Who was the smuggler?
Questions regarding ivory and travel.
- Thread starter Gravey39
- Start date
The big story was 5-6 years ago when Ernie Gutierrez, Ginacue, pleaded guilty to help smuggling ivory
out of the USA in some cues he sold 41 cue parts containing ivory to two Taiwanese customers that he
knew would be transporting these cues overseas. He got busted only a few months after the ivory ban
took effect in 2016 and things have only gotten tighter since then. Ernie was sentenced to two years
probation that included four months of house arrest, $10,000 fine, confiscation of any inventory in his
shop, underway or completed containing ivory, and pretty substantial legal expenses to boot, as well
as losing cues and materials in his shop. Since Ernie was such a prominent cue maker, it made headlines.
out of the USA in some cues he sold 41 cue parts containing ivory to two Taiwanese customers that he
knew would be transporting these cues overseas. He got busted only a few months after the ivory ban
took effect in 2016 and things have only gotten tighter since then. Ernie was sentenced to two years
probation that included four months of house arrest, $10,000 fine, confiscation of any inventory in his
shop, underway or completed containing ivory, and pretty substantial legal expenses to boot, as well
as losing cues and materials in his shop. Since Ernie was such a prominent cue maker, it made headlines.
Hang Ching Liu & When Shou Wei Chen are the Taiwanese smugglers that got busted
at LAX airport with Ginacues in their luggage that they bought from Ernie for $75-85k.
at LAX airport with Ginacues in their luggage that they bought from Ernie for $75-85k.
I know the story. Thanks for the nice post. Concise and well written.
How complicit Ernie was in the smuggle part of the “crime” is what I question. He had to plead out to something. He did build the cues that’s certain.
What did he do to facilitate the actual smuggling part. That’s what I don’t know.
The Asian guys took the cues to the airport,
Ernie built them
That we know. But the chain of custody of the cues is questionable as it relates to smuggling them.
Maybe Ernie tried to conceal them and therefore facilitated the smuggle. That’s just a guess.
Whole thing pisses me off. I know the backstory of the actual ivory used in those cues.
Best
Fatboy
Here is where Ernie got in trouble……California implemented a ban on the sale of ivory effective July 1, 2016.
CA cue makers couldn’t sell any cues, or complete any already underway, that had ivory after June 30, 2016.
So Ernie was in a jam already with CA Dept. of Fish & Wildlife but when he sold cues to two customers he knew
intended to return home with the cues with ivory, that’s when Ernie became complicit in assisting the criminal act.
Ernie was well aware there was a international ban on ivory sales, as well as a brand new ban in California where
he resided. So he actually violated both state & federal laws. Ernie is lucky he wasn’t also prosecuted by the state.
Double jeopardy doesn’t attach where any crime is subject to federal and state criminality. The 5th Amendment does
not apply and it would have be come very expensive for Ernie if California also prosecuted him for selling ivory cues.
CA cue makers couldn’t sell any cues, or complete any already underway, that had ivory after June 30, 2016.
So Ernie was in a jam already with CA Dept. of Fish & Wildlife but when he sold cues to two customers he knew
intended to return home with the cues with ivory, that’s when Ernie became complicit in assisting the criminal act.
Ernie was well aware there was a international ban on ivory sales, as well as a brand new ban in California where
he resided. So he actually violated both state & federal laws. Ernie is lucky he wasn’t also prosecuted by the state.
Double jeopardy doesn’t attach where any crime is subject to federal and state criminality. The 5th Amendment does
not apply and it would have be come very expensive for Ernie if California also prosecuted him for selling ivory cues.
I previously had two cues underway by Bob Owen and Jerry Rauenzahn that were schedule for completion
the Fall of 2016. In December 2015, CA signed into law the ivory ban that took effect July 1, 2016. I spoke
with CA Dept. of Fish & Wildlife to inquire how my cues might be affected. About a month later I was notified
get the cues in your possession by June 30th or I was in violation of the law despite that my cues were ordered
early 2015 well before the law was even drafted, let alone passed. My argument fell on deaf ears even after calling
Sacramento headquarters and so I immediately notified Bob and Jerry. They were great and said they’d rearrange
their schedule & my cues would reach me before July 1st. Both cues arrived on Fri., Memorial Day Weekend 2016.
the Fall of 2016. In December 2015, CA signed into law the ivory ban that took effect July 1, 2016. I spoke
with CA Dept. of Fish & Wildlife to inquire how my cues might be affected. About a month later I was notified
get the cues in your possession by June 30th or I was in violation of the law despite that my cues were ordered
early 2015 well before the law was even drafted, let alone passed. My argument fell on deaf ears even after calling
Sacramento headquarters and so I immediately notified Bob and Jerry. They were great and said they’d rearrange
their schedule & my cues would reach me before July 1st. Both cues arrived on Fri., Memorial Day Weekend 2016.
About 15 years ago one of my customers had a cue covered in Ivory imported from the Phillipines. The cuemaker blacked out the butt with liquid shoe polish. No way to identify the Ivory. Rubbing alcohol took every bit of the shoe polish off.
Gravey39
Active member
Very informative, thank you for that. I was generally curious to the whole ordeal and what happens. My uncle has a sneaky Pete from the 80’s that has a ivory ferrule. I’ve never owned a cue with ivory in it. This information might become useful one day due to my uncles cue will most likely come to me.
There is so much misinformation regarding the ivory laws it's out of control. First, your states law supersedes the federal law with the exception of import and export violations. All the state laws are lock down laws, I have not seen any that were not. This means you can give it to your kids, a museum, or get buried with it. Here is a fact, if you live in California and drive to Arizona where there is no law to sell your cue, you are now guilty of smuggling. This is the definition of the law, however very unlikely that you would get caught. But if you did, you are in the shit. State laws are for people that live in the state. So if you bought ivory from someone in a non-lockdown state, YOU would be the guilty party. In all likely hood your state would not look to prosecute the shipper, just you for receiving it. When I worked on my Deminimus letter with the US fish and wildlife they basically said here are the rules, figure them out. I spent two weeks and came to this conclusion with some help from them. They are more likely to catch importing, than exporting. They must be able to identify visually or come to a logical conclusion that the item is ivory. Like insuring a cue for 5000 dollars, that it a red flag. They use blacklight, not the burn technique. To answer the OP's question, traveling in the states, is probably not going to be an issue even in and out of a lockdown state. In and out of the country could pose some possible issues. I would say from a minimum standpoint you would need a Deminimus letter, a receipt from the cuemaker with dates and a statement about the date of the ivory, and it would not be a guarantee. If you got an over zealous agent you could be in for a fight. A good lawyer told me if a law is vague, stay away from it. The wiggle room is not for you, it's for them.
Ernie made the cues, after the ban, so he got the "smuggling" attachment because it's a good sound bite. There is no question to the chain of custody, those two nitwits boarded a plane with a duffle bag of ivory in a lockdown state, and a Federal Trade Restriction. It is rumored there was a lot of chirping to get reduced charges. Just for the record it was Pool Chady and Zen Cues that were busted, in case their natural names do not look familiar. I recently saw a BIG Zen cue with ivory, made way after the ban, for sale here in the US, in a lockdown state, which takes some balls.