Practice - Drills...NOPE!

The ½ roll is harder to do that the dead stop. The margin of error on hitting the CB is much smaller for the ½ roll than a dead stop.

Those little details separate the men from the boys.
FATBOY - Again, absolutely correct.

The Center Ball 'roll over' Shot, must be hit with a perfectly dead-center hit, and at absolutely the perfect speed for that exact distance - leaving us a very narrow margin for error - as you are pointing out.

This forces us to develop a perfectly straight stroke, dead-center cuing, and develop a consistent feel for proper shot speed (at various distances, gauged by a consistent 1/2 ball roll-over result), in order to cause the CB to replace the OB's former position - as opposed to leaving the CB stopped dead behind the OB's former position - and, as far as I am aware, can only be done when hit absolutely perfectly.

Whereas, our beloved and classic Center Ball Stop-Shot, can be brought about by a different combinations of shot speeds and associated proper cuing positions for a given distance, where these various differences - when answered with the correct combinations - will all sum to leave the CB stopped dead in it's track behind the OB position.

Therefore, we might say that The Center Ball 'roll over' Shot is a skill-development shot used for stroke-building and honing. - GJ
 
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Best non-drill drill for lower level players, stop shots at varying distances. It gives you the speed and control knowledge of playing just about any shot and teaches hitting the cueball where they mean to. After that comes position and pattern play. I have known players that played for 20+ years that can't hit a good stop shot and by extension could not play draw shots either. Proper mechanics and stoke is pretty much all that stops all those life-time APA shooters that are still 3s and 4s after years from getting better, if they are not stubborn and refuse to learn that is.
 
FATBOY - Again, absolutely correct.

The Center Ball 'roll over' Shot, must be hit with a perfectly dead-center hit, and at absolutely the perfect speed for that exact distance - leaving us a very narrow margin for error - as you are pointing out.

This forces us to develop a perfectly straight stroke, dead-center cuing, and develop a consistent feel for proper shot speed (at various distances, gauged by a consistent 1/2 ball roll-over result), in order to cause the CB to replace the OB's former position - as opposed to leaving the CB stopped dead behind the OB's former position - and, as far as I am aware, can only be done when hit absolutely perfectly.

Whereas, our beloved and classic Center Ball Stop-Shot, can be brought about by a different combinations of shot speeds and associated proper cuing positions for a given distance, where these various differences - when answered with the correct combinations - will all sum to leave the CB stopped dead in it's track behind the OB position.

Therefore, we might say that The Center Ball 'roll over' Shot is a skill-development shot used for stroke-building and honing. - GJ
100000% right

Roy Futternick taught me this after I’d been playing seriously for just over a year. He played champion speed.

I’ve shot 50 straight in shots almost every practice session since then 1986. During the years I’ve played.

Like I said if I get dead straight on the $ ball, I couldn’t be happier. There’s only one way to hit a straight in shot. And I’m good at it😃

Best
Fatboy
 
FATBOY - Again, absolutely correct.

The Center Ball 'roll over' Shot, must be hit with a perfectly dead-center hit, and at absolutely the perfect speed for that exact distance - leaving us a very narrow margin for error - as you are pointing out.
I am going to have to disagree. First, the replace the OB with the CB shot can be hit with any spin except follow, e.g. a drag shot. And, as far as I can tell, a Stop Shot, A Replace OB Shot, or a Backup One Ball Shot all have the same margin of error. In my experience, they all have to be hit with the exact spin and speed that make the CB do what you intend. Furthermore, I have a problem with hitting the vertical axis on the CB, and I can hit all those shots albeit the CB spins irritatingly in a counter clockwise direction when it comes to rest.🤒
 
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I was thought to shoot dead straight shots with center ball. Everything on center. So I did. It helped me a lot. I built everything off that. And when I’m dead straight on the $ ball-I’m happy.

Great post and advice.

Learn where the center of everything is first-then build on that
Fatboy,
I had the opposite when I started out. All I wanted, was to learn how to spin the ball. Playing center ball came later. I only really do it for very long slow straight in, that just needs a roll through.The thing I learnt, how to do best. Is to throw balls in with spin.
playing the kill shot .Is another one I enjoy playing.the longer the shot, the more true you need to hit through the ball.any flaws in your cueing. Will certainly show up.

What bar table man said is true, some times drills, can be all consuming. I find a good way my self. Is just set up a line of 4 or 5 balls, just below the second diamond, in a line, on all four corners. And just practise knocking them in, from all angles. I can do that for hours. I wouldn't call that a drill. As the white, is Never in the same place. The shorts can be from distance or close, its just whatever you feel like!
I don't think it matters how you learn, if it works for you, that's all that matters!!
 

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Fatboy,
I had the opposite when I started out. All I wanted, was to learn how to spin the ball. Playing center ball came later. I only really do it for very long slow straight in, that just needs a roll through.The thing I learnt, how to do best. Is to throw balls in with spin.
playing the kill shot .Is another one I enjoy playing.the longer the shot, the more true you need to hit through the ball.any flaws in your cueing. Will certainly show up.

What bar table man said is true, some times drills, can be all consuming. I find a good way my self. Is just set up a line of 4 or 5 balls, just below the second diamond, in a line, on all four corners. And just practise knocking them in, from all angles. I can do that for hours. I wouldn't call that a drill. As the white, is Never in the same place. The shorts can be from distance or close, its just whatever you feel like!
I don't think it matters how you learn, if it works for you, that's all that matters!!
Me2 when I first started. It was way more fun! 😃😃

Then Roy asked if I wanted to improve or spin the ball?

I went to school, and became a pretty good player for having zero talent.

I completely understand how you felt.
 
I am going to have to disagree. First, the replace the OB with the CB shot can be hit with any spin except follow, e.g. a drag shot. And, as far as I can tell, a Stop Shot, A Replace OB Shot, or a Backup One Ball Shot all have the same margin of error. In my experience, they all have to be hit with the exact spin and speed that make the CB do what you intend.

7STUD - Well, all kinds of people hold different points-of-views about all kinds of things in life.

We have a couple of things going on here, which we need to be clear on:

1. The Center Ball 'roll-over' Replace the Object Ball's exact former position shot - not slightly behind that point, nor slightly off to the side of that point, left or right, nor slightly beyond that point in space, nor left spinning on it's vertical axis - is designed as a training exercise with which to teach a student how to:

a) Hit the dead center of the CB consistently; and,
b) Create a stroke where no true stroke exists; and,
c) Learn to feel the maximum speed that shot need be hit at various distances to come perfectly to rest after a 1/2 rotation of the CB to take up the exact space where the OB once was; and,
d) Learn the unique sound and feel of a perfectly struck Center Ball hit.

2. Bringing the CB to any final position using a "fully-sliding CB" is not this shot - for in this shot, the CB needs to contact the OB just after the point where Slide begins to transition into Perfectly Rolling - and, with only enough 'roll' allowed to develop and residually manifest in the CB as 1/2 ball diameter rotation as the CB comes to it's resting position - which is the mechanic which brings the CB to perfectly occupy the space formerly occupied by the OB;

And,

3. Unlike the list of other shot/techniques which you have listed above - being those are shots/techniques used in play to achieve specific CB locations and influence on the OB as it travels to the target pocket in actual position-play - the shot we are discussing is not designed for that end purpose (See #1 above); it is a training exercise shot.

A different animal and end-goal and purpose completely, when compared to the shots/techniques you've cited.

While it matters not, I believe any and all action imparted to the CB which remains present as an influencing force at the time of a collision, will be partially transferred to and manifest on the OB; while the remaining residual force not lost to collision and transference, will also manifest itself as an equal and opposite reaction on the CB in determining it's final position in space until and when it finally comes to rest.

Therefore, if we presume the above statement to be true, and we also assume that your statement is equally true - yet obviously, both statements cannot be true at the same time - I would then have to ask myself:

"How could a CB in motion come to rest after a collision with an OB to perfectly replace and occupy the exact physical space previously occupied by that OB, without the effects of any residual horizontal/vertical axial imbalances in pressure altering the final resting position of the CB - to a position anywhere OTHER than that which the OB perfectly occupied prior to collision?".

Not wishing to discuss Classical Mechanics of Physics, nor argue opinions, let me instead simply ask you this:

Question: Have you attempted to perform the shot exactly as Bert Kinkister demonstrates this shot in the link provided above and achieved the same successful result as he does; and, more importantly, can you then replicate those same results - with precise finish OB/CB replacement positions - while imparting axial influences on the CB upon execution - as your position of disagreement states?

Your answers to the above tests should prove most illuminating.

... Furthermore, I have a problem with hitting the vertical axis on the CB, and I can hit all those shots albeit the CB spins irritatingly in a counter clockwise direction when it comes to rest.🤒

Which are precisely two of the things - See item # 1A above - which the Center Ball 'roll-over' Replace the Object Ball's position shot/exercise is specifically designed to help cure - as there is no residual horizontal axial spin manifest in the shot we are discussing.

Good luck, if you decide to give this training shot some time on your table; and here is the link to the shot we are discussing again: Bert Kinister, Center Ball 'roll-over' Replace OB training shot - GJ
 
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7STUD - Well, all kinds of people hold different points-of-views about all kinds of things in life.

We have a couple of things going on here, which we need to be clear on:

1. The Center Ball 'roll-over' Replace the Object Ball's exact former position shot - not slightly behind that point, nor slightly off to the side of that point, left or right, nor slightly beyond that point in space, nor left spinning on it's vertical axis - is designed as a training exercise with which to teach a student how to:

a) Hit the dead center of the CB consistently; and,
b) Create a stroke where no true stroke exists; and,
c) Learn to feel the maximum speed that shot need be hit at various distances to come perfectly to rest after a 1/2 rotation of the CB to take up the exact space where the OB once was; and,
d) Learn the unique sound and feel of a perfectly struck Center Ball hit.

2. Bringing the CB to any final position using a "fully-sliding CB" is not this shot - for in this shot, the CB needs to contact the OB just after the point where Slide begins to transition into Perfectly Rolling - and, with only enough 'roll' allowed to develop and residually manifest in the CB as 1/2 ball diameter rotation as the CB comes to it's resting position - which is the mechanic which brings the CB to perfectly occupy the space formerly occupied by the OB;

And,

3. Unlike the list of other shot/techniques which you have listed above - being those are shots/techniques used in play to achieve specific CB locations and influence on the OB as it travels to the target pocket in actual position-play - the shot we are discussing is not designed for that end purpose (See #1 above); it is a training exercise shot.

A different animal and end-goal and purpose completely, when compared to the shots/techniques you've cited.

While it matters not, I believe any and all action imparted to the CB which remains present as an influencing force at the time of a collision, will be partially transferred to and manifest on the OB; while the remaining residual force not lost to collision and transference, will also manifest itself as an equal and opposite reaction on the CB in determining it's final position in space until and when it finally comes to rest.

Therefore, if we presume the above statement to be true, and we also assume that your statement is equally true - yet obviously, both statements cannot be true at the same time - I would then have to ask myself:

"How could a CB in motion come to rest after a collision with an OB to perfectly replace and occupy the exact physical space previously occupied by that OB, without the effects of any residual horizontal/vertical axial imbalances in pressure altering the final resting position of the CB - to a position anywhere OTHER than that which the OB perfectly occupied prior to collision?".

Not wishing to discuss Classical Mechanics of Physics, nor argue opinions, let me instead simply ask you this:

Question: Have you attempted to perform the shot exactly as Bert Kinkister demonstrates this shot in the link provided above and achieved the same successful result as he does; and, more importantly, can you then replicate those same results - and precise finish OB/CB replacement positions - while imparting axial influences on the CB upon execution, as your position of disagreement states?

Your answers to the above tests should prove most illuminating.



Which are precisely two of the things - See item # 1A above - which the Center Ball 'roll-over' Replace the Object Ball's position shot/exercise is specifically designed to help cure - as there is no residual horizontal axial spin manifest in the shot we are discussing.

Good luck, if you decide to give this training shot some time on your table; and here is the link to the shot again: Bert Kinister, Center Ball 'roll-over' Replace OB training shot - GJ
The roll over ½ is the result of friction.

I don’t have the words to explain it. I was in physics in school, I explained the shot to my physics professor he had a doctorate in physics & math.

I told him the balls were equal weight zero spin.

He explained how it was a little rememamt friction that was the result of the collision which cause a slight roll of the CB.

It’s possible to hit the ball pretty hard and still only get ½ rotation or just a hair more.

I wish I could explain it better
 
The roll over ½ is the result of friction.

I don’t have the words to explain it. I was in physics in school, I explained the shot to my physics professor he had a doctorate in physics & math. I told him the balls were equal weight zero spin. He explained how it was a little rememamt friction that was the result of the collision which cause a slight roll of the CB.
FATBOY - Exactly correct, again.

That moment that 'Slide' begins to transition into 'Roll' is the moment we are trying to time this shot to, based on speed and distance. When done correctly, the only forward momentum/friction remaining on the CB just prior to and after the negating effects of the collision should be mathematically equal to somewhere near the mass of the CB minus the force of the impact - and ideally, resulting in that residual "1/2 diameter Roll-Over" - that is the "little remnant of friction" your teacher was describing.

It’s possible to hit the ball pretty hard and still only get ½ rotation or just a hair more.

Yes Sir, correct again, and that is because this shot/result is not a based on a 'gentle finesse' type of pressure hit; but rather, on a perfectly timed and hit on an axially-balanced center ball hit at the correct stroke speed for a given distance.

I wish I could explain it better

No need, the Mighty Jack Koehler explains it all to us better than anyone is his classic and incredible book: 'The Science of Pocket Billiards'.

Science_of_Pocket_Billiards_Jack_Kohler_Cover.jpeg



And besides... We are POOL PLAYERS, first and foremost - not Physicists. While knowing the Science really helps us to learn and master complex skills based on the interactions of the physics-at-play faster through deeper understanding of the principles behind what we are doing, what is ultimately important is that we learn to do it; and can do it repeatably, consistently, and reliably to the best of our own individual abilities. - GJ
 
FATBOY - Exactly correct, again.

That moment that 'Slide' begins to transition into 'Roll' is the moment we are trying to time this shot to, based on speed and distance. When done correctly, the only forward momentum/friction remaining on the CB just prior to and after the negating effects of the collision should be mathematically equal to somewhere near the mass of the CB minus the force of the impact - and ideally, resulting in that residual "1/2 diameter Roll-Over" - that is the "little remnant of friction" your teacher was describing.



Yes Sir, correct again, and that is because this shot/result is not a based on a 'gentle finesse' type of pressure hit; but rather, on a perfectly timed and hit on an axially-balanced center ball hit at the correct stroke speed for a given distance.



No need, the Mighty Jack Koehler explains it all to us better than anyone is his classic and incredible book: 'The Science of Pocket Billiards'.

View attachment 663600


And besides... We are POOL PLAYERS, first and foremost - not Physicists. While knowing the Science really helps us to learn and master complex skills based on the interactions of the physics-at-play faster through deeper understanding of the principles behind what we are doing, what is ultimately important is that we learn to do it; and can do it repeatably, consistently, and reliably to the best of our own individual abilities. - GJ
Pretty cool knowing there’s someone out there left in this world that understands this principal 😍😃
 
Pretty cool knowing there’s someone out there left in this world that understands this principal 😍😃
FATBOY - There are lots of folks out there who understand this principle; but, it all really comes down to that moment you described back in your Post #23; where you talked about when Roy asked you if "you want to improve... or spin the ball?".

That's a powerful and defining moment and choice, in a player's life.

I suppose, some folks get along just fine 'just doing it' without knowing 'why it does what it does''; and I am sure there are many really good ones out there too. I personally don't know these folks by name; but, they must be out there in large numbers, somewhere.

On the other hand, I doubt there is any Touring Pro - past or present - who have not understood, or instinctively figured-out over time, the mechanical principles of the physics since the day they chose to 'improve' during their development.

On the other-other hand, I guess there must also be some pool-playing 'Rain Man' idiot savant out there somewhere too, who 'Just Knows' - "Definitely,..7 Ball, Side Pocket, Two Rails... 2/3 Ball hit... 7 Ball... 1 and a-half Diamonds up the foot rail.... Definitely two rails...very sparkly....", who only comes off the table to watch The People's Court with Judge Wapner on a little portable TV between racks. :ROFLMAO:

You made the same choice as the rest of us - to improve - and, learning the scientific principles behind the art as it manifests itself on the table is part of the whole thing when you are wired that way. - GJ
 
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FATBOY - There are lots of folks out there who understand this principle; but, it all really comes down to that moment you described back in your Post #23; where you talked about when Roy asked you if "you want to improve... or spin the ball?".

That's a powerful and defining moment and choice, in a player's life.

I suppose, some folks get along just fine 'just doing it' without knowing 'why it does what it does''; and I am sure there are many really good ones out there too. I personally don't know these folks by name; but, they must be out there in large numbers, somewhere.

On the other hand, I doubt there is any Touring Pro - past or present - who have not understood, or instinctively figured-out the mechanical principles of the physics since the day they chose to 'improve' during their development.

On the other-other hand, I guess there must also be some pool-playing 'Rain Man' idiot savant out there somewhere too, who just 'Knows' - "Definitely,..7 Ball, Side Pocket, Two Rails... 2/3 Ball hit... 7 Ball... Definitely two rails...very sparkly....", who only comes off the table to watch The People's Court with Judge Wapner on a little portable TV between racks. :ROFLMAO:

You made the same choice as the rest of us - to improve - and, learning the scientific principles behind the art as it manifests itself on the table is part of the whole thing when you are wired that way. - GJ
When Roy asked me that.

Yes it was the defining moment in my pool life.

That’s a great observation. I can remember where I was, what table I was on. 25-30 years later I thanked him for that. I can’t ever re-pay him for what he taught me in pool & life. I’ve helped some kids-early 20’s as a way to lay back the guys who helped me come up. I tell the kids I help “you owe me nothing, someday do for someone what I’m doing for you”. And they will. Carry on the “life”. I don’t waste my time or wisdom on half wits or people who don’t listen. They will remember me like I do Roy, can’t take that away from me ever. Passing the torch so to speak. I’m 55 been around the block plenty of times and will until it’s over.

Best
Fatboy 😃
 
Me2 when I first started. It was way more fun! 😃😃

Then Roy asked if I wanted to improve or spin the ball?

I went to school, and became a pretty good player for having zero talent.

I completely understand how you felt.
I think it comes to us all in the end, if your prepared to put the time in, you will find out for your self. I wish I had some one, when I was very young, to help me out, unfortunately things take a very long time.when I went to my first tournaments in my early 20s, I was known as just a pure Potter. Can knock anything in, but it ain't going to compete, fully unless you have the rest. Experience is something you have to go through. It's good to help others along there way too. The best bit about the game these days. Is talking to players with more experience. That's what it's all about. You never stop learning!!!
 
I think it comes to us all in the end, if your prepared to put the time in, you will find out for your self. I wish I had some one, when I was very young, to help me out, unfortunately things take a very long time.when I went to my first tournaments in my early 20s, I was known as just a pure Potter. Can knock anything in, but it ain't going to compete, fully unless you have the rest. Experience is something you have to go through. It's good to help others along there way too. The best bit about the game these days. Is talking to players with more experience. That's what it's all about. You never stop learning!!!
Just pretend I wrote that. Describes me perfectly. I was 19 before I got any “help” playing pool.
 
People need to learn how to hit the ball on center axis before they start to put spin on the ball
Nothing you can do about you've mostly spun the ball however long that took. Center ball is square one though. The method follows the example of the sphere - radiates outward from that one central point.
 
Just my opinion, BUT 90%+ of the pool population need to work on how to physically shoot the ball in the hole with repetitious form. They do not need to do drills to get better. Until having a Master Instructor "scold" me into shooting with repeatable form was I even allowed to shoot a single drill. Watch snooker players...they get it.

Lower level league players ask me what drills they should shoot to get better. Inside my head...you don't know how to shoot a ball straight in, why are you concerned with drills?!

My brain venting.
The majority of pro snooker players do some sort of drill. Whenever the broadcast goes into the practice room almost every player is doing some drill. And when I attended the U21 championship almost a decade ago, all of the juniors I saw were doing some manner of routine when practicing or warming up. Drills are like any other learning tool, they are only effectively when applied properly.
 
Throw 15 on table, Use 1, for first ball, Shoot out all 15 in rotation, If you complete this without a miss, you are going in the wright direction So do this over and over until you don't miss... Guy
If you can do this, you probably don’t need what 90% of players need.
 
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