The Biggest Flaw of APA's Handicapping

[Woodshaft]

As most of us know, APA league is the biggest recreational league in the US, and consists of both 8 and 9-ball leagues.
APA uses a somewhat complex handicap system they call the Equalizer System.
It uses handicapped formulas that rate players by their actual game-play performance (mostly innings/game), and wins/losses don't really factor much.
And their formula is actually pretty solid, accept for one huge variable: TABLE DIFFICULTY.
APA's standard table is supposed to be Valley 7 footers, and these are what are used at the World Championships.
Now the problem is (and it happens in my town) that many pool rooms use the much tuffer 7-foot Diamond tables for league play.
And since the APA formula only bases skill levels (mainly) on innings per game, I have come to the conclusion that an APA SL5 that plays primarily in a league that uses 7-foot Diamond tables is actually more skilled, by about a level, than a SL5 that plays on the easier 7-foot Valley tables.
So guess what happens when these two SL5's meet up at the World's and play against each other? That's right, Diamond table SL5 player plays better than the Valley table SL5 player.
Trust me, I know. My good friend- an average-ish player who is rated on a league that primarily plays on Diamonds- won it all (easily) not to long ago at World's. $15k, and frankly it wasn't even close lol.
So attention APA League Administrators, you might really want to factor table difficulty into your formula, because Diamond 7's are becoming more and more widely used in APA leagues, and they play about a skill level more difficult than Valleys in my experienced opinion.

 

[pogmothoin]

You're getting a national rating based on local results. Your mileage will vary.

 

[David in FL]

As most of us know, APA league is the biggest recreational league in the US, and consists of both 8 and 9-ball leagues.
APA uses a somewhat complex handicap system they call the Equalizer System.
It uses handicapped formulas that rate players by their actual game-play performance (mostly innings/game), and wins/losses don't really factor much.
And their formula is actually pretty solid, accept for one huge variable: TABLE DIFFICULTY.
APA's standard table is supposed to be Valley 7 footers, and these are what are used at the World Championships.
Now the problem is (and it happens in my town) that many pool rooms use the much tuffer 7-foot Diamond tables for league play.
And since the APA formula only bases skill levels (mainly) on innings per game, I have come to the conclusion that an APA SL5 that plays primarily in a league that uses 7-foot Diamond tables is actually more skilled, by about a level, than a SL5 that plays on the easier 7-foot Valley tables.
So guess what happens when these two SL5's meet up at the World's and play against each other? That's right, Diamond table SL5 player plays better than the Valley table SL5 player.
Trust me, I know. My good friend- an average-ish player who is rated on a league that primarily plays on Diamonds- won it all (easily) not to long ago at World's. $15k, and frankly it wasn't even close lol.
So attention APA League Administrators, you might really want to factor table difficulty into your formula, because Diamond 7's are becoming more and more widely used in APA leagues, and they play about a skill level more difficult than Valleys in my experienced opinion.

Yeah, that’s the biggest flaw with APA handicapping…

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. There are so many, many, flaws with the APA handicapping system.

The point is somewhat valid though. But I think that it can be found in any handicapping system including FargoRate. I would argue that anytime you put two players together, one of whom routinely plays on difficult equipment, and one of them plays on very easy equipment, the player who is used to playing on difficult equipment is going to be at an advantage whether the two of them are playing on a valley bar box with buckets, or a tight diamond.

I think the bottom line is that APA skill levels just don’t travel very well because they’re primarily determined from a relatively small pool of local players. I’ve seen APA 6’s that can hold their own with well established 550+ Fargo players because they play in a strong league. I’ve also seen 7’s that can’t get out of a wet paper bag, but they’re among the best players in their relatively weak league…

 

[Tom1234]

Yeah, that’s the biggest flaw with APA handicapping…

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. There are so many, many, flaws with the APA handicapping system.

The point is somewhat valid though. But I think that it can be found in any handicapping system including FargoRate. I would argue that anytime you put two players together, one of whom routinely plays on difficult equipment, and one of them plays on very easy equipment, the player who is used to playing on difficult equipment is going to be at an advantage whether the two of them are playing on a valley bar box with buckets, or a tight diamond.

I think the bottom line is that APA skill levels just don’t travel very well because they’re primarily determined from a relatively small pool of local players. I’ve seen APA 6’s that can hold their own with well established 550+ Fargo players because they play in a strong league. I’ve also seen 7’s that can’t get out of a wet paper bag, but they’re among the best players in their relatively weak league…

Don’t forget this gem from APA headquarters in St. Louis - LOs have the biggest input on what an individual skill level will be. If the LO thinks you’re a 5 hcp, then you are a 5. It doesn’t matter that you lose over half your matches against other 5 skill level players. Skill level 7s, don’t get me started. I’ve seen 7s that could spot the other 7 four games and still win the match.

 

[skiergd011013]

A ny
P athetic
A ttempt

A ny
P ocket
A nytime

 

[Zerksies]

Biggest flaw in the APA is the rating system. I walk into the door never playing an "Offical" APA game. I joined a league and they gave me the lowest rating possible. I'm playing guys giving me weight that in cash games I'm spotting them. My first night. I break and runout several racks or i just 1-inning the game. So on my first night i get that rack less night and runout patch. And the next week i go up just one spot. This goes on till the end of the season whereas I've gotten the highest rating and i Still could go higher.

The biggest flaw is probably the highest rating. I'm better then the 7/9 in 8 or 9 ball, But i'm not a pro. I also know of a few other players like this too.

 

[Zerksies]

As most of us know, APA league is the biggest recreational league in the US, and consists of both 8 and 9-ball leagues.
APA uses a somewhat complex handicap system they call the Equalizer System.
It uses handicapped formulas that rate players by their actual game-play performance (mostly innings/game), and wins/losses don't really factor much.
And their formula is actually pretty solid, accept for one huge variable: TABLE DIFFICULTY.
APA's standard table is supposed to be Valley 7 footers, and these are what are used at the World Championships.
Now the problem is (and it happens in my town) that many pool rooms use the much tuffer 7-foot Diamond tables for league play.
And since the APA formula only bases skill levels (mainly) on innings per game, I have come to the conclusion that an APA SL5 that plays primarily in a league that uses 7-foot Diamond tables is actually more skilled, by about a level, than a SL5 that plays on the easier 7-foot Valley tables.
So guess what happens when these two SL5's meet up at the World's and play against each other? That's right, Diamond table SL5 player plays better than the Valley table SL5 player.
Trust me, I know. My good friend- an average-ish player who is rated on a league that primarily plays on Diamonds- won it all (easily) not to long ago at World's. $15k, and frankly it wasn't even close lol.
So attention APA League Administrators, you might really want to factor table difficulty into your formula, because Diamond 7's are becoming more and more widely used in APA leagues, and they play about a skill level more difficult than Valleys in my experienced opinion.

When you reach the upper levels of their handicapping system. Difficulty on a 7 foot table really doesn't matter that much. I'm still running racking on big or small pockets fast or slow cloth. I will make the adjustment even if the table is not perfectly level too.

A 5 is still a noob. You might be a little bit better then your friends. But you are still losing to any regular pool player.

 

[mikepage]

Yeah, that’s the biggest flaw with APA handicapping…

Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. There are so many, many, flaws with the APA handicapping system.

The point is somewhat valid though. But I think that it can be found in any handicapping system including FargoRate. I would argue that anytime you put two players together, one of whom routinely plays on difficult equipment, and one of them plays on very easy equipment, the player who is used to playing on difficult equipment is going to be at an advantage whether the two of them are playing on a valley bar box with buckets, or a tight diamond.

I think the bottom line is that APA skill levels just don’t travel very well because they’re primarily determined from a relatively small pool of local players. I’ve seen APA 6’s that can hold their own with well established 550+ Fargo players because they play in a strong league. I’ve also seen 7’s that can’t get out of a wet paper bag, but they’re among the best players in their relatively weak league…

It's not there in FargoRate so long as your opponent is playing on the same table as you.

I suspect this is a smaller issue for APA than is suggested by the OP. To the extent that the core ingredient for the APA approach is average innings per game computed by ignoring safeties and considering only your game wins, then yes, this would be somewhat higher on tougher equipment.

I don't know if APA still works this way (or even ever did), but my understanding is there was also something called "applied score." In looking just at matches you won, it replaces your reported innings-per-win with an expected innings-per-win if the reported one is higher. While we might think of this as being motivated by thwarting sandbagging, the effect here is when you win a match on a tight table with perhaps some extra innings, it's going to replace those innings with the "Valley Table" expectation. If so, then it would mitigate the equipment problem.

Again, this is the way it was described by somebody decades ago in a newsgroup. I have no knowledge outside of that.

I think the APA approach as it was described is pretty clever.

 

[David in FL]

Biggest flaw in the APA is the rating system. I walk into the door never playing an "Offical" APA game. I joined a league and they gave me the lowest rating possible. I'm playing guys giving me weight that in cash games I'm spotting them. My first night. I break and runout several racks or i just 1-inning the game. So on my first night i get that rack less night and runout patch. And the next week i go up just one spot. This goes on till the end of the season whereas I've gotten the highest rating and i Still could go higher.

The biggest flaw is probably the highest rating. I'm better then the 7/9 in 8 or 9 ball, But i'm not a pro. I also know of a few other players like this too.

The whole “innings“ metric is also horribly mismanaged.

Especially in 8 Ball where it’s very common to play safe and/or just bump balls around for an inning or two depending on the table. If a player isn’t “calling safe“ when doing so, their skill level can remain artificially low, when in fact they may be a very strong, strategic player.

 

[Zerksies]

Going by the APA system. You have Shane Van Boening playing as a APA 9. I would be playing him equally no way in hell is that game straight up

 

[Zerksies]

The whole “innings“ metric is also horribly mismanaged.

Especially in 8 Ball where it’s very common to play safe and/or just bump balls around for an inning or two depending on the table. If a player isn’t “calling safe“ when doing so, their skill level can remain artificially low, when in fact they may be a very strong, strategic player.

Complete BS, I play a 4 and I definitely could make the match last quite a few innings just to keep my rating down.

 

[David in FL]

It's not there in FargoRate so long as your opponent is playing on the same table as you.

I suspect this is a smaller issue for APA than is suggested by the OP. To the extent that the core ingredient for the APA approach is average innings per game computed by ignoring safeties and considering only your game wins, then yes, this would be somewhat higher on tougher equipment.

I don't know if APA still works this way (or even ever did), but my understanding is there was also something called "applied score." In looking just at matches you won, it replaces your reported innings-per-win with an expected innings-per-win if the reported one is higher. While we might think of this as being motivated by thwarting sandbagging, the effect here is when you win a match on a tight table with perhaps some extra innings, it's going to replace those innings with the "Valley Table" expectation. If so, then it would mitigate the equipment problem.

Again, this is the way it was described by somebody decades ago in a newsgroup. I have no knowledge outside of that.

I think the APA approach as it was described is pretty clever.

I was more referring to people who play exclusively on one table or another, but then travel to a national event and play on a totally different table. Two “500’s“ might not be as close to each other as we might expect. The guy who usually plays on the tight, difficult table might have a distinct advantage in a handicapped race over the guy used to buckets.

We’ve seen that pretty consistently in BCA and USA leagues. In the last two years my little pool room has had a national champion individual, a national champion team, a second-place team, and a fifth place women’s individual out in Vegas. All good players to be sure, but they absolutely destroyed people who are used to playing on much easier equipment and then had to play on the same diamonds that we play on every day.

Don’t misunderstand. I’m a huge proponent of FargoRate and think that it’s by far, the best system for handicapping pool that I’ve ever seen.

 

[Woodshaft]

I don't know if APA still works this way (or even ever did), but my understanding is there was also something called "applied score."

Here's a good explanation of APA handicapping:

APA Equalizer Handicapping System - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

Answers to frequently-asked questions about the APA Equalizer handicapping system.

billiards.colostate.edu

 

[Texas Carom Club]

A ny
P athetic
A ttempt

A ny
P ocket
A nytime

table open after break
scratch shooting the 8 game not over if 8 doesnt pocket

take what you make on the break
scratch on break , incoming shooter shoots from the kitchen
lose if scratch on 8 even if 8 is still on the table

hmmmm one does seem a tad easier than the other.......

 

[Woodshaft]

You're getting a national rating based on local results. Your mileage will vary.

I think it's an easy fix. Diamonds play about one-inning (SL) tuffer than Valleys. Stick that factor in the formula.

 

[Woodshaft]

I'm a SL7 in 8-ball and a SL9 in 9-ball. For those who don't know those ratings, I'm excellent lol. Our league plays most games on 7-foot Diamonds. Our friends, one town over, play their league on Valleys.
When we get together for practice, the Valley SLs play worse than our similarly rated players, on EITHER brand table.
My point here is that the Valley-rated folks are at a disadvantage to the Dimond-rated folks, by about one skill level imo.
And when Dimond players go to the big tourneys, they play better because the tournament uses Valley tables which are, frankly, toys, compared to Diamonds.

 

[decent dennis]

The biggest flaw in there system, at least it used to be was leaving scoresheets at a bar or poolhall over night. Seems like it would be pretty easy to have extra sheets and change innings,safetys .

 

[Woodshaft]

Don’t forget this gem from APA headquarters in St. Louis - LOs have the biggest input on what an individual skill level will be. If the LO thinks you’re a 5 hcp, then you are a 5. It doesn’t matter that you lose over half your matches against other 5 skill level players. Skill level 7s, don’t get me started. I’ve seen 7s that could spot the other 7 four games and still win the match.

Yah, I definitely agree that league operators have too much power in handicapping lol.
When I referred to "biggest flaw" I meant regarding the actual formula variables.

 

[Woodshaft]

When you reach the upper levels of their handicapping system. Difficulty on a 7 foot table really doesn't matter that much. I'm still running racking on big or small pockets fast or slow cloth. I will make the adjustment even if the table is not perfectly level too.

A 5 is still a noob. You might be a little bit better then your friends. But you are still losing to any regular pool player.

I'm talking about common players, not us gods lol

 

[rjb1168]

As most of us know, APA league is the biggest recreational league in the US, and consists of both 8 and 9-ball leagues.
APA uses a somewhat complex handicap system they call the Equalizer System.
It uses handicapped formulas that rate players by their actual game-play performance (mostly innings/game), and wins/losses don't really factor much.
And their formula is actually pretty solid, accept for one huge variable: TABLE DIFFICULTY.
APA's standard table is supposed to be Valley 7 footers, and these are what are used at the World Championships.
Now the problem is (and it happens in my town) that many pool rooms use the much tuffer 7-foot Diamond tables for league play.
And since the APA formula only bases skill levels (mainly) on innings per game, I have come to the conclusion that an APA SL5 that plays primarily in a league that uses 7-foot Diamond tables is actually more skilled, by about a level, than a SL5 that plays on the easier 7-foot Valley tables.
So guess what happens when these two SL5's meet up at the World's and play against each other? That's right, Diamond table SL5 player plays better than the Valley table SL5 player.
Trust me, I know. My good friend- an average-ish player who is rated on a league that primarily plays on Diamonds- won it all (easily) not to long ago at World's. $15k, and frankly it wasn't even close lol.
So attention APA League Administrators, you might really want to factor table difficulty into your formula, because Diamond 7's are becoming more and more widely used in APA leagues, and they play about a skill level more difficult than Valleys in my experienced opinion.

Agree 100%, I have some family members the thier APA league plays on 9 foot Gold crowns. They should also allow a push out
in 9 Ball, it would benefit all involved.