My New J.Flowers J20-21 cue First Impressions

[mrpiper]

As a note, those J Flowers carbon fiber shafts deflect a lot more than other LD carbon fiber shafts, especially the Revo or Ignite, they are more akin to a standard wood lower LD shaft like a Players HXT or early Predator 314s than a newer LD shaft.

"A lot more"? Where is your scientific evidence for this?

This is just my opinion, but I feel it is correct based on the physical properties of carbon fiber and wood...

Honestly, to measure RELATIVE deflection between carbon fiber shafts under different brands is almost impossible. Even Dr. Dave here, who has done a really good video on the subject, still has the human pool stroke to contend with. Unless someone invents a machine that can be calibrated to deliver an exactly perfect repeatable stroke, delivered to the exact same spot on the cue ball, with the exact same speed and perfectly replicated ball placement, this statement really can not be proven. There just isn't enough difference between them to measure without instrumentation.

Do CF shafts deflect less than standard maple shafts? Of course. You don't have to be extremely precise to see this. No machine needed. But to measure deflection across a series of say 3 or 4 CF shafts, all of which have very similar physical characteristics in manufacture, would be almost impossible. About the only thing that would likely make a really big difference between them would be different tips. If all test cues had the same tip, I don't believe there is a way to measure the difference between them and quantify that without significant mechanical consistency in testing. Even if you did that, I don't think any would perform differently enough in a human hand to change a player's game verses the other CF cues.

 

[7stud]

Just a lesson in giving trust without a formal contract.

Isn't it illegal in China NOT to steal foreign technology, brand names, etc.

 

[Nyquil]

While I am not personally a fan of buying things from China I have to respect the quality product they are putting out. Seems to be quality. Cue listings has done a few reviews on them on you tube and raves about the price to performance ratio. Their entry level cues cost around the same than my mezz shaft I recently purchased. I think it's nice for people that don't have a big budget to drop on a name brand maker and still have a very good player. OP your cue looks really nice. The inlay work is well done. Enjoy it brother.

 

[Nyquil]

Isn't it illegal in China NOT to steal foreign technology, brand names, etc.

They do it all the time. That's the risk you run with sharing your IP in China for manufacturing purposes.

 

[garczar]

"A lot more"? Where is your scientific evidence for this?

This is just my opinion, but I feel it is correct based on the physical properties of carbon fiber and wood...

Honestly, to measure RELATIVE deflection between carbon fiber shafts under different brands is almost impossible. Even Dr. Dave here, who has done a really good video on the subject, still has the human pool stroke to contend with. Unless someone invents a machine that can be calibrated to deliver an exactly perfect repeatable stroke, delivered to the exact same spot on the cue ball, with the exact same speed and perfectly replicated ball placement, this statement really can not be proven. There just isn't enough difference between them to measure without instrumentation.

Do CF shafts deflect less than standard maple shafts? Of course. You don't have to be extremely precise to see this. No machine needed. But to measure deflection across a series of say 3 or 4 CF shafts, all of which have very similar physical characteristics in manufacture, would be almost impossible. About the only thing that would likely make a really big difference between them would be different tips. If all test cues had the same tip, I don't believe there is a way to measure the difference between them and quantify that without significant mechanical consistency in testing. Even if you did that, I don't think any would perform differently enough in a human hand to change a player's game verses the other CF cues.

CF shafts do not HAVE to be LD. You can get stand. deflect. carom cf shafts. Its not just the material but how the front-end mass is distributed.

 

[One Pocket John]

Bought the JFlowers 3 piece Jump - Break cue a while back. 54" long. That thing hits the balls like a 1/2" piece of rebar. Very little cue speed is needed to break the balls. The cue jumps very well with little effort. At $420 I had to take the chance and glad I did.
John

 

[JB Cases]

Isn't it illegal in China NOT to steal foreign technology, brand names, etc.

They didn't steal it. They are simply violating the agreement we had for who gets to use the trademark in what countries.

 

[hang-the-9]

"A lot more"? Where is your scientific evidence for this?

This is just my opinion, but I feel it is correct based on the physical properties of carbon fiber and wood...

Honestly, to measure RELATIVE deflection between carbon fiber shafts under different brands is almost impossible. Even Dr. Dave here, who has done a really good video on the subject, still has the human pool stroke to contend with. Unless someone invents a machine that can be calibrated to deliver an exactly perfect repeatable stroke, delivered to the exact same spot on the cue ball, with the exact same speed and perfectly replicated ball placement, this statement really can not be proven. There just isn't enough difference between them to measure without instrumentation.

Do CF shafts deflect less than standard maple shafts? Of course. You don't have to be extremely precise to see this. No machine needed. But to measure deflection across a series of say 3 or 4 CF shafts, all of which have very similar physical characteristics in manufacture, would be almost impossible. About the only thing that would likely make a really big difference between them would be different tips. If all test cues had the same tip, I don't believe there is a way to measure the difference between them and quantify that without significant mechanical consistency in testing. Even if you did that, I don't think any would perform differently enough in a human hand to change a player's game verses the other CF cues.

Is playing and seeing how it shoots "scientific evidence"? If you aim at a shot and you make it with one shaft, but another shaft you need to compensate more, that other shaft has more deflection. Now to measure the thing to a small % yes you need a machine.

 

[JB Cases]

Isn't it illegal in China NOT to steal foreign technology, brand names, etc.

Sometimes it feels that way. This situation however is different. I created the brand and gave them the right to use it for cases in China. So it's complicated is the best answer. John is a dumbass is the most accurate answer.

 

[JB Cases]

They do it all the time. That's the risk you run with sharing your IP in China for manufacturing purposes.

You run the exact same risk here. Basically big companies trample small companies constantly in every country.

That said, if by "China" you mean beyond the reach of the American judicial system you would be correct that it's much harder for a small company to pursue a legal fight in a foreign country.

I was really ignorant when I created the J.Flowers brand in that I didn't know I could own the brand outright in China fairly easily and didn't need to share it for protection purposes. Had I known that I would have structured it differently.

Ignorance is sometimes expensive.

 

[tomker]

...
Do CF shafts deflect less than standard maple shafts? Of course.

That's not obvious. Carbon fiber is more rigid than wood. But shafts that are more rigid usually impart more deflection on the cue ball. For low deflection, you want a shaft that's "floppier." So, all other things being equal, carbon fiber shafts will be higher-deflection than maple.

You don't have to be extremely precise to see this. No machine needed. But to measure deflection across a series of say 3 or 4 CF shafts, all of which have very similar physical characteristics in manufacture, would be almost impossible. ...

You could say the same thing about wood shafts, which also have similar physical characteristics. But there's still a difference between wood shafts that people care about and can measure.

There are important differences between carbon fiber shafts, like the thickness of the carbon fiber, and what the CF tube is filled with. CF tubes are filled with foam, sometimes multiple different kinds of foam. Manufacturers choose the type/density of foam to fine tune the shaft's feel, weight balance, and the sound it makes on contact. So the amount of deflection a CF shaft has will also depend on the type of foam that it has towards the tip, which I'm sure varies between manufacturers.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

"A lot more"? Where is your scientific evidence for this?

This is just my opinion, but I feel it is correct based on the physical properties of carbon fiber and wood...

Honestly, to measure RELATIVE deflection between carbon fiber shafts under different brands is almost impossible. Even Dr. Dave here, who has done a really good video on the subject, still has the human pool stroke to contend with. Unless someone invents a machine that can be calibrated to deliver an exactly perfect repeatable stroke, delivered to the exact same spot on the cue ball, with the exact same speed and perfectly replicated ball placement, this statement really can not be proven. There just isn't enough difference between them to measure without instrumentation.

Do CF shafts deflect less than standard maple shafts? Of course. You don't have to be extremely precise to see this. No machine needed. But to measure deflection across a series of say 3 or 4 CF shafts, all of which have very similar physical characteristics in manufacture, would be almost impossible. About the only thing that would likely make a really big difference between them would be different tips. If all test cues had the same tip, I don't believe there is a way to measure the difference between them and quantify that without significant mechanical consistency in testing. Even if you did that, I don't think any would perform differently enough in a human hand to change a player's game verses the other CF cues.

Actually someone did invent a machine that had a perfect pendulum stroke every time to test deflection it was call 'Iron Willie'. I saw it used at a trade booth in Vegas many years ago when Predator came out with their first 314 shaft.