APA, FARGO and the death of 8 ball.....

[Justaneng]

And as I've said before, it's not like that everywhere. I have 15 years of experience with our league here, so I've seen a lot, for how it works, here. And it's not the disaster you proclaim. We have a few players with over 600 fargos in our league, and several in the 500's, so I expect those guys practice I know that many play in other leagues, as well as non APA tournaments. Our pool room has (12) 9' Diamonds and its busy all week.

Will there be "some" sandbagging, sure. Any league system will have that. It's human nature for some people to try and cheat, in anything.
Do you play for money? Do you disclose your real speed when matching up? Isn't that just sandbagging?

I've found that it's no where near as prevalent as many, including you, would suggest. Here, in my part of the world. You talk about players not practicing, if they are that bad, how do you think they are gonna be good enough to hide their speed? Only way to have that happen is to have someone good enough to be convincing. And then to have the attitude to do it. And to decide to take the extra effort to do it. And not get caught. I call BS.

In our area “hiding our speed” isn’t prevalent outside of one or two teams (more on that later), but innings and safeties are counted “a bit loose”. Even with that, we’ve had a double Jeopardy division collapse from 7 teams to 4 teams due to being top heavy and anther 8-ball division may be soon to follow.

(Another note: Many people will also say they were “trying to lose” for their handicap as a way of saving face when in reality they just lost outright, this is where a lot of sandbagging discussion comes from).

In theory, if we were the only division to play it a bit loose we would kick ass in Vegas - but we don’t, so I’m thinking we’re not.

A lot players in our area now play one or both of USAPL and APA, so for maybe 25% of our APA players we can cross-check their Fargo rating to their APA rating. Most players are pretty close to their slots, but the teams who do really well in APA will have multiple players who’s Fargo is 1-1.5 skill levels up from their APA slot. These are teams who have told their players “try not to move up”. It’s not worth saying anything to the LO because in the area we can’t afford for the APA to collapse any further.

 

[garczar]

I haven't played any league pool in almost 20yrs, the last being a hi-level BCA league. I do however see a lot of it played at my home spot. One thing that really stands out, to me anyway, is just how many have no intention of getting better and the fear/revulsion that their rating/level might go up. I know this a very broad stroke with the negative paint-brush but its a fact in my area.

 

[Justaneng]

In our area “hiding our speed” isn’t prevalent outside of one or two teams (more on that later), but innings and safeties are counted “a bit loose”. Even with that, we’ve had a double Jeopardy division collapse from 7 teams to 4 teams due to being top heavy and anther 8-ball division may be soon to follow.

(Another note: Many people will also say they were “trying to lose” for their handicap as a way of saving face when in reality they just lost outright, this is where a lot of sandbagging discussion comes from).

In theory, if we were the only division to play it a bit loose we would kick ass in Vegas - but we don’t, so I’m thinking we’re not.

A lot players in our area now play one or both of USAPL and APA, so for maybe 25% of our APA players we can cross-check their Fargo rating to their APA rating. Most players are pretty close to their slots, but the teams who do really well in APA will have multiple players who’s Fargo is 1-1.5 skill levels up from their APA slot. These are teams who have told their players “try not to move up”. It’s not worth saying anything to the LO because in the area we can’t afford for the APA to collapse any further.

An example with data:

An APA SL-3 who’s an established Fargo 391 (which converts to a high end SL-4). When I do more cross checks I can’t come up with another SL-3 that’s higher than a Fargo 340 (so again, hiding speed is rare, but it happens).

In APA so far he’s won 1 rack this session, and he just scored a 3-0 victory over a Fargo 485 before Christmas in USAPL.

 

[justadub]

Well initially I thought it was just my local league players that dealt with shenanigans. You start to see the same people witnessing the same of what I heard or seen first hand. So there has to be some truth to it.

You’ve probably played years in the league and are use to this behavior.

I mentioned in my other response about players enjoying the role of managing teams. There has to be some joy of doing it and that joy is to see who can cheat the best. They won’t ever snitch on one another because that is part of the game. It’s gamesmanship with them.

It’s great that you enjoy it but how its setup is very flawed.

You honestly think a level 2 or 3 player, who shows talent and ability, will be nurtured to become a 9? I think that player is the perfect pawn for cheating. They have ability but also raw enough to cheat with. They show the ability to win but inexperienced enough to lose. Perfect for this league’s flawed system.

I’m open for conversation about this league and added my opinion with the people that think this system is flawed. My comments and opinions are not directed at you. My comments and opinions is to confirm the opinions of those that think like me. I’m not bashing you.

It seems you are predisposed to believe everything negative that you hear and read about APA.

Skill level 2 and 3 players, hell, 4's and 5's, aren't going to be able to shoot well enough to make it look like they missed but not intentionally. I've seen one or two "4's" try it, and they were convincing enough for the average scorekeeper, but anyone paying attention could see it. They are now 5's, and that is where they should be. There is one SL6 that I believe to be doing it. That's about it, out of a division of over 100 players. There might be one or two more, but it's not a widespread issue. I play with these people twice a week, they all play pretty consistently, week to week. I'm also not the only one who pays attention to this stuff. I will grant you that most people keeping score don't mark defensive shots as much as they ought to, but they are consistent about both teams, they just don't score as well as they should. It's not in favor of their player over their opponent. That's a scoring issue, not a sandbagging issue.

How else would you believe they are sandbagging? Losing matches intentionally? I suppose that's possible. To what end? We have cash payouts for our playoffs, so you kinda want your team to make the playoffs. Let alone that's the way to qualify for Vegas. And again, I play with these people every week. They are quite consistent. There will be some that we all consider to be bubble players, folks that play well enough to maybe move up one level. Those folks rarely last more than a session at the lower level, before being moved up. Especially if enough of us pay attention to them and make sure they are scored accurately.

I have never seen any of our players disqualified at higher level tournaments because they were grossly under handicapped. And that happens. Every year, you will hear of teams getting disqualified in Vegas for having too many players moving up while in that tournament. That can also happen at States/Cities level, too. I've only rarely seen any of our players moved up at these tournaments, unless they were bubble players and the LO warns us that those players may very well move up during the tournament, cuz they are that close. And there are observers in place at all the higher level tournaments, watching players. The LO also has trusted players that are reps that can give them a heads up on people that might bear watching closer. Before you go onto a some conspiracy theory that all the LO's and all the National league officials are in on it, just don't. LO's can be and are penalized if they have teams that get disqualified. APA Operator can detail that for you better than I.

I have NEVER heard anyone offer to lose or ask another team to lose. NEVER. We all know each other pretty well. People aren't going to tolerate blatant cheating. Maybe we're just different here, I dunno. I simply cannot envision any of the stuff that you are trying to claim is rampant happening here. Maybe I'm too positive. I just do not believe that. As I said before, I'm not new to this. I've been engaged in running teams for most of the 15 years I've been in the league. I'm not just showing up and drinking.

 

[justadub]

I haven't played any league pool in almost 20yrs, the last being a hi-level BCA league. I do however see a lot of it played at my home spot. One thing that really stands out, to me anyway, is just how many have no intention of getting better and the fear/revulsion that their rating/level might go up. I know this a very broad stroke with the negative paint-brush but its a fact in my area.

I will grant you that there is a significant number of players here that aren't motivated to get better. That would involve more pratcice and learning, and many folks are just out for the social aspect of things. That doens't mean that they are losing intentionally.

Hell, I actively want to get better, but have no time to practice. I think that for many, their one or two nights at league will be the only time they pick up a cue.

 

[APA Operator]

A lot players in our area now play one or both of USAPL and APA, so for maybe 25% of our APA players we can cross-check their Fargo rating to their APA rating. Most players are pretty close to their slots, but the teams who do really well in APA will have multiple players who’s Fargo is 1-1.5 skill levels up from their APA slot. These are teams who have told their players “try not to move up”. It’s not worth saying anything to the LO because in the area we can’t afford for the APA to collapse any further.

Taking a harder stance against sandbagging pays off in the long run for an APA franchise. People quit because they think they have to sandbag to win and they don't want to. If players see the LO taking a harder stance (like kicking sandbaggers out when they have proof and raising skill levels when they're just sure but don't have proof), it becomes more worth it to them to report it. The league takes a hit initially when they kick some players out or raise some players out, but those are the players I don't want in my league anyway. Over time that attracts the "right" kind of players and strengthens the league. Any LO who doesn't take a strong stance like that sacrifices long-term success for short-term pseudo-success. In other words, if you can't grow the right way maybe you shouldn't be running leagues.

One thing to remember, even if it was possible to completely eradicate sandbagging (and it's not), there are over 700 teams at the 8-Ball World Pool Championships. Your team has a 0.1% to 0.2% chance of winning it all going in, and better than a 25% chance of going 2-and-out. I tell my teams exactly that, and tell them any sandbaggers they see don't really affect their odds of winning so they should just try to play their best and enjoy themselves, because that's what they will remember. Don't let the occasional sandbagger ruin that for them. In the meantime APA will continue to do what they can to catch the sandbaggers.

 

[hang-the-9]

An example with data:

An APA SL-3 who’s an established Fargo 391 (which converts to a high end SL-4). When I do more cross checks I can’t come up with another SL-3 that’s higher than a Fargo 340 (so again, hiding speed is rare, but it happens).

In APA so far he’s won 1 rack this session, and he just scored a 3-0 victory over a Fargo 485 before Christmas in USAPL.

Part of being able to check Fargo against APA ratings is that there is a large group of APA players that are only APA players. They don't even know what Fargo is, and if they do know it's likely they never played in a league or tournament that used Fargo. So not everyone could be checked that way. My area happens to have a bunch of APA players that also are in Fargo because my son has an in-house league that uses the Fargo system and a handful of them play in it. All of our players that are in the APA and are over 350 in Fargo are 5s in the APA for 9 ball, so that 3 should be a 4 or a 5 if they are not trying to lose on purpose.

Some of the issues are just due to the APA imposing a limit on a team skill level cap, which does make it so new players are encouraged, but also makes is that good players are discouraged. As a B+/A- player, if I wanted to play in the APA I would basically have to start my own team or be brought in as a "new" player that starts as a 3, then cheat my way to staying lower to keep the team max. They also need to either cap the APA at under 650 Fargo or introduce a 8 / 10 rating and maybe even a 9 / 11. Fargo ratings very clearly showed that APA and TAP leagues have an issue at the top for the systems they use, it's just not good enough since you can be a 550 Fargo and max out the rating and also have that 550 be playing even against a 690 Fargo or a 710 Fargo that is also maxed out. I mean they even have a well-known "Super 7s" naming for those players that people know are better than your average 7. So basically a 7 that is cheating to stay a 5 is just a Super-5 LOL

 

[hang-the-9]

No bars or pool halls add money?

They may have added money to the tournaments, but not often. Mostly for the events they want to bring in a lot of players for or bring in players from outside the area to create buzz for the pool hall. That's not the same as paying the TD or LO to hold the event there, that ends up going to the players, or should at least.

 

[hang-the-9]

I think you need to reevaluate this statement. In APA you have to game the scoresheet and get your opponent to do so as well, either through well-disguised defense that isn't marked or by plain old negotiation. I've seen both. Any APA LO caught falsifying scoresheets loses his franchise.

Fargo doesn't care about winning the match. Any match longer than one game can thus be gamed by the player, the LO, or the TD. I don't know many Fargo tournaments that are not races to more than one, do you? Practically every tournament match in Fargo can be gamed, without changing a single tournament result. The difference is you don't hear people discussing it because team play using Fargo isn't real popular and hasn't been around that long, so who would they discuss it with? The people they're trying to cheat?


Certainly. Maybe he doesn't cheat in either, but his Fargo record consists of races to one against mostly APA 3's. He doesn't take chances so he's winning at least four times the number of games as anyone rated lower than him, and even or slightly better/worse against all others. All the others are also winning at the same clip, so there's a small group at 600+ and he just is one of them. Nobody in the league plays in any other Fargo events. In APA he wins games at the same clip against those rated lower than him, but because some of them actually win the match once in a while, he's just a little over 50% there.

Or, consider this - maybe he has some medical condition that makes his performance decline the longer he plays, making him really good at races to one in a Fargo league where he plays one and sits four but not so good in his APA league where he has to play four games most of the time before he gets a break. Once again, no cheating at all.

I know you only asked for one, but here's two. And in both, I would trust the APA number and call the Fargo number an outlier. And since he was probably watched at least once in Vegas (and didn't even play in the finals), it makes the APA number even more believable in my eyes.

Of course, he could be cheating and he's so good at it he got past all the anti-sandbagging measures in APA. But not everything that looks like a fish or smells like a fish is a fish.

Hold on here, I call a shot, but hang it up or miss it by a little bit, or call a low chance shot like 2 rail bank, what in the view of anyone watching would make them do anything except mark a miss? That's not changing the score or lying on the scoresheet, that is just me calling a shot I know I am not trying to make. Or if I shoot the 8 ball in but try to aim for a dead scratch instead of using spin to avoid it. OH NO, I lose, boo hoo for meee, whaaa so sad, now go mark it as a miss and a loss of game so I am still a 4. No idea what your point is about Fargo races, you are talking about the scorekeepers or people entering the results cheating, I am talking about the players cheating by dumping games and shots. I don't sit over the shoulders or those people entering the scores, but I sure as heck can hear and see the players cheating which is where I base that 25% sandbagging estimate at.

There is no way that 630 played races to 1 against APA 3s to get to an 600+ Fargo, or is stuck in some odd bubble where his 630 rating is somehow inaccurate. The number of tournaments and leagues that play races to 1, AND report to Fargo is very likely 0 on the planet. And you know what, Fargo has the stats you can dig into to find out exactly who the player played against, those opponents' ratings, even the event they played in. No secrets in Fargo.

 

[smiling_Hans]

Hell, I actively want to get better, but have no time to practice. I think that for many, their one or two nights at league will be the only time they pick up a cue.

I can agree and just like how you choose to play league and I choose weekly tournaments because I don’t have time to practice. I’m not practicing for these tournaments because these tournaments are my pool fix. It’s the only way for me to play since the people I play with either passed on or have a family.

Yes I was generalizing earlier and my intentions wasn’t meant towards the players but the system as a whole and how it may affect a player’s progress. Who am I to say how someone can enjoy pool.

I hope you understand I meant no ill will towards anyone.

 

[APA Operator]

An example with data:

An APA SL-3 who’s an established Fargo 391 (which converts to a high end SL-4). When I do more cross checks I can’t come up with another SL-3 that’s higher than a Fargo 340 (so again, hiding speed is rare, but it happens).

In APA so far he’s won 1 rack this session, and he just scored a 3-0 victory over a Fargo 485 before Christmas in USAPL.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but a 391 should have about a 33% chance of winning any game against a 485. That's less than 4% of the time for 3-0, yet we've all seen it happen. That's because the expected 2-1 ratio is over the long term, against similar numbers, not the short term with a very limited sample. Or it's a third of the time if the 485 is trying to lose two of those games (which would also falsify part of that 391 rating 100% of the time, right?). Just a different perspective on it. My point is there are outliers in both systems, and assuming one gets cheated but the other does not just doesn't fly with me.

 

[APA Operator]

Hold on here, I call a shot, but hang it up or miss it by a little bit, or call a low chance shot like 2 rail bank, what in the view of anyone watching would make them do anything except mark a miss? That's not changing the score or lying on the scoresheet, that is just me calling a shot I know I am not trying to make. Or if I shoot the 8 ball in but try to aim for a dead scratch instead of using spin to avoid it. OH NO, I lose, boo hoo for meee, whaaa so sad, now go mark it as a miss and a loss of game so I am still a 4. No idea what your point is about Fargo races, you are talking about the scorekeepers or people entering the results cheating, I am talking about the players cheating by dumping games and shots. I don't sit over the shoulders or those people entering the scores, but I sure as heck can hear and see the players cheating which is where I base that 25% sandbagging estimate at.

There is no way that 630 played races to 1 against APA 3s to get to an 600+ Fargo, or is stuck in some odd bubble where his 630 rating is somehow inaccurate. The number of tournaments and leagues that play races to 1, AND report to Fargo is very likely 0 on the planet. And you know what, Fargo has the stats you can dig into to find out exactly who the player played against, those opponents' ratings, even the event they played in. No secrets in Fargo.

You missed a shot intentionally and it wasn't marked as a defense on either scoresheet. What part of that makes my statement untrue? You also have to do that repeatedly to have any real impact, and if you do it repeatedly scorekeepers are going to suspect your intentions, so you're not hiding them so well. Your scratch example is sandbagging by losing games on purpose, which is the way you do it in Fargo too. Except in Fargo your rating goes down a little bit and mine goes up, even if you win the match and accomplish your short-term goal, whereas in APA most of the time it only affects either of us if you actually lose the match (and in that case it doesn't even affect me unless I shot well in the rest of the match). Almost all the time, whether you win or lose the match, it costs your team a point or gains my team a point (sometimes both, if I'm a 2, 3, or 4), so there's some incentive there not to do it. Way more anti-sandbagging measures in APA, including weekly review of every active player in our league (with possible loss of franchise to those who don't - remind me, what are the consequences of not doing your part to curb sandbagging in Fargo?). Tell me again how it's so much easier to cheat in APA?

 

[hang-the-9]

You missed a shot intentionally and it wasn't marked as a defense on either scoresheet. What part of that makes my statement untrue? Y

How. Do. They. Know. I. Missed. Intentionally. ? They don't, so who is marking my miss as a defense when it looked like I am going for the shot? APA you don't even need to call a shot so I can try to shoot a 4 rail bank combo carom behind my back and it's a "shot" not a "safe" if I want to say it is. I missed the ball. So what? No need to call anything, so even if the shot is a .5% of going in, it's still a shot in some pocket, I just happened to miss it. Every shot is a shot unless the player decides to call a safe on purpose for scoring.

About easier to cheat in APA, I can win every game and dog 4 shots on purpose to keep my handicap down since they care about innings. Fargo only cares who won. I can win on a break and run, or I can win in 6 turns at the table, Fargo sees is the same. APA thinks because it took me 6 tries to run out I must be crappy so if I break and run, I'm a 7, if I take 6 turns, I'm a 3. I can do this many times against players worse than me to keep my skill level down and keep my wins at over 50%.

 

[justadub]

How. Do. They. Know. I. Missed. Intentionally. ? They don't, so who is marking my miss as a defense when it looked like I am going for the shot? APA you don't even need to call a shot so I can try to shoot a 4 rail bank combo carom behind my back and it's a "shot" not a "safe" if I want to say it is. I missed the ball. So what? No need to call anything, so even if the shot is a .5% of going in, it's still a shot in some pocket, I just happened to miss it. Every shot is a shot unless the player decides to call a safe on purpose for scoring.

About easier to cheat in APA, I can win every game and dog 4 shots on purpose to keep my handicap down since they care about innings. Fargo only cares who won. I can win on a break and run, or I can win in 6 turns at the table, Fargo sees is the same. APA thinks because it took me 6 tries to run out I must be crappy so if I break and run, I'm a 7, if I take 6 turns, I'm a 3. I can do this many times against players worse than me to keep my skill level down and keep my wins at over 50%.

I don't know the secret sauce, nor do you, nor does APA Operator. But we are pretty sure that the formula involves more than just wins/losses and innings. The skill levels of the people you play (and beat) are very likely involved. And as a higher level player, especially playing mid to lower level players, i expect the number of innings won't be factored as heavily. You keep winning, you're gonna be more likely to go up.

And as I've said before, you have to be pretty good to make it look like you missed and not have it look intentional. Anyone that watches you play regularly will soon enough be able to get a sense of whether or not you're missing intentionally or not. Anyone that is paying attention, that is. You don't have to call a defensive shot for the scorekeeper to mark it that way. I have a couple of players in our league that fall into that category, for me.

And those who will go to those lengths in a league designed for fun are fortunately the minority. They're out there. But they aren't as prevalent as people generalize. Its too much work for too little reward.

 

[hang-the-9]

I don't know the secret sauce, nor do you, nor does APA Operator. But we are pretty sure that the formula involves more than just wins/losses and innings. The skill levels of the people you play (and beat) are very likely involved. And as a higher level player, especially playing mid to lower level players, i expect the number of innings won't be factored as heavily. You keep winning, you're gonna be more likely to go up.

And as I've said before, you have to be pretty good to make it look like you missed and not have it look intentional. Anyone that watches you play regularly will soon enough be able to get a sense of whether or not you're missing intentionally or not. Anyone that is paying attention, that is. You don't have to call a defensive shot for the scorekeeper to mark it that way. I have a couple of players in our league that fall into that category, for me.

And those who will go to those lengths in a league designed for fun are fortunately the minority. They're out there. But they aren't as prevalent as people generalize. Its too much work for too little reward.

The formula is out there, or was, it's still available with a few searches. Yes it's not just innings or wins/losses, but since the player can manipulate both misses and games won, that is how you sandbag. Pretty good, you can be like a 5 and pull it off easily. And isn't that the point? Good players pretending to be worse, not bad players pretending to be bad players LOL I know MANY players that I play even with in standard tournaments that are 1 or 2 levels under me in APA tournaments since they have an official lower rank. Like I keep saying, I am not guessing or saying things because I heard once someone 2,000 miles away complain, these are things I see over and over in the course of 30 years of play in like 40 pool halls across the country.

This is the map of my travels, almost all of these red dots are going to be a pool hall or bar I played in. I'm not just talking out of my ass, many of those dots I make friends in that play in the APA or I see the APA matches and hear the talk and watch the players, it's all facts. Heck some of the people on AZB I met at those places, and I'm pretty sure they will vouch for my skill and ability to judge players vs their APA level. I'm not an APA operator, I don't play in the APA so don't have any bias that is good or that I have to defend the APA, I did not start out with some negative thoughts about the APA, it just evolved over a few years of observation. Simply neutral observation based on facts and reason.

 

[justadub]

The formula is out there, or was, it's still available with a few searches. Yes it's not just innings or wins/losses, but since the player can manipulate both misses and games won, that is how you sandbag. Pretty good, you can be like a 5 and pull it off easily. And isn't that the point? Good players pretending to be worse, not bad players pretending to be bad players LOL I know MANY players that I play even with in standard tournaments that are 1 or 2 levels under me in APA tournaments since they have an official lower rank. Like I keep saying, I am not guessing or saying things because I heard once someone 2,000 miles away complain, these are things I see over and over in the course of 30 years of play in like 40 pool halls across the country.

This is the map of my travels, almost all of these red dots are going to be a pool hall or bar I played in. I'm not just talking out of my ass, many of those dots I make friends in that play in the APA or I see the APA matches and hear the talk and watch the players, it's all facts. Heck some of the people on AZB I met at those places, and I'm pretty sure they will vouch for my skill and ability to judge players vs their APA level.

View attachment 735463

I saw the leaked formula myself. That was from years ago, and you have to think they changed it some after that got leaked. And yes, wins and innings are likely still major components. A good scorekeeper will fix the innings portion of it.

And yes, if someone is determined to cheat, they're gonna cheat. Hopefully there are more of us that are determined to try and slow them down. If they ever show themselves in Vegas, that'll get fixed. Permanently. And if the goal isn't to go to Vegas, why on earth would you bother going thru all the machinations? To get one over on people. Pretty sad. "Hey, look at me, I cheated a bunch of beginners, whoooooooo!"

 

[hang-the-9]

I saw the leaked formula myself. That was from years ago, and you have to think they changed it some after that got leaked. And yes, wins and innings are likely still major components. A good scorekeeper will fix the innings portion of it.

And yes, if someone is determined to cheat, they're gonna cheat. Hopefully there are more of us that are determined to try and slow them down. If they ever show themselves in Vegas, that'll get fixed. Permanently. And if the goal isn't to go to Vegas, why on earth would you bother going thru all the machinations? To get one over on people. Pretty sad. "Hey, look at me, I cheated a bunch of beginners, whoooooooo!"

That is one of the flaws with the league system, as well at integrity, the goal is to win at the end not what happens in the middle during normal league weeks. I solved this by simply dividing our in-house league prizes into two, the teams that are top in the normal season and to the teams that do well in the end of season playoffs. If you sandbag and lose in the normal season to do better easier in the playoffs, you don't make any money for the season prize, and you don't have a guarantee of winning in the play-offs either. Every teams is in the playoffs in our local in house leagues (using Fargo handicaps), so no team has to worry about missing out if they do badly. APA, TAP, etc... put all the prizes at the end of their playoff cycle, you win a fancy trip to Vegas or whatever, but only if you win the final tournament. The regular season play does not matter for anything outside of qualifying you for the finals. So the incentive is to do just good enough to make it to the finals, then cruise with easy handicaps to victory and pack your backs for Vega.

For my part, I see basically indifference to cheating past bitching about it, but I also see the L.O.s as some of the people who have teams that cheat the system as well, or LOs that are there during nights of league that see those same players shoot in tournaments where the skill does not match up, and nothing gets done when they notice how good the player is. I find the APA system similar to the see no evil monkeys. They just shrug and say "well the players don't say anything" or "it's bad scoring". It's similar to speeding, 95% of people go over the limit, some way over, but the enforcement is very random and sparce, you need to be driving like a total moron to get pulled over. You can't just cut into the core of a rotten tree if it's standing or it will just collapse and make a larger mess for you, so you leave it alone if it's still standing, it's only after it breaks on it's own and smashes your car is something done, usually it's "who do I sue" LOL.

 

[buckshotshoey]

That is one of the flaws with the league system, as well at integrity, the goal is to win at the end not what happens in the middle during normal league weeks. I solved this by simply dividing our in-house league prizes into two, the teams that are top in the normal season and to the teams that do well in the end of season playoffs. If you sandbag and lose in the normal season to do better easier in the playoffs, you don't make any money for the season prize, and you don't have a guarantee of winning in the play-offs either. Every teams is in the playoffs in our local in house leagues (using Fargo handicaps), so no team has to worry about missing out if they do badly. APA, TAP, etc... put all the prizes at the end of their playoff cycle, you win a fancy trip to Vegas or whatever, but only if you win the final tournament. The regular season play does not matter for anything outside of qualifying you for the finals. So the incentive is to do just good enough to make it to the finals, then cruise with easy handicaps to victory and pack your backs for Vega.

For my part, I see basically indifference to cheating past bitching about it, but I also see the L.O.s as some of the people who have teams that cheat the system as well, or LOs that are there during nights of league that see those same players shoot in tournaments where the skill does not match up, and nothing gets done when they notice how good the player is. I find the APA system similar to the see no evil monkeys. They just shrug and say "well the players don't say anything" or "it's bad scoring". It's similar to speeding, 95% of people go over the limit, some way over, but the enforcement is very random and sparce, you need to be driving like a total moron to get pulled over. You can't just cut into the core of a rotten tree if it's standing or it will just collapse and make a larger mess for you, so you leave it alone if it's still standing, it's only after it breaks on it's own and smashes your car is something done, usually it's "who do I sue" LOL.

I offered a while ago in this thread to pm the APA formula to anyone that wants it.

When you read and study it for a while, you will see that padding innings will do nothing to keep your rating from going up. And if you have a winning percentage, it's impossible to go down.

 

[nicksaint26]

I don’t play APA anymore because it’s no fun managing handicaps and I’m sorry but that’s what you need to do. I made it to Vegas at least 5 times and as a captain handicap manipulation was how it’s done. If you aren’t manipulating your teams handicaps you have NO chance to make it to Vegas! Why play in a league where you are not trying to get better because it hurts your teammates? I’ll stick with BCA nowadays.

 

[APA Operator]

How. Do. They. Know. I. Missed. Intentionally. ? They don't, so who is marking my miss as a defense when it looked like I am going for the shot? APA you don't even need to call a shot so I can try to shoot a 4 rail bank combo carom behind my back and it's a "shot" not a "safe" if I want to say it is. I missed the ball. So what? No need to call anything, so even if the shot is a .5% of going in, it's still a shot in some pocket, I just happened to miss it. Every shot is a shot unless the player decides to call a safe on purpose for scoring.

They. Don't.. That's. What. I. Previously. Said.. I. Do., Because. You. Just. Told. Me. I also said you have to do it repeatedly, and scorekeepers are going to get suspicious. Some of those scorekeepers are going to start marking it, to the point where you honestly dog a shot and they mark defense. And you have to do it all the time. If you think you only have to do it in APA matches, I think you need to introduce yourself to the internet world. It doesn't take much to make the LO aware, then you can "sandbag" to your heart's content but it won't get you anywhere.

About easier to cheat in APA, I can win every game and dog 4 shots on purpose to keep my handicap down since they care about innings.

Fargo doesn't care about four shots dogged unintentionally, either. But that says nothing about sandbagging in Fargo. I'm asserting that losing games on purpose is easier to get away with in Fargo and running up innings or losing games on purpose isn't as effective as you might think in APA. How about this? It's easier to THINK you're sandbagging in APA but easier to KNOW it in Fargo. I think it's also easier to get caught in APA, but that could be bias.

I can win on a break and run, or I can win in 6 turns at the table, Fargo sees is the same.

But is it the same, really? Depends on how many of the misses are intentional, doesn't it? If the misses are intentional and marked as such, APA sees it the same too. If unintentional that's not the same.