Back swing - pause/no pause is focusing on the wrong area of the stroke!

I guess it really depends on your definition of a pause. I just watched videos of Filler and Shane. On most shots, they have a definite pause at the end of the backstroke. It's only about one-quarter to one-half of a second, but it's there. If I knew how to take snippets of the videos I watched and post them here, I would.

Other Pro pool players that have a noticeable pause at the end of the backstroke...

Alyisis Yapp
Neil's Feijen

That's too real fine examples. I could come up with many more. Like I said, the pause doesn't have to be very long. A half of a second is all it has to be. It needs to just be long enough to release the tension on the tricep, and gradually apply tension to the bicep. It becomes problematic when you have tension on both of those muscles at the same time.

For me, I think it's the mental and physical sides that you mentioned earlier. If I can release tension on my tricep before I start my forward motion, I tend to be a lot smoother.
 
My stroke has gotten smoother over the years as I've improved as a pool player. It's still a little fast, but there has been a lot of improvement there. So for me, the jerkiness of my stroke was due to a lack of confidence. And the lack of confidence was due to a myriad of issues, but the biggest one was actually a history of randomly dogging balls that I felt I had aimed and set up properly on.

And those randomly dogged balls were due to stance/alignment errors. It all compounded for me. It wasn't until I started feeling very sure that shots would drop when I properly "beared down" and "minded my work" that I started to "relax" a bit on my stroke, which in turn made it smoother and more accurate.

Bad habits beget bad habits, and good habits beget good habits. That's why it's so hard to work on things in isolation in pool, especially for lower-level and intermediate players. There's usually so much wrong (even when it's just several very small issues) that trying to fix one or two mechanical flaws is almost always a one step forward, two steps back situation. Especially without someone watching them and giving feedback. I know I went down a lot of dead ends trying to develop a solid stance and setup.

Also, I missed a difficult shot in league a few weeks ago that was essentially a do-or-die shot for the match. I felt an enormous amount of pressure before shooting it and was more nervous than I've been in a very long time. The result was that I butchered the shot worse than I've butchered any shot in quite some time. And I noticed that my stroke was absolutely awful and very, very rushed. Every aspect of my mechanics fell apart. The lack of confidence completely changed my stroke into something I didn't recognize, but it was actually my "normal" stroke from years ago when I had essentially zero confidence in my game.
 
I guess it really depends on your definition of a pause. I just watched videos of Filler and Shane. On most shots, they have a definite pause at the end of the backstroke. It's only about one-quarter to one-half of a second, but it's there. If I knew how to take snippets of the videos I watched and post them here, I would.

Other Pro pool players that have a noticeable pause at the end of the backstroke...

Alyisis Yapp
Neil's Feijen

That's too real fine examples. I could come up with many more. Like I said, the pause doesn't have to be very long. A half of a second is all it has to be. It needs to just be long enough to release the tension on the tricep, and gradually apply tension to the bicep. It becomes problematic when you have tension on both of those muscles at the same time.

For me, I think it's the mental and physical sides that you mentioned earlier. If I can release tension on my tricep before I start my forward motion, I tend to be a lot smoother.

Yes, sometimes it's hard to define who has a pause and who doesn't. For example, talking about Filler. There is a run he makes at 9:50 in the link below. When he shoots the 5 and 6 he definitely comes to a stop on his back swing. It's not a dramitic freeze, but it's definitely a stop. But then when he shoots the 7 and the 8 he doesn't pause at all. He doesn't rush his transition, but he has no pause. So while Filler sometimes pauses and ALWAYS smooth transitions, he is not a robot that has a consistent mechanical .5-1 second freeze at the end of his backswing.

I understand many top players do use a pause. But watch Orcullo, Aranas, or many of the world's best and they do not. I have no problem with talking about what the pause does for you or how it can be beneficial. The problem I have is when people get INSISTENT.

Same with the shoulder drop. A top player told me once that a shoulder drop is REQUIRED for world class pool. He pointed to Ronnie O'Sullivan. He talked about how Johan coached the MC and excluded players who didn't have an elbow drop because he thought it was that important. This player was trying to get me to build an elbow drop into my game.

I was skeptical so I looked up the top 30 players by fargo rate and spent an hour or two looking at their firm power shots. About 65% of them dropped their shoulders. About 35% of them didn't, including JL Chang who is one of my favorites of all time.

I don't mind this guy talking about the shoulder drop as a technique used by many to ensure a good acceleration and follow through. But when they talk about it as a superior technique utilized by all the best players in the world, proven by the snooker players who are genetically superior humans, well, that's when he lost me.

In short, there are things that are optional and things that are required. A smooth transition is required. An accelerating swing which results in some follow through is required. A pause is optional. A shoulder drop is optional. Do you disagree with this? Are you making the case that a pause is REQUIRED?

 
We're talking about different things.

Most top players do use a pause at the cue ball. This is during the transition from the aim/tip guy to the stroke guy (referenced in an earlier post above). I agree with JJ.

Some players use a pause at the back of their practice swings. This is during the transition from the back swing to the forward swing.

Both have merit. Neither will prevent a jerky forward swing which is what I'm focused on in this thread.
Okay I see what you are saying. The title of this thread seems to give ME the impression that pause is not important.
 
My stroke has gotten smoother over the years as I've improved as a pool player. It's still a little fast, but there has been a lot of improvement there. So for me, the jerkiness of my stroke was due to a lack of confidence. And the lack of confidence was due to a myriad of issues, but the biggest one was actually a history of randomly dogging balls that I felt I had aimed and set up properly on.

And those randomly dogged balls were due to stance/alignment errors. It all compounded for me. It wasn't until I started feeling very sure that shots would drop when I properly "beared down" and "minded my work" that I started to "relax" a bit on my stroke, which in turn made it smoother and more accurate.

Bad habits beget bad habits, and good habits beget good habits. That's why it's so hard to work on things in isolation in pool, especially for lower-level and intermediate players. There's usually so much wrong (even when it's just several very small issues) that trying to fix one or two mechanical flaws is almost always a one step forward, two steps back situation. Especially without someone watching them and giving feedback. I know I went down a lot of dead ends trying to develop a solid stance and setup.

Also, I missed a difficult shot in league a few weeks ago that was essentially a do-or-die shot for the match. I felt an enormous amount of pressure before shooting it and was more nervous than I've been in a very long time. The result was that I butchered the shot worse than I've butchered any shot in quite some time. And I noticed that my stroke was absolutely awful and very, very rushed. Every aspect of my mechanics fell apart. The lack of confidence completely changed my stroke into something I didn't recognize, but it was actually my "normal" stroke from years ago when I had essentially zero confidence in my game.
Makes total sense. Fundamentals are complicated, span physical and mental, and are often connected with each other.

My main point is that for people working on their fundamentals the job isn't done until the forward stroke is smooth. That is the ultimate test of cuing. Too many people are satisfied with a pause and don't know the true test of a smooth forward stroke.

As for the rest, hey, we are all human. We are not cue testing robots and never will be. I break down physically and mentally all the time. The only way not to do that is to hide in your basement or play weak players or situations that don't test you. In other words, my definition of a true competitor is someone who chokes and loses, because only true competitors put themselves in that position. I applaud your valor in battle and hope you enjoy the fight, win or lose.
 
There is a run he makes at 9:50 in the link below. When he shoots the 5 and 6 he definitely comes to a stop on his back swing. It's not a dramitic freeze, but it's definitely a stop. But then when he shoots the 7 and the 8 he doesn't pause at all.

At 9:15 in the video, Filler shoots a shot that he has to hit firmly, and he takes his time because he is jacked up over the 9-ball. He carefully takes several, short practice swings, then on the final stroke he doesn't pause. Sometimes, I think Filler is so casual with shots that he doesn't perform his complete routine. Filler also drops his elbow on that shot.
 
At 9:15 in the video, Filler shoots a shot that he has to hit firmly, and he takes his time because he is jacked up over the 9-ball. He carefully takes several, short practice swings, then on the final stroke he doesn't pause. Sometimes, I think Filler is so casual with shots that he doesn't perform his complete routine.


Fair enough.

Let me restate my overarching question for pause advocates. Do you feel the pause is a requirement? Or is an optional technique?

I agree the pause is a technique that has some merit to many players. I disagree with any that say it is a requirement. They point out top players that pause, I can point to many more that truly don't (including Orcullo, Aranas, etc).

On the other hand, I do believe that a smooth slow acceleration is required. I would be perfectly willing to go frame by frame on all of the top 30 in the world. Many would pause, many wouldn't pause, but ALL would have a slow acceleration (i.e. the first several frames of their forward swing would move the cue only inches, the last frame or two the cue would be moving quickly and cover all of the distance).
 
Here's an experiment you all can do while sitting in front of your computer...

Tense up your upper arm muscles tightly. Then relax. Take a mental note of how long it takes those muscles to go from tense to full relaxed. You can feel it. Takes about a half a second for those muscles to completely relax.
 
On the other hand, I do believe that a smooth slow acceleration is required.
I am unsure about "slow". I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks, and it seems to me that if you need to hit a shot with a lot of speed, and you start your forward stroke slowly, then haven't you reduced the distance you are left with to get the cue stick up to speed? For example, say your backstroke moves the cue tip 10" back from the CB , and you start the forward swing slowly for 2", then you only have 8" to get your stroke up to the speed necessary for the shot. On the other hand, if you start accelerating "swiftly" for the whole 10", it seems your forward stroke *could* be smoother. It seems possible to me, that a player could start his forward swing smoothly and slowly for 2", then feel the need to "catch up" and jerk his arm in an attempt to accelerate quickly the last 8".

For a maximum speed shot, can you really accelerate slowly to begin the forward swing?
 
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I didn't see anyone advocating for a required pause, just that it can be very useful. Whereas, you were more dismissive of the idea. It actually seems counter-productive to NOT advocate for a pause when your ultimate goal is to start slowly on the forward stroke. If you really believe it's that important to start your forward stroke slowly -- then shouldn't we be starting from zero? Can't get any slower than that.
 
I didn't see anyone advocating for a required pause, just that it can be very useful. Whereas, you were more dismissive of the idea. It actually seems counter-productive to NOT advocate for a pause when your ultimate goal is to start slowly on the forward stroke. If you really believe it's that important to start your forward stroke slowly -- then shouldn't we be starting from zero? Can't get any slower than that.
I'm not against a pause. I'm against saying it's required. And I'm most against putting the focus on whether or not to pause as opposed to the forward swing.
 
This is were emulating pros can be tricky. I'm sure you're right about their acceleration as I don't doubt you've looked at it, but it's not so easy to copy what someone has done for 2 million balls. But slowing down your cue and trying the pause may get you on the right path.
 
I am unsure about "slow". I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks, and it seems to me that if you need to hit a shot with a lot of speed, and you start your forward stroke slowly, then haven't you reduced the distance you are left with to get the cue stick up to speed? For example, say your backstroke moves the cue tip 10" back from the CB , and you start the forward swing slowly for 2", then you only have 8" to get your stroke up to the speed necessary for the shot. On the other hand, if you start accelerating "swiftly" for the whole 10", it seems your forward stroke *could* be smoother. It seems possible to me, that a player could start his forward swing smoothly and slowly for 2", then feel the need to "catch up" and jerk his arm in an attempt to accelerate quickly the last 8".

For a maximum speed shot, can you really accelerate slowly to begin the forward swing?
Yes! All of the shots you see here he made after a complete stop on the backswing. And there's one thing about elbow drop... Elbow drop is necessary on power shots. It can't be helped. But it happens after the cue ball is gone and on it's way.
 
I am unsure about "slow". I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks, and it seems to me that if you need to hit a shot with a lot of speed, and you start your forward stroke slowly, then haven't you reduced the distance you are left with to get the cue stick up to speed? For example, say your backstroke moves the cue tip 10" back from the CB , and you start the forward swing slowly for 2", then you only have 8" to get your stroke up to the speed necessary for the shot. On the other hand, if you start accelerating "swiftly" for the whole 10", it seems your forward stroke *could* be smoother. It seems possible to me, that a player could start his forward swing smoothly and slowly for 2", then feel the need to "catch up" and jerk his arm in an attempt to accelerate quickly the last 8".

For a maximum speed shot, can you really accelerate slowly to begin the forward swing?
I am very sure that power can be achieved with a slow start to the swing. I have a great example and explanation in the thread linked below (the pause in the pool stroke).

There is a difference between speed and acceleration. The acceleration should be constant. The speed should be increasing. If you drop a ball off a building it has constant acceleration the entire way to the ground. Yet at the beginning of the fall it is moving slower than at the end.

Try this. Use the side of your cue stick to rake one of the balls, and get the ball rolling quickly. You don't want to bang your cue stick so you never want a ton of force between the ball and your cue. You just press the cue stick to the cue ball softly, then get the ball rolling, then you keep adding that small force continuously and you'll see you can get the ball rolling very quickly by the time you release. This is how a good stroke should feel. There is never a big burst of force between your arm and your cue, just a very small force applied constantly through the entire stroke.


 
I'm not against a pause. I'm against saying it's required. And I'm most against putting the focus on whether or not to pause as opposed to the forward swing.
Okay. I'm going to revisit your advice here and see if I can't get a better feel what you're talking about. Hopefully, I'll have an epiphany.

Thanks for sharing.
 
Yes! All of the shots you see here he made after a complete stop on the backswing. And there's one thing about elbow drop... Elbow drop is necessary on power shots. It can't be helped. But it happens after the cue ball is gone and on it's way.

Buckshot, we simply disagree on the facts here. You say an elbow drop is required on power shots. I say it isn't. At this point all we can do is circle and escalate. I'm not interested in doing this.

To the others reading, I base my claim that an elbow drop is optional on two things: 1) I spent hours looking at the top 30 Fargo Rated players in the world on Youtube, found shots where they used a lot of force, and counted how many dropped their elbow. A good 35% of them had no elbow drop. The proof is in the pudding. 2) I don't utilize an elbow drop. I can generate all the power I need.

I looked into this because I was curious about whether or not I was doing something wrong. After watching JL Chang hit some amazing stroke shots without an elbow drop I concluded I didn't need to mess with my game. Maybe I'll never play top flight snooker, but I would settle for playing Chang's speed.
 
I'm not against a pause. I'm against saying it's required. And I'm most against putting the focus on whether or not to pause as opposed to the forward swing.
I believe a pause at the cue ball is required to transition from conscious thinking during the practice strokes to the sub-conscious/muscle memory during the final stroke. I also believe that the final forward stroke with smooth/constant acceleration is also required as you are advocating here, but that occurs through building muscle memory of good stroke fundamentals.
 
Finally someone posted this.

Great post! Similar description below.


A beautiful stroke with good timing is critical to high level pool. We all know that rushing the stroke is a common blunder. Unfortunately many people do the wrong things to try to fix it. Say there are three parts of the stroke:

1) The back swing
2) The transition
3) The forward swing

Where most people struggle is rushing the FORWARD STROKE. They jam their cue stick forward which leads to inaccuracy on their aim, tip, and swing speed (all three variables of the shot go haywire!). There are many reasons people do this. Some is because they've never learned the feel of a good swing and so use way more cue speed than necessary to achieve their results. There is also a mental aspect (jamming the cue forward usually stems from a fear of underhitting the shot, i.e. not getting enough movement, not getting enough backspin, etc.). But I'm not here to focus on why this happens. I'm not even here to focus on how to fix it (very hard to discuss without a pool table although I'll try). My main point is to tell people what DOESN'T fix it.

What doesn't fix it is slowing down steps 1 and 2. I'm tired of seeing people rush their forward swing. When they try to fix it it's like they can't stop their cue from jamming forward too fast. Instead what they do is take a super slow back swing, a long pause at the cue ball, then they jam forward from there! Arg!!! No!

I don't care if you take a non-slow-motion back swing. I don't care if you don't pause. All I care about is that the forward swing starts slowly and softly and picks up fluid acceleration through the cue ball. If you start your forward swing calmly then nothing else really matters, and if you don't then trying to make up for it by chalking your cue stick slower or tying your shoe laces slower in the morning isn't going to make up for that.

Now, many of you have never developed a feel for great timing. I'm not pretending I can help through a computer. That's why I don't do zoom lessons, I'd rather you were standing next to me at a table. But if I can give a hint it is this: The right feeling should be as if you're going to shoot SOFTLY to a cue ball that is about 3" PAST where it actually sits. In other words you start your cue soft, but then you accelerate all the way through the cue ball. Your cue will be moving slowly but you will get a solid hit out of it because you are peaking out through the cue ball and all of your cue speed goes into the cue ball. Try that out. Set up stop shots, start your swing like you're going to shoot a drag draw shot (soft enough to lose your slide) but then accelerate to the imaginary cue ball 3" past where the real cue ball is.

If you do it right you will discover that you can move your cue surprisingly slowly. This is because a jam stroke has one burst of power and then decelerates through the cue ball. You have to get your cue moving twice as fast to achieve results with a jam (picture a baseball batter trying to muscle and shove his bat at the ball. We call that a bunt!). Whereas when you let your cue swing it picks up speed all the way through the cue ball and you get all of your cue speed into the cue ball.

OK, as I said, I can't explain the feel of good timing. Maybe someone else can. And I'm not here to debate whether you want to pause or not. I'm just here to tell you that if I had a nickel for every time someone used a slow back swing, paused, and then rushed their forward swing I'd be a wealthy man. And when I hear people debating about the pause I just KNOW they are jerking their cue forward after that pause because they are focused on the wrong part of the swing in my opinion. Hope that helps someone. Happy shooting!
 
Buckshot, we simply disagree on the facts here. You say an elbow drop is required on power shots. I say it isn't. At this point all we can do is circle and escalate. I'm not interested in doing this.

To the others reading, I base my claim that an elbow drop is optional on two things: 1) I spent hours looking at the top 30 Fargo Rated players in the world on Youtube, found shots where they used a lot of force, and counted how many dropped their elbow. A good 35% of them had no elbow drop. The proof is in the pudding. 2) I don't utilize an elbow drop. I can generate all the power I need.

I looked into this because I was curious about whether or not I was doing something wrong. After watching JL Chang hit some amazing stroke shots without an elbow drop I concluded I didn't need to mess with my game. Maybe I'll never play top flight snooker, but I would settle for playing Chang's speed.
Maybe I used the wrong word there. I should have said you can't keep it from happening on power shots. Necessary was the wrong word.
 
I believe a pause at the cue ball is required to transition from conscious thinking during the practice strokes to the sub-conscious/muscle memory during the final stroke. I also believe that the final forward stroke with smooth/constant acceleration is also required as you are advocating here, but that occurs through building muscle memory of good stroke fundamentals.
Earlier in this thread I wrote a detailed post advocating for the pause at the cue ball for the same reasons you describe.

Unlike the shoulder drop and pause on the back swing, if you look at the top 30 pool players in the world essentially all of them have a pause at the cue ball. I haven't done this so I can't say positively but I believe people who don't pause at the cue ball are in the vast minority of good players.

Even Efren (who doesn't pause on the back swing) has a pause at the cue ball. He pauses, then he takes a warm up stroke and shoots. It's a premature pause but that is when he shifts from dialing in to shooting.
 
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