Gabriels replacement parts

fastone371 said:
The Rafale is a 3 cushion table, isn't it? I dont think its unusual for 3 cushion tables to have thicker slate than pocket tables.
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Yes, the Rafale 2.0 is a 3 ball billiard table. Does having a heating system under the 60MM slate make a difference in how the table plays? If by heating the slate up a few degrees makes a difference in how a table plays, maybe the thickness of the slate makes a difference also. Maybe the 3 rail folks know, I sure don't.

With the accuracy of CNC machining, plus the added strength steel has to offer over wood products, why wouldn't a steel framed or hybrid framed billiard table not be an advancement in billiard table technology? Timberwood claims there products are stronger then steel, which might be a possibility. There isn't much to a billiard table as can be seen in this Diamond video.

 
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garczar said:
They aren't more stable. Don't know where people get this shit. If it doesn't move it doesn't move. And yes NF uses a ProStar which is another Chinese-made GC copy. Ft.Worth billiards had a Rasson in their showroom. Played ok but nothing to write home about. People act like steel frames are some kind of magic that makes a table better. Wrong.
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I’d like to ask you if you agree or disagree with the following statement: mass functionally translates to resistance to motion.

The world is well aware of the other variables at play, as far as bracing/leg stability/etc. that allow some amount of wobble.

To the notion of that I reiterate what you either missed or didn’t respond to: when the table is engineered such that contact area between members is spread to a greater diameter, as with the Gabriels, there is more overall stability. Make that contact a steel plate backed by solid wood, and it becomes even more structurally sound.

Now to the pint of “is x table better than Rasson/etc, I have to say that some Chinese tables have some pretty advanced frame features while emulating the specs of tournament tables nearly perfectly. Some come with slightly lower rails which can be fixed with fender washers to make it to the right height.

The last part is unnoticed by many so-called mechanics, as a 6 oz ball doesn’t sit as far down as a rail that compresses the cloth.
NYC said:
Yes, the Rafale 2.0 is a 3 ball billiard table. Does having a heating system under the 60MM slate make a difference in how the table plays? If by heating the slate up a few degrees makes a difference in how a table plays, maybe the thickness of the slate makes a difference also. Maybe the 3 rail folks know, I sure don't.

With the accuracy of CNC machining, plus the added strength steel has to offer over wood products, why wouldn't a steel framed or hybrid framed billiard table not be an advancement in billiard table technology? Timberwood claims there products are stronger then steel, which might be a possibility. There isn't much to a billiard table as can be seen in this Diamond video.

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Some variables with carom/3c that most pool players don’t consider when discussing slate:

3c balls are heavier

Masse shots of force are more likely

Heated slates, when cooling down for the night, undergo contraction. You can leave the heater on 24/7 or use a thicker slate, which prolongs the loss of heat, making for more consistent cool-down.

Thicker slate cuts may tend to come from more consistent formations, especially in the arena of higher quality manufacturers.

Thicker pieces respond less to machining process, making more consistent surface.
 
eyesjr said:
I’d like to ask you if you agree or disagree with the following statement: mass functionally translates to resistance to motion.

The world is well aware of the other variables at play, as far as bracing/leg stability/etc. that allow some amount of wobble.

To the notion of that I reiterate what you either missed or didn’t respond to: when the table is engineered such that contact area between members is spread to a greater diameter, as with the Gabriels, there is more overall stability. Make that contact a steel plate backed by solid wood, and it becomes even more structurally sound.

Now to the pint of “is x table better than Rasson/etc, I have to say that some Chinese tables have some pretty advanced frame features while emulating the specs of tournament tables nearly perfectly. Some come with slightly lower rails which can be fixed with fender washers to make it to the right height.

The last part is unnoticed by many so-called mechanics, as a 6 oz ball doesn’t sit as far down as a rail that compresses the cloth.

Some variables with carom/3c that most pool players don’t consider when discussing slate:

3c balls are heavier

Masse shots of force are more likely

Heated slates, when cooling down for the night, undergo contraction. You can leave the heater on 24/7 or use a thicker slate, which prolongs the loss of heat, making for more consistent cool-down.

Thicker slate cuts may tend to come from more consistent formations, especially in the arena of higher quality manufacturers.

Thicker pieces respond less to machining process, making more consistent surface.
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I wouldn't want a table that I had to space the rails up using fender washers. You loose a lot of stability when there is not complete surface to surface contact. I would certainly believe that a complete steel framed table would be much more stable than a wood framed table of the same weight. Plus weight wont change dimension when temperature of humidity changes, at least not in the range that a pool table operates in. I would guess that the material price and the cost of labor would go up quite a bit using steel vs wood also for a table.
 
As far as weight , there is about 60lbs difference between a Rasson and a Pro-Am. Can't find the weight of a Gabriels anywhere.
 
@eyesjr, we get it. You've got a Gabriels and think it is a superior table based solely on mass, but to what end? I've personally never witnessed a solid 9' commercial table like a God Crown or Pro Am wiggle the balls when bumped in the 25 years I've been playing. Bar boxes and furniture style tabes, yes. If you've got a table in the vicinity of 1,200 pounds, It's not moving through the course of normal play.
 
rexus31 said:
@eyesjr, we get it. You've got a Gabriels and think it is a superior table based solely on mass, but to what end? I've personally never witnessed a solid 9' commercial table like a God Crown or Pro Am wiggle the balls when bumped in the 25 years I've been playing. Bar boxes and furniture style tabes, yes. If you've got a table in the vicinity of 1,200 pounds, It's not moving through the course of normal play.
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@
 
eyesjr said:
@
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And I get it, too. You don’t like my opinion, so you exclude the design differences that I mentioned and fallacious let summarize it as “BC it’s heavier”. You also hastily generalize that “I have one so I like it” when in fact, I spent a long time waiting to find one. From the guys that break like Hillbilly to the heavyweights that nudge around, the GC nudges, the Diamond nudges, and you can watch it happen on freaking Accustats for crying out loud.

If you do t LIKE my opinion, just say that you don’t rather than spitting rhetoric while feigning to be an expert.

Not to mention that parsimony explains the difference in our observations. “I’ve paid attention and you haven’t” is the simplest explanation for you NOT seeing balls wiggle, MIRACULOUSLY on ANY commercial table, while it happens in numerous pro events.

Is it a real issue? Yes. Does it influence the game? Maybe, and subjectively at best. But regardless, if you disagree simply say that you disagree. I haven’t gotten out of the way with anyone here, so why would you twist my words, cherry-pick, hastily generalize, and then top it off by saying that 1200 pounds miraculously keeps everything from moving, even when it’s mounted on freaking stilts?
The legs are as important as the frame, which is as important as having decent slate, in the case of stability. Contend with that and impress me, deal with the facts and impress me, or alternately concede by admitting you responded with ad-hoc opinion woven to resemble something that made sense.

May we conclude and shake hands, or will you drag it out and get defensive? Your shot, buddy.
 
I don’t know exactly, but the frame definitely outweighs a single slate. I’m in touch with Diamond looking for a thing or two. Another Gabriels is one of the things, so I may ask if they know the overall weight or shipping weight.

And to be fair, additional weight could be a disadvantage for some applications (older buildings, wood floors, etc.

Of the various things that contribute to the stability of these tables, mass may very well be down on the list from the design itself. While it must reduce the amount of wiggling according to scientific principle, i can’t say how much that compares to other factors.
 
fastone371 said:
I wouldn't want a table that I had to space the rails up using fender washers. You loose a lot of stability when there is not complete surface to surface contact. I would certainly believe that a complete steel framed table would be much more stable than a wood framed table of the same weight. Plus weight wont change dimension when temperature of humidity changes, at least not in the range that a pool table operates in. I would guess that the material price and the cost of labor would go up quite a bit using steel vs wood also for a table.
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The surface contact, mediated by wool of all things, isn’t what it is cracked up to be. And I admit, that sounds like a bad statement at first. When you find glue that isn’t stuck under a bolt-down rail, and then see that it is stuck by the rail bolt, you ask yourself the question: Why?

Wood can move. Moisture and temperature are the #1 causes on an installed table, but the same table in Tennessee and the Great Plains would measure differently for flatness due to atmospheric pressure, which impacts evaporation as well as percolation of water through/back out of the wood.

#2- name a 3pc slate table where you can’t mess up the slate joint by Gorilla torquing the rails…that is theoretically impossible with perfect contact.

So while the fender washer sounds janky as all get out, mechanically it is just as sound as can be. 18 points of contact on a 26 foot linear surface is more than stable enough, and that is precisely what the mounting bolts measure (not 27, like some might think).

Given that wood and slate move at different rates through the temperature AND moisture ranges, you very seldom find older tables that are flat on the bottom-and some manufacturers engineer them not to be. Anyone who has a car that wears out intake gaskets has the same problem, as Aluminum vs iron, as well as composite vs iron, expand and contract at different rates.

The Chinese tables and low-rail tables all act great with the washers under there. No janky noise, no funky spots, etc. If it takes more than a fender washer, I use a 7/8 tornado tie-down anchor washer. If it takes more than that, flip the rails upside down if they’re k66. It shouldn’t ever take more than that.

Using and knowing thee techniques, you can make a ball die on a diamond the same way the old Gold Crown 3 did on the 4th rail after a 3-rail kick, or you can fix those horrible red label diamonds… you can adjust an old Gandy to have diamond-like action off the rail, rather than the “way too englishy” way that they acted by skimming the bottom of the rail.

I appreciate design, and I have enjoyed studying various designs. But the “solid contact” myth is merely a myth. Energy put into the rail between bolts sounds different than energy put into the rail at the bolts- rails vibrate between anchor points. Even if perfect contact was attainable, this would mean that friction slightly reduced the vibration- as it does in many installations.

I know I kind of picked a topic and ran with it, but I’m ADHD as crap and see the world through a microscope while failing to see the obvious sometimes. Most people don’t care about the little things, but this was for whomever to consider or alternately criticize, as I welcome other approaches and new knowledge.
 
eyesjr said:
The surface contact, mediated by wool of all things, isn’t what it is cracked up to be. And I admit, that sounds like a bad statement at first. When you find glue that isn’t stuck under a bolt-down rail, and then see that it is stuck by the rail bolt, you ask yourself the question: Why?

Wood can move. Moisture and temperature are the #1 causes on an installed table, but the same table in Tennessee and the Great Plains would measure differently for flatness due to atmospheric pressure, which impacts evaporation as well as percolation of water through/back out of the wood.

#2- name a 3pc slate table where you can’t mess up the slate joint by Gorilla torquing the rails…that is theoretically impossible with perfect contact.

So while the fender washer sounds janky as all get out, mechanically it is just as sound as can be. 18 points of contact on a 26 foot linear surface is more than stable enough, and that is precisely what the mounting bolts measure (not 27, like some might think).

Given that wood and slate move at different rates through the temperature AND moisture ranges, you very seldom find older tables that are flat on the bottom-and some manufacturers engineer them not to be. Anyone who has a car that wears out intake gaskets has the same problem, as Aluminum vs iron, as well as composite vs iron, expand and contract at different rates.

The Chinese tables and low-rail tables all act great with the washers under there. No janky noise, no funky spots, etc. If it takes more than a fender washer, I use a 7/8 tornado tie-down anchor washer. If it takes more than that, flip the rails upside down if they’re k66. It shouldn’t ever take more than that.

Using and knowing thee techniques, you can make a ball die on a diamond the same way the old Gold Crown 3 did on the 4th rail after a 3-rail kick, or you can fix those horrible red label diamonds… you can adjust an old Gandy to have diamond-like action off the rail, rather than the “way too englishy” way that they acted by skimming the bottom of the rail.

I appreciate design, and I have enjoyed studying various designs. But the “solid contact” myth is merely a myth. Energy put into the rail between bolts sounds different than energy put into the rail at the bolts- rails vibrate between anchor points. Even if perfect contact was attainable, this would mean that friction slightly reduced the vibration- as it does in many installations.

I know I kind of picked a topic and ran with it, but I’m ADHD as crap and see the world through a microscope while failing to see the obvious sometimes. Most people don’t care about the little things, but this was for whomever to consider or alternately criticize, as I welcome other approaches and new knowledge.
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The first thing we must must accept is that everything flexes and vibrates, everything. It may be miniscule but Im sure if you compared a shimmed rail to a non shimmed rail (all else being the same) there would be a difference in the way the rail plays. The different sounds you get hitting by a fastener and hitting between fasteners is enough to conclude a shimmed rail is not as stable. Is it enough to substantially affect play? That I don't know. I'm not ADHD but I still could not accept replacing the Monarch Superspeeds on my GCI with K66 cushions and not having my table measure twice as long as it is wide. I had to send my rails out for calibration to properly fit current K55's.
 
fastone371 said:
The first thing we must must accept is that everything flexes and vibrates, everything. It may be miniscule but Im sure if you compared a shimmed rail to a non shimmed rail (all else being the same) there would be a difference in the way the rail plays. The different sounds you get hitting by a fastener and hitting between fasteners is enough to conclude a shimmed rail is not as stable. Is it enough to substantially affect play? That I don't know. I'm not ADHD but I still could not accept replacing the Monarch Superspeeds on my GCI with K66 cushions and not having my table measure twice as long as it is wide. I had to send my rails out for calibration to properly fit current K55's.
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Anchor points, or unified members, will flex less. it’s a product of mass, stiffness of materials, etc. the point between them wil give, as you pointed out. Being clamped down to a piece of wool that has tension variances and a low-friction surface will not stop it. That’s the point I made earlier, which is among the many reasons that the whole “flat, continuous contact” concept is flawed. A persons view of it, well, can be whatever. But the observable, repeatable, independently verifiable truth concerning it is that the “wool clamping” only slightly dampens it.

The slate is merely a substrate for the wool. It isn’t mechanically unified with the rail, other than the anchor point (rail bolts).

Vibration damping now becomes a product of clamping force which affects the wool. Density per volume, surface area of contact, and etc. The mass of the slate steadies the wool, ultimately indirectly damping, but here is the punchline. The wool can still compress and expand during vibration, which causes the vibration damping to be (1) frequency dependent, (2) intensity dependent, and (3) in that regard, not superior to the methods mentioned earlier.

I don’t really care to defend it much more than that, but warped rails cause slate joint issues all of the time. You can either pin the slates/backing together to fix the problem, or you can use washers to raise the rails so that the contact points between bolts don’t force a rail down on a joint. The technique discussed isn’t abnormal, unusual, or bizarre. FWIW, raising the Red label diamonds makes them play noticeably better. Speed is more controlled, etc. if the rubber is still good, that’s what I’m doing unless someone insists to spend big on nice rubber flipped upside down and a pocket cut. I’ve been out of the game since 2011, and new ideas have shown up obviously. I’m not right, and they aren’t wrong.
 
TrxR said:
Wouldn't wood reduce it better than steel or aluminum?
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(For the most part) There is no absorption, physically speaking. There is only the impedance of motion due to mass damping, which transfers out of the system by way of several functions related to resonant frequency. Someone may say that this is incorrect, so I will embellish by saying that resonant frequency itself is a product of many variables such as stiffness, density, material consistency, etc. Wood can change throughout the humidity spectrum as well as the temperature spectrum, while metals are only marginally affected by temperature, beneath the threshold of human observation. In the temperature range of a generally climate controlled environment suitable for public occupation, neither material changes significantly in that regard.

Anything that moves disturbs the air, which is by definition a sound wave. Metals resonance in certain frequency ranges vastly differs in efficiency compared to wood. Metal bridges collapse from resonance. The point is, sound deadening versus sound efficiently transferring through the material are the two variables left.

Metal transfers more sound as wood is dead tissue whose absence of most of its water results in a series of little chambers that include air: which reduces the resonant frequency to the lower side of the spectrum. Metal happens much higher, as it is more uniform and vibrations transfer through more efficiently. The mass-damping effect is greater with metal than wood, and the change of vibration into heat energy is greater In wood, while lesser in metal. The result is that on a pool table, it isn’t too noticeable other than the frequency we would hear. Wood rails would thus, due to low resonance. Metal ones would ding, due to high resonance.

But again, this is frequency dependent and can differ with extreme intensities.

In the case of supporting members and substrate (Legs, bracing, frame, and slate backing), where direct impact is not typical, the additional mass of steel offers more damping per square inch of material used due to its significantly higher mass. Unify wood and steel, and the wood dampens the steel. The best of both worlds. But more to the general topic here, the additional mass involved reduces overall movement of the unified system as a result of energy put into the system. Kneeing a table during a break shot becomes a different equation. Your knee on a scale plus its velocity, divided by the mass of the table will determine the energy with which the unified system (table) responds.
 
Several years ago and shortly after Gabriels and Diamond ended their relationship, I made a call to Diamond to see if they still had any of the Gabrial lights laying for sale. I forget the guy's name but believe it was one of the owners. The conversation went long and wide and we started talking about slate and slate thickness. Diamond did some study wondering why the need for 60mm slate. What they found out was anything thinner than 50mm and rolling Carom balls, there was a vibration issue which contributed to shorter travel distances. I assume they've looked at pool table slate thickness and what the minimum would be. I assume it not only depends on where the slate was mined and density differences within a single mine.

My mechanic, who is well known in this country for Carom tables is adding rail bolts to Gold Crown tables to stiffen them up. After he's done he compares them to Diamond tables.

I don't play much pool, so not an "expert" but when helping recover Gold Crowns I & II the rails seemed fairly light weight. All 4 rails didn't seem much heavier than 1 10' Carom rail. Does that matter? Don't know.
 
3kushn said:
there was a vibration issue which contributed to shorter travel distances.
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Interesting. I could see that with the heavier carom balls. Basically the thinner slate is robbing the CB of some power, kind of deadening in a way. Like how jump shots on certain tables feel like you have to hit them more firm.
 
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