Jay Helfert

[gulfportdoc]

Hey, ole buddy! I'm just re-reading your fine book, Pool Wars (2009), and find myself enjoying it even more than I did on first reading. You have a good memory, which you share with Danny Diliberto and Grady Mathews-- I think because you, like they, weren't a druggie or drunk, which so many were.

I was in L.A. at the same times that you were, specifically '68-'71. I know that you hung out at Ye Billiard Den on Sta Monica, but do you recall a tavern on the Sunset strip that had some bar box action? It was on the south side of Sunset, and I believe it was on the corner of Sunset and Alta Loma. There was a bar box in the front, and one in the back. But the good players were always fighting it out for $2-$5 a game on the front table. Anyway, just a shot in the dark.

I usually played out in the Valley at Chopsticks on Victory, or Tiff Payne's N. Hyd Billiards on Magnolia. My first hangout room had been Mr. Pockets on 6th near Western in L.A. I did visit Ye Billiard Den a few times, but the tariff was a little too much for me in those days. Likewise I only visited Hollywood & Western sporadically.

Hope you're well, my man.

~Doc

 

[middleofnowhere]

Hey, ole buddy! I'm just re-reading your fine book, Pool Wars (2009), and find myself enjoying it even more than I did on first reading. You have a good memory, which you share with Danny Diliberto and Grady Mathews-- I think because you, like they, weren't a druggie or drunk, which so many were.

I was in L.A. at the same times that you were, specifically '68-'71. I know that you hung out at Ye Billiard Den on Sta Monica, but do you recall a tavern on the Sunset strip that had some bar box action? It was on the south side of Sunset, and I believe it was on the corner of Sunset and Alta Loma. There was a bar box in the front, and one in the back. But the good players were always fighting it out for $2-$5 a game on the front table. Anyway, just a shot in the dark.

I usually played out in the Valley at Chopsticks on Victory, or Tiff Payne's N. Hyd Billiards on Magnolia. My first hangout room had been Mr. Pockets on 6th near Western in L.A. I did visit Ye Billiard Den a few times, but the tariff was a little too much for me in those days. Likewise I only visited Hollywood & Western sporadically.

Hope you're well, my man.

~Doc

Coincidentally, I just ordered a copy of Jays book. I used to have like every book written on pool. When I got away from it a little bit at least mentally I found myself putting them on eBay and selling them all.

Not that long ago I just got another copy of "the bank shot and other great robberies" by Minnesota fats. Not really a great book but kind of a fun read. I think my pool interest has really been rekindled a lot from just reading this forum.

 

[kling&allen]

Don't forget to get Jay's second book, "More Pool Wars." Just as good as the first.

 

[pt109]

I got both of Jay’s books....I enjoyed them.
I got there a little before Jay....I really liked the Tropicana.
...and I liked the lighting at 4th and Main...some felt that was dangerous...I was treated well.

 

[arnaldo]

I usually played out in the Valley at Chopsticks on Victory, or Tiff Payne's N. Hyd Billiards on Magnolia. My first hangout room had been Mr. Pockets on 6th near Western in L.A. I did visit Ye Billiard Den a few times, but the tariff was a little too much for me in those days. Likewise I only visited Hollywood & Western sporadically.

I played at Tiff's place from 1963 to '69 while toolmaking/designing at Lockheed, Burbank. Tiff sold it to oldtime pro Red Baker who was a contemporary and longtime friend of Mosconi (one of the few pros who could rightfully say that). Willie did a few exhibitions there for Red and us dazzled locals. Red later sold the place and opened a room elsewhere in the SF Valley. Fellow AZBer, Bill Marop played at Red's new place for a couple years as he and I have discussed enjoyably.

At the N. Hywd room I used to frequently see and chat with both Vic Morrow and Billy Kenyon who both worked at Uni studios a few miles south. Billy did stunt work on a number of films and TV shows there, and Morrow of course was the lead in the very successful, years-long war series: "Combat". They both loved 14.1 -- Morrow, an enthused C-level player, and Billy a top regional semi-pro who entered several of the Straight Pool Invitational nationals that Tiff annually co-ran with Fred Whalen throughout the 60s and early '70s in the huge downtown L.A. Elks club. Tiff was a top 3C player who often sparred (and practiced) with Allen Gilbert who had won countless state and national titles in 3C.

Arnaldo

 

[Fatboy]

One thing I’d like to note-Jays books are not embellished or any fluff, they are a accurate account of exactly what happened and how it happened. I was around for lots of stuff that happened in those books-certainly not all of it as I only started in pool in 85. But the lots of things in his books I was there for-not the parts about me. Other stuff and they are spot on. They are a great recollection of our history as pool players-not fiction to sell more books. I’m very glad Jay chose to be honest and not pull some write Hollywood story tails just to sell more copies. He didn’t need to! It happened as Jay wrote them. I was there too-sometimes, again for parts of the books I wasn’t mentioned in. The parts with me are a precise recollection of facts! That made a hell of a story.

best,
Fatboy<———lucky to have been around fir part of those days & honored to be in thr books.

Fun fact: I took a break from pool, didn’t know Jay wrote a 2nd book, I hadn’t seen Jay in a coupe years. But we are pool layers we pick up where we left off. So one day I was in the neighborhood and go to Jays house hang out, ate, fell asleep watching baseball (so did Jay) woke up after the game. On the way out Jay says “hold on I got something for you”. He handed me a copy of his 2nd book. I thought cool volume 2, this will be great to read. I loved the first one. I had no idea…….I’ll leave it at that. Thanks Jay . That’s a true story too. I had no idea……what’s that mean? Read the book.

Like AZB here we are. And I haven’t played 5 hours in the last 5 years. Don’t matter it’s the life we chose. The real ones anyways-you know who you are.

 

[gulfportdoc]

I played at Tiff's place from 1963 to '69 while toolmaking/designing at Lockheed, Burbank. Tiff sold it to oldtime pro Red Baker who was a contemporary and longtime friend of Mosconi (one of the few pros who could rightfully say that). Willie did a few exhibitions there for Red and us dazzled locals. Red later sold the place and opened a room elsewhere in the SF Valley. Fellow AZBer, Bill Marop played at Red's new place for a couple years as he and I have discussed enjoyably.

At the N. Hywd room I used to frequently see and chat with both Vic Morrow and Billy Kenyon who both worked at Uni studios a few miles south. Billy did stunt work on a number of films and TV shows there, and Morrow of course was the lead in the very successful, years-long war series: "Combat". They both loved 14.1 -- Morrow, an enthused C-level player, and Billy a top regional semi-pro who entered several of the Straight Pool Invitational nationals that Tiff annually co-ran with Fred Whalen throughout the 60s and early '70s in the huge downtown L.A. Elks club. Tiff was a top 3C player who often sparred (and practiced) with Allen Gilbert who had won countless state and national titles in 3C.

Arnaldo

Hey, Arnaldo-- Glad you chimed in. I feel certain we must have seen each other at Tiff's. As you say, Al Gilbert played there, along with up-and-comer Frank Torres, and some Japanese kid who was hitting them pretty sporty. Howard ___, and Bert Schrager played there. Bert had just started making cues.

I'd fallen for billiards earlier in my life but didn't start playing it seriously until starting at Chopsticks. From there it was natural to move over to Tiff's. I forget if he had 9 or 12 billiard tables in the back room-- where most of the players frequented.

Yes, there were a lot of guys from the film industry that frequented the place, probably because Tiff and his wife had been hoofers in films. You'd get writers, comedians, an actor or two. Even the hired table cleaner/janitor for awhile was Patsy Lowe, the one time famous prize fighter who knocked down Max Baer. The place had a great atmosphere and style, which I hated to leave when a band I was in moved up to the Santa Cruz area, which I'm thinking was in '70 or '71. Great days! ~Doc

 

[CESSNA10]

One thing I’d like to note-Jays books are not embellished or any fluff, they are a accurate account of exactly what happened and how it happened. I was around for lots of stuff that happened in those books-certainly not all of it as I only started in pool in 85. But the lots of things in his books I was there for-not the parts about me. Other stuff and they are spot on. They are a great recollection of our history as pool players-not fiction to sell more books. I’m very glad Jay chose to be honest and not pull some write Hollywood story tails just to sell more copies. He didn’t need to! It happened as Jay wrote them. I was there too-sometimes, again for parts of the books I wasn’t mentioned in. The parts with me are a precise recollection of facts! That made a hell of a story.

best,
Fatboy<———lucky to have been around fir part of those days & honored to be in thr books.

Fun fact: I took a break from pool, didn’t know Jay wrote a 2nd book, I hadn’t seen Jay in a coupe years. But we are pool layers we pick up where we left off. So one day I was in the neighborhood and go to Jays house hang out, ate, fell asleep watching baseball (so did Jay) woke up after the game. On the way out Jay says “hold on I got something for you”. He handed me a copy of his 2nd book. I thought cool volume 2, this will be great to read. I loved the first one. I had no idea…….I’ll leave it at that. Thanks Jay . That’s a true story too. I had no idea……what’s that mean? Read the book.

Like AZB here we are. And I haven’t played 5 hours in the last 5 years. Don’t matter it’s the life we chose. The real ones anyways-you know who you are.

Hey, Jay is one of the good guys

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hey, Arnaldo-- Glad you chimed in. I feel certain we must have seen each other at Tiff's. As you say, Al Gilbert played there, along with up-and-comer Frank Torres, and some Japanese kid who was hitting them pretty sporty. Howard ___, and Bert Schrager played there. Bert had just started making cues.

I'd fallen for billiards earlier in my life but didn't start playing it seriously until starting at Chopsticks. From there it was natural to move over to Tiff's. I forget if he had 9 or 12 billiard tables in the back room-- where most of the players frequented.

Yes, there were a lot of guys from the film industry that frequented the place, probably because Tiff and his wife had been hoofers in films. You'd get writers, comedians, an actor or two. Even the hired table cleaner/janitor for awhile was Patsy Lowe, the one time famous prize fighter who knocked down Max Baer. The place had a great atmosphere and style, which I hated to leave when a band I was in moved up to the Santa Cruz area, which I'm thinking was in '70 or '71. Great days! ~Doc

Doc, were you following me? I lived a few blocks from Ye Billiard Den 68-70 and in Santa Cruz 70-71. Too busy wandering to be bitten by the pool bug yet...

pj
chgo

 

[arnaldo]

Hey, Arnaldo-- Glad you chimed in. I feel certain we must have seen each other at Tiff's. . . . I forget if he had 9 or 12 billiard tables in the back room-- where most of the players frequented.
. . .Great days! ~Doc

Unquestionably had to have seen and spoken to each other frequently in there and maybe in the coffee shop a few doors away on the corner where Red Baker's future wife was a waitress.

(Maybe you remember crazy Eddie with the nagging mother. Eddie was a nice looking kid, highly eccentric with an acerbic wit, about 21 years-old, very talented 3C player, hoping for a career as an operatic tenor and was studying hard with a vocal coach for a couple years) Incredible voice -- would burst into high Cs even Ds when we drove down to the races at Hollywood Park a couple times a month and knew every Italian aria with respectable Italian diction.

I remember about nine tables in the front room, then in the back room: two or three levels of spectator bleachers and always about a dozen cigar-smoking retirees spectating the two 3C tables and the two Brunswick 9-footers for late-night pool gambling.

Here's a shot of me in 1963 when I started playing at Tiff's place (looked about the same during the years you played there). I'm 27 years old here, about an inch and a half over 6 feet, and 180 lbs. Became hooked on heavy bodybuilding in '69 and got to 225 solid by 1974 at Gold's in Venice Beach.

-- Arnaldo

 

[westcoast]

Unquestionably had to have seen and spoken to each other frequently in there and maybe in the coffee shop a few doors away on the corner where Red Baker's future wife was a waitress.

(Maybe you remember crazy Eddie with the nagging mother. Eddie was a nice looking kid, highly eccentric with an acerbic wit, about 21 years-old, very talented 3C player, hoping for a career as an operatic tenor and was studying hard with a vocal coach for a couple years) Incredible voice -- would burst into high Cs even Ds when we drove down to the races at Hollywood Park a couple times a month and knew every Italian aria with respectable Italian diction.

I remember about nine tables in the front room, then in the back room: two or three levels of spectator bleachers and always about a dozen cigar-smoking retirees spectating the two 3C tables and the two Brunswick 9-footers for late-night pool gambling.

Here's a shot of me in 1963 when I started playing at Tiff's place (looked about the same during the years you played there). I'm 27 years old here, about an inch and a half over 6 feet, and 180 lbs. Became hooked on heavy bodybuilding in '69 and got to 225 solid by 1974 at Gold's in Venice Beach.
View attachment 607460

-- Arnaldo

Did you know guys like Arnold, Robby Robinson, Franco Columbo, Ken Waller and Frank Zane? (the legends from "Pumping Iron")

 

[Fatboy]

Did you know guys like Arnold, Robby Robinson, Franco Columbo, Ken Waller and Frank Zane? (the legends from "Pumping Iron")

The original Golds gym crew, pretty cool.

 

[jay helfert]

Hey, ole buddy! I'm just re-reading your fine book, Pool Wars (2009), and find myself enjoying it even more than I did on first reading. You have a good memory, which you share with Danny Diliberto and Grady Mathews-- I think because you, like they, weren't a druggie or drunk, which so many were.

I was in L.A. at the same times that you were, specifically '68-'71. I know that you hung out at Ye Billiard Den on Sta Monica, but do you recall a tavern on the Sunset strip that had some bar box action? It was on the south side of Sunset, and I believe it was on the corner of Sunset and Alta Loma. There was a bar box in the front, and one in the back. But the good players were always fighting it out for $2-$5 a game on the front table. Anyway, just a shot in the dark.

I usually played out in the Valley at Chopsticks on Victory, or Tiff Payne's N. Hyd Billiards on Magnolia. My first hangout room had been Mr. Pockets on 6th near Western in L.A. I did visit Ye Billiard Den a few times, but the tariff was a little too much for me in those days. Likewise I only visited Hollywood & Western sporadically.

Hope you're well, my man.

~Doc

Hey Doc, thanks for this thread. I do remember the bar you're talking about, but forget the name right now. I kept hearing about people making little scores in there ($100+) but I never got a game bigger than a dollar or two. As you know, in my Hollywood days I traveled the entire :L.A. circuit looking for action every day. I knew every poolroom and bar from Santa Monica in the west to Hollywood & Western midtown, to 4th and Main downtown. I played all over the Valley, including Chopsticks (the owner of the place was the best I ever saw playing Chopticks pool with two cues), N. Hollywood Billiards, House of Billiards, Big Momma's and others, and of course I frequented Mr. Pockets and spent less time at the Tropicana (tough action), plus excursions south to Long Beach and Orange County. To the east was the Golden Cue and Five Points. So many poolrooms then (well over a hundred, maybe two hundred) and a thousand bar spots, all in the L.A. area. I rarely went as far out as Riverside, Bakersfield or Santa Barbara. I didn't need to. Doc, I'm pretty sure I knew you from Ye Billiard Den or maybe College Billiards in San Diego. Right?

Allen Gilbert (aka Al Gold - his hustler name) was a good friend of mine and the best 3C player on the West Coast until Frank Torres emerged. Frank later moved to Vegas where he owned the Crystal Palace near downtown for a long time. That was the action room in Vegas in the 80's and 90's.

Patrick, you are talking about Howard Ikeda who, who worked for Schrager for a period of time. He turned out to be a pretty good hustler and traveled all over the country for most of his life (he's gone now).

Arnaldo, Billy Kenyon was a helluva poolplayer and it took a champion (Danny D.) to beat him. He had a crippled son that he cared for on his own and needed the steady employ he got from the studios. Billy was good at everything - golf (scratch), Tennis (college level), ping pong and could play some mean basketball too. He was just a natural athlete and made a very good stuntman. He was tough as nails too! I think he is still alive. I sure hope so.

I worked as a referee for Fred Whalen at his Invitational 14.1 events at the Elks Club. He paid me the lordly sum of $5 a match and I would do two or three matches a day. The best part is I got in free and got to hang in the practice room with all the champions. They were ALL there! Lassiter, Crane, Balsis, Murphy, Jimmy Moore, Danny Gartner, Frank McGown, Al Coslosky, Joe Russo, Eddie Beauchene (Detroit Whitey), Johnny Ervolino, Jack Breit (Jersey Red), Al Bonife (New York Blackie), Ed Kelly, Ronnie Allen, Richie Florence, Marvin Henderson, Diliberto, Lou Butera, Dallas West, Grady, Don Watson, Al Miller, Danny Jones, Ray Martin, Mizerak, Hopkins, Jim Rempe, Jimmy Marino, Gene Nagy and a whole lot more. Don Willis was always there, making book and studying the newspaper morning line on sports. I was the proverbial fly on the wall.

It's cool to know there are other old timers here who can remember those days. It was a good time to be around pool! I didn't know how lucky I was at the time. It was never boring. All I knew is that I wanted to own my own poolroom.

 

[arnaldo]

Did you know guys like Arnold, Robby Robinson, Franco Columbo, Ken Waller and Frank Zane? (the legends from "Pumping Iron")

Knew and trained with, and spotted for all of them and dozens more who were regularly featured in the Joe Weider and Bob Hoffman mags. I knew and very much liked Dave Draper and Lou Ferrigno also, when he first began visiting from Brooklyn, and LA agents were circling him for film projects . . . as a sort of much-lower "quote" -- (acting fee) -- (at the time) version of Arnold.
Zane was a skilled math teacher at Venice High School and easily one of the most intellectual and chemically-knowledgeable men to ever compete. His nutrition and supplement advice helped everyone around him, and others who traveled-in just to meet and confer with him. That muscularity and definition he accomplished in building on a *much* smaller frame & bone structure has never been exceeded. Builders in his body-weight class are more massive-appearing today, but none are better defined, proportioned and balanced than Frank was. Not even close.

Arnaldo

 

[gulfportdoc]

Doc, were you following me? I lived a few blocks from Ye Billiard Den 68-70 and in Santa Cruz 70-71. Too busy wandering to be bitten by the pool bug yet...

pj
chgo

Ha! I never knew that, PJ. We lived in Felton, near Ben Lomand, 9 miles NE of Santa Cruz. Used to drive into town to play in a room, the owner of which liked to gamble. We usually played 3C, and I mostly prevailed for good pocket money. The band I was in lived there for less than a year, then moved up to the Eureka, CA area (Trinidad). That's another story. Hey, where have you been on 1p.o? There's a pool ball physics thread that would be of interest to you. Cheers! ~Doc

 

[jay helfert]

Ha! I never knew that, PJ. We lived in Felton, near Ben Lomand, 9 miles NE of Santa Cruz. Used to drive into town to play in a room, the owner of which liked to gamble. We usually played 3C, and I mostly prevailed for good pocket money. The band I was in lived there for less than a year, then moved up to the Eureka, CA area (Trinidad). That's another story. Hey, where have you been on 1p.o? There's a pool ball physics thread that would be of interest to you. Cheers! ~Doc

I spent time up there in Ben Lomand. My ex moved there and I would go up to visit my kids way back when. I think you're talking about Al Markasky (spell check) who owns that room in Santa Cruz. He likes to play Bank Pool too. Many, many moons ago I was up in Ben Lomand and saw an Ad in the local paper that they were having the Santa Cruz City Eight Ball tournament that weekend. I went down there and won that tournament, even though the owner back then did everything he could to stack the deck against me. I had to muscle up to get paid the $500 first prize. This was long before Al M. took over that place.

P.S. It's beautiful country up there! I used to take my kids up to Boulder Creek and visit the state park up there. God's country!

 

[gulfportdoc]

Unquestionably had to have seen and spoken to each other frequently in there and maybe in the coffee shop a few doors away on the corner where Red Baker's future wife was a waitress.

(Maybe you remember crazy Eddie with the nagging mother. Eddie was a nice looking kid, highly eccentric with an acerbic wit, about 21 years-old, very talented 3C player, hoping for a career as an operatic tenor and was studying hard with a vocal coach for a couple years) Incredible voice -- would burst into high Cs even Ds when we drove down to the races at Hollywood Park a couple times a month and knew every Italian aria with respectable Italian diction.

I remember about nine tables in the front room, then in the back room: two or three levels of spectator bleachers and always about a dozen cigar-smoking retirees spectating the two 3C tables and the two Brunswick 9-footers for late-night pool gambling.

Here's a shot of me in 1963 when I started playing at Tiff's place (looked about the same during the years you played there). I'm 27 years old here, about an inch and a half over 6 feet, and 180 lbs. Became hooked on heavy bodybuilding in '69 and got to 225 solid by 1974 at Gold's in Venice Beach.
View attachment 607460

-- Arnaldo

Oh yes, I definitely recognize you. You actually have a few years on me. I was born in '44. When I was going to Tiff's, there were two N. Hyd rooms. Tiff's North Hollywood Billiards was on Magnolia, just a couple of blocks east of the Hyd Fwy and the park. There was a coffee shop (still there) almost directly across the street.

The other room, which may have been Red Baker's (who was a good 3C player himself), was over on, I think, Vineland Ave. (a north/south street). You might be conflating the two rooms. I was only at Red's once or twice. He only had a couple of billiard tables, but I do remember there was a tile floor. I'm thinking that Red would occasionally play the short race 3C tournaments at Tiff's. Tiff's had pool tables in the front, and in the back were all the billiard tables (9?) on a carpeted floor. The counter and the rest rooms separated the front and back. I don't believe there were any bleachers at the Magnolia room.

There aren't many pictures of me that aren't band pictures from that time. Here's one of me from 1968. I'm on the left. Frank Zappa is on the right. But the pic might ring a bell.

 

[jay helfert]

Oh yes, I definitely recognize you. You actually have a few years on me. I was born in '44. When I was going to Tiff's, there were two N. Hyd rooms. Tiff's North Hollywood Billiards was on Magnolia, just a couple of blocks east of the Hyd Fwy and the park. There was a coffee shop (still there) almost directly across the street.

The other room, which may have been Red Baker's (who was a good 3C player himself), was over on, I think, Vineland Ave. (a north/south street). You might be conflating the two rooms. I was only at Red's once or twice. He only had a couple of billiard tables, but I do remember there was a tile floor. I'm thinking that Red would occasionally play the short race 3C tournaments at Tiff's. Tiff's had pool tables in the front, and in the back were all the billiard tables (9?) on a carpeted floor. The counter and the rest rooms separated the front and back. I don't believe there were any bleachers at the Magnolia room.

There aren't many pictures of me that aren't band pictures from that time. Here's one of me from 1968. I'm on the left. Frank Zappa is on the right. But the pic might ring a bell.
View attachment 607490

Ha Ha Doc. You look like hundreds of other hippie kids who used to come into the Billiard Den in Hollywood. Smitty was the best poolplayer of the hippie crowd. He could play me to a draw, so I left him alone after a while. I had an occasion to visit Zappa's pad on Laurel Canyon one time, but I don't remember much (other than all the friendly girls) because I was high on acid at the time. True that.

Also born in 1944. It must have been a good year for poolroom bums.

 

[westcoast]

Knew and trained with, and spotted for all of them and dozens more who were regularly featured in the Joe Weider and Bob Hoffman mags. I knew and very much liked Dave Draper and Lou Ferrigno also, when he first began visiting from Brooklyn, and LA agents were circling him for film projects . . . as a sort of much-lower "quote" -- (acting fee) -- (at the time) version of Arnold.
Zane was a skilled math teacher at Venice High School and easily one of the most intellectual and chemically-knowledgeable men to ever compete. His nutrition and supplement advice helped everyone around him, and others who traveled-in just to meet and confer with him. That muscularity and definition he accomplished in building on a *much* smaller frame & bone structure has never been exceeded. Builders in his body-weight class are more massive-appearing today, but none are better defined, proportioned and balanced than Frank was. Not even close.

Arnaldo

Very cool.

I train at Venice Gold's Gym on Hampton Road. Some of the guys from that era are still around. Arnold works out in the morning- he brings his bodyguards, but he is friendly- I've spoken to him a few times. Robby Robinson is still training very seriously- looks great in his 70s. Tom Platz trains some guys here and there. Lou Ferrigno used to make regular appearances but I haven't seen him in a while.

Even though those guys used steroids, it was much more moderate than the guys today- hence why many of them are still alive or lived into their 70s and beyond. Now many of the pro bodybuilders develop horrible ailments- kidney failure, heart attacks, blood clots leading to amputations (Flex Wheeler) and are lucky to see 50- they took things too far with stuff like GH, insulin, and diuretics.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We lived in Felton, near Ben Lomand, 9 miles NE of Santa Cruz.

Now you're just messin' with me - me 'n my girl lived in Felton too, in a cabin up a sparsely populated side road off of 9 (forget the name).

The main thing I remember about Felton is that the neighbors' dogs ran in a pack, and if we left our front and back doors open (which we often did) they'd charge right through. Cracked us up.

pj
chgo