Metal Frame tables

[bradsh98]

The humidity/temp affects the cloth/rubber more than anything else so frame material really doesn't matter. The frame of a quality wood-framed table is just as stable due to its mass. Humidity is not going to make a GC frame move. You guys need to talk to RKC about SAM's, he's worked on them and can tell you from a mechanics pov their issues.

I recently set up a Kim Steele table from the early 90's. It had been in storage for about 8 years, which always raises concerns for deformation of the slates. However, despite me having never previously seen a SAM table, the frame assembled easily, and the slates leveled out better than any Gold Crown that I've ever worked on. The leveling system was a bit quirky, at first, but I became a fan of it.

My only complaint is the rail design.. They are thin gauge steel, and are very light and hollow. This required additions of wooden strips, in order to staple the rail cloth. Also, the featherstrips are very thin plastic, which breaks very easily. It also seems to be impossible to find readily available replacements.

That said, I am very impressed with the way that the table plays. I enjoyed it so much, that I stuck around for a couple of hours, playing one pocket.

 

[garczar]

I recently set up a Kim Steele table from the early 90's. It had been in storage for about 8 years, which always raises concerns for deformation of the slates. However, despite me having never previously seen a SAM table, the frame assembled easily, and the slates leveled out better than any Gold Crown that I've ever worked on. The leveling system was a bit quirky, at first, but I became a fan of it.

My only complaint is the rail design.. They are thin gauge steel, and are very light and hollow. This required additions of wooden strips, in order to staple the rail cloth. Also, the featherstrips are very thin plastic, which breaks very easily. It also seems to be impossible to find readily available replacements.

That said, I am very impressed with the way that the table plays. I enjoyed it so much, that I stuck around for a couple of hours, playing one pocket.

You echo what i've heard about the rails. I played on some in KC yrs ago and they played great. Owner said they were a pia to work on.

 

[fastone371]

The humidity/temp affects the cloth/rubber more than anything else so frame material really doesn't matter. The frame of a quality wood-framed table is just as stable due to its mass. Humidity is not going to make a GC frame move. You guys need to talk to RKC about SAM's, he's worked on them and can tell you from a mechanics pov their issues.

If the mass and quality of a wood framed table was so stable we would not have GCIV frames that need frame mods so that the ends don't sag. I can promise you that that would not be an issue on a steel frame table.

 

[fastone371]

I recently set up a Kim Steele table from the early 90's. It had been in storage for about 8 years, which always raises concerns for deformation of the slates. However, despite me having never previously seen a SAM table, the frame assembled easily, and the slates leveled out better than any Gold Crown that I've ever worked on. The leveling system was a bit quirky, at first, but I became a fan of it.

My only complaint is the rail design.. They are thin gauge steel, and are very light and hollow. This required additions of wooden strips, in order to staple the rail cloth. Also, the featherstrips are very thin plastic, which breaks very easily. It also seems to be impossible to find readily available replacements.

That said, I am very impressed with the way that the table plays. I enjoyed it so much, that I stuck around for a couple of hours, playing one pocket.

Even if I were to build a steel frame table I think that I would still want wood rails on it.

 

[rexus31]

If the mass and quality of a wood framed table was so stable we would not have GCIV frames that need frame mods so that the ends don't sag. I can promise you that that would not be an issue on a steel frame table.

The problem with the later GCIII and GCIV frames isn't the material itself, but rather how it was engineered to be used. There's no frame sag issues on the GCI, II and early III.

 

[garczar]

If the mass and quality of a wood framed table was so stable we would not have GCIV frames that need frame mods so that the ends don't sag. I can promise you that that would not be an issue on a steel frame table.

The reason that some early GC4's have the sag issue is structural and not material. The frames on almost all 3's and some 4's have the end sill stuck on the end of the frame and not between it. The frames with the ends between the side beams have zero sag issues. Its not because of the wood being used.

 

[garczar]

The problem with the later GCIII and GCIV frames isn't the material itself, but rather how it was engineered to be used. There's no frame sag issues on the GCI, II and early III.

Later 4 frames were built with the ends between the side beams. The early ones were 3 leftovers.

 

[NYC]

I recently set up a Kim Steele table from the early 90's.

Did you use Bondo for the slate seams when installing the table? Did you use a spanner wrench when adjusting the slates?

IIRC K Steel was bought in the early 2000s by the Spanish company producing the table now. Maybe the K steel table's rail design has improved over time, since the earlier 1990s tables.

 

[garczar]

Did you use Bondo for the slate seams when installing the table? Did you use a spanner wrench when adjusting the slates?

IIRC K Steel was bought in the early 2000s by the Spanish company producing the table now. Maybe the K steel table's rail design has improved over time, since the earlier 1990s tables.

Yep. Mr. Kim made them in Germany early on then production was taken over by SAM in Spain. Still made there as well as the new Pred. models.

 

[garczar]

Here's what a SAM table rail looks like. i'll pass.

https://www.reddit.com/r/billiards/comments/c199n9

Unless they've re-designed these you'll see why mech's don't like them. Re-covering can be a major pia. Funky featherstrip size. What moron thought this was a good idea??

 

[fastone371]

The reason that some early GC4's have the sag issue is structural and not material. The frames on almost all 3's and some 4's have the end sill stuck on the end of the frame and not between it. The frames with the ends between the side beams have zero sag issues. Its not because of the wood being used.

No matter which way you look at it steel will never move, you cant say that about wood.

 

[garczar]

No matter which way you look at it steel will never move, you cant say that about wood.

Trying to backtrack any? What you said about GC frame sagging issue is 100% wrong. Any movement is tiny. Nothing you'll ever notice playing pool. Weight/mass of the whole system takes care of any movement. I live in a place where temp/humid. can and does make big swings on a regular basis. Never noticed ANY fluctuations in how a GC table plays in any weather other than the rubber/cloth. You're trying to make a case for steel that doesn't mean anything. If you like em go buy one but quit trying to prove a superiority that doesn't exist in REAL conditions.

 

[Sheldon]

 

[rexus31]

I think the void on the mounting side of the cushion serves a purpose and should be left void. I've never payed on a table with rails like this so I'm curious how the cushions play.

 

[garczar]

I think the void on the mounting side of the cushion serves a purpose and should be left void. I've never payed on a table with rails like this so I'm curious how the cushions play.

View attachment 734863

Great question. Never thought about the cushion 'void' and its role in how the rubber compresses-then-rebounds.

 

[fastone371]

Trying to backtrack any? What you said about GC frame sagging issue is 100% wrong. Any movement is tiny. Nothing you'll ever notice playing pool. Weight/mass of the whole system takes care of any movement. I live in a place where temp/humid. can and does make big swings on a regular basis. Never noticed ANY fluctuations in how a GC table plays in any weather other than the rubber/cloth. You're trying to make a case for steel that doesn't mean anything. If you like em go buy one but quit trying to prove a superiority that doesn't exist in REAL conditions.

Ok, boss, whatever you say, its your story, tell it how you want. I didnt backtrack on anything, I said steel will never move, wood does, I believe steel would be superior to wood.

 

[Ssonerai]

Garczar with all due respect, you are throwing up specific examples to generalize from, and straw man arguments.
I don't think any of us that like the idea of steel (& maybe build other complex systems with both or either wood or steel) are envisioning things like your examples, let alone the flimsy extruded aluminum section, (which looks awful but may or may not be adequate).

Fundamentally, there are no doubt means to make either one very effective. However, going forward, i suspect that wood & the wood manufacturing process will become less and less cost effective to do well.

smt

 

[o.g. (old guy)]

Great question. Never thought about the cushion 'void' and its role in how the ru

Great question. Never thought about the cushion 'void' and its role in how the rubber compresses-then-rebounds.

If I remember correctly. RKC said the voids are for alignment purposes when installing.

 

[Sheldon]

I think the void on the mounting side of the cushion serves a purpose and should be left void. I've never payed on a table with rails like this so I'm curious how the cushions play.

Seems like that design would limit your options on cushion choices if you were to ever try to replace them. I doubt that void is exactly in the same place on all versions of that profile.

 

[fastone371]

I think the void on the mounting side of the cushion serves a purpose and should be left void. I've never payed on a table with rails like this so I'm curious how the cushions play.

Many tables (maybe all tables with wood subrails) just have a flat face on the subrail for the cushion to mount to, I would be hard pressed to think its for alignment purpose.