Stroke - which muscles to use, which joints should move

[derangedhermit]

The trend in golf putting instruction for a good many years has been to get as much of the small muscle movements out of the putting stroke as possible: wrists do not hinge at all in any direction through the stroke, the hands do not change position, and the elbows remain at a fixed angle. The putter is propelled using the torso. This results in a more precise, consistent, repeatable putting stroke.

Does (or should) this thinking apply to a stroke in cue sports? Should the wrist hinge during a stroke, or not? If the wrist should remain fixed, what are the implications for a proper grip? It looks to me like cue movement is mainly provided by elbow flexion and extension, with a degree of wrist movement that varies player-by-player, and with some players, shot-by-shot.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

The trend in golf putting instruction for a good many years has been to get as much of the small muscle movements out of the putting stroke as possible: wrists do not hinge at all in any direction through the stroke, the hands do not change position, and the elbows remain at a fixed angle. The putter is propelled using the torso. This results in a more precise, consistent, repeatable putting stroke.

Does (or should) this thinking apply to a stroke in cue sports? Should the wrist hinge during a stroke, or not? If the wrist should remain fixed, what are the implications for a proper grip? It looks to me like cue movement is mainly provided by elbow flexion and extension, with a degree of wrist movement that varies player-by-player, and with some players, shot-by-shot.

It does vary. Some players have a bit of range of motion in the wrist and other body parts during the shot. Ulnar and radial wrist deviation (for most hand positions/setups/stances) will not alter the line of the stroke, other wrist movements will. Look online: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Radial-ulnar-deviation-of-the-wrist_fig4_279493096

 

[WobblyStroke]

There are many different types of strokes out there and all of em can work to a world class level.

To illustrate, even within the confines of a snooker setup, Stephen Hendry shared that after working with a few different coaches he was experiencing some confusion at the table regarding which cue action to use (in a fascinating interview with Steve Davis on his YT channel if anyone cares to have a look at two of the greatest champions talking shop).

In pool, there are certainly many more options and more room for confusion than what Hendry went through. Some will favor a technique that includes all 3 arm joints. Most key in on just the elbow. Others focus on wrist/hand action and treat any other moving parts as the way to achieve a desired action in the final lever (wrist/hand).

THERE IS NO ONE RIGHT WAY.

Even to take ur putting example, Ben Crenshaw, widely considered one of the best putters ever, breaks all the rules u listed and if u look into what he said he did to get out of a rut, he basically flipped common advice on its head.

I can appreciate that a simplified approach is both easier to teach and understand and why such an approach would become the standard. But in no way, does widespread acceptance make it the best way. Certainly not the only right way as sometimes portrayed.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
Does (or should) this thinking apply to a stroke in cue sports?...

I think that for the vast majority of shots, you want to keep the action as simple as possible. The most significant variation in the usual range of shots will be in how much the upper arm moves -- not at all on soft shots and enough on hard shots to allow a little more follow through.

 

[FranCrimi]

When it comes to moving body parts, the question that has to be asked for any given situation is: Is is necessary in order to achieve the desired result? Some techniques have been passed down through generations without the newer generation questioning them. For example: Back in the 1960s and before, many players stood taller at the table. These players used their wrist more often to generate power due to their limited arm swings. Today, with players standing lower, it's not necessary to use your wrist to gain power.

The pinky off the cue is also a carry forward of the wrist-movement type of play. With the pinky off, it frees up the grip hand more easily for wrist movement. Of course there are always a few shots where it does help to add wrist movement, but not to the extent that it was used with players standing taller.

You can perform your own experiments on this very easily. Just pick a situation, mark the table and then shoot it using both more and less moving parts. But you need to stay consistent with your stance when you experiment.

 

[3kushn]

Today, with players standing lower, it's not necessary to use your wrist to gain power.

On the other hand, if you want the least amount of power possible, the wrist is prime.
I watch Balkline and Straight Rail on occasion and the light touch is nearly super human to me.

 

[FranCrimi]

On the other hand, if you want the least amount of power possible, the wrist is prime.
I watch Balkline and Straight Rail on occasion and the light touch is nearly super human to me.

That's completely different. You're referring to practically no arm movement and just a wrist movement on the really small touch shots. And by the way, carom players traditionally stand pretty tall. Sang Lee was a perfect example of that.

 

[3kushn]

That's completely different. You're referring to practically no arm movement and just a wrist movement on the really small touch shots. And by the way, carom players traditionally stand pretty tall. Sang Lee was a perfect example of that.

I was taught to stand tall and over the years I've gotten lower... again.
We don't see many tall standing players anymore in 3 Cushion Not like the Fat Man for instance.

I guess my question was, how in the heck can you move a CB so gently?
Maybe you answered that.
It's a wrist only movement.??

 

[FranCrimi]

I was taught to stand tall and over the years I've gotten lower... again.
We don't see many tall standing players anymore in 3 Cushion Not like the Fat Man for instance.

I guess my question was, how in the heck can you move a CB so gently?
Maybe you answered that.
It's a wrist only movement.??

Yes. Most likely it's just wrist movement on those gentle touch shots. Any kind of arm swing is probably too much on those delicate shots. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think for the most part, carom players do stand taller than pool players, even if they're not as upright as they used to be, their heads are still higher than pool players these days.

 

[3kushn]

Yes. Most likely it's just wrist movement on those gentle touch shots. Any kind of arm swing is probably too much on those delicate shots. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think for the most part, carom players do stand taller than pool players, even if they're not as upright as they used to be, their heads are still higher that pool players these days.

Yes I think generally Carom Players stand taller. I think the gap is closing.

My first lesson 35 years ago I was instructed to stand much taller. The argument was that you can see the angles much better.
For me, as I started clocking the CB more I started getting closer to the cue in order to have more precise English.
I'm no champion mind you.

 

[Bob Jewett]

As for carom, I just watched Caudron playing some balkline. Unfortunately, the focus is rarely on the hand, so it hard to tell what is happening on the tiny (one inch) shots. On the shots that drive a ball two diamonds, there is very clearly arm motion.

 

[3kushn]

Imagine what golf fans would be saying if the cameraman zoomed into the teed up ball just before seeing the swing.
Like they do, with zooming in on the Cue Tip Striking the CB. WOW, Lots to learn with that film.
Pretty ridiculous how cue sports are filmed.

 

[derangedhermit]

It does vary. Some players have a bit of range of motion in the wrist and other body parts during the shot. Ulnar and radial wrist deviation (for most hand positions/setups/stances) will not alter the line of the stroke, other wrist movements will. Look online: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Radial-ulnar-deviation-of-the-wrist_fig4_279493096

I agree. Given that you can rotate the hand and move it in circles, it seems like one way to have a simple, repeatable stroke is to limit wrist movement to as little as possible. I think in practice there must be some ulnar/radial deviation, especially on follow through.

 

[derangedhermit]

I think that for the vast majority of shots, you want to keep the action as simple as possible. The most significant variation in the usual range of shots will be in how much the upper arm moves -- not at all on soft shots and enough on hard shots to allow a little more follow through.

Simple seems most repeatable to me, so simple is what I want to work toward. I just spent some time trying shots and paying attention, and I agree that if you start bent over with the grip hand hanging down, the elbow need not move until firmer shots, where it naturally wants to follow the cue a bit on the follow through. If the elbow stays still until contact, I think whatever it does after that is fine.

It seems having enough angle at the elbow joint at setup allows this. Standing upright, or any arrangement where the arm is close to straight, you have to move your upper arm using shoulder muscles to move the cue.

 

[derangedhermit]

When it comes to moving body parts, the question that has to be asked for any given situation is: Is is necessary in order to achieve the desired result? Some techniques have been passed down through generations without the newer generation questioning them. For example: Back in the 1960s and before, many players stood taller at the table. These players used their wrist more often to generate power due to their limited arm swings. Today, with players standing lower, it's not necessary to use your wrist to gain power.

The pinky off the cue is also a carry forward of the wrist-movement type of play. With the pinky off, it frees up the grip hand more easily for wrist movement. Of course there are always a few shots where it does help to add wrist movement, but not to the extent that it was used with players standing taller.

You can perform your own experiments on this very easily. Just pick a situation, mark the table and then shoot it using both more and less moving parts. But you need to stay consistent with your stance when you experiment.

Playing around with the grip some, it seems that gripping the cue with forefinger and thumb only ("OK sign" grip) does allow the wrist to move more freely. It seems to also provide for less forced wrist movement, when during the backstroke the cue is pulling down on the pinky, and a strong full grip makes the wrist hinge. With an OK grip (or a loose/relaxed grip), the wrist can stay in a (more) neutral position.

Does that make sense?

 

[FranCrimi]

Playing around with the grip some, it seems that gripping the cue with forefinger and thumb only ("OK sign" grip) does allow the wrist to move more freely. It seems to also provide for less forced wrist movement, when during the backstroke the cue is pulling down on the pinky, and a strong full grip makes the wrist hinge. With an OK grip (or a loose/relaxed grip), the wrist can stay in a (more) neutral position.

Does that make sense?

Yes, well you have to decide if you want wrist movement or not. I prefer not to as a general rule --- of course there are always exceptions on certain types of shots. I don't like gripping with the front part of my hand. My preference is a full fist relaxed grip with the pressure off of the thumb and index finger and with the pinky on the cue. Pinky off --- wrist is more flexible. Pinky on --- wrist is more stable. As the cue moves through the stroke, the grip pressure points naturally move from the middle to the back part of the grip hand. The thumb and index finger form a V on the top of the cue in the follow through position. Oh and those two fingers are basically parallel with the cue in the follow through position. That part is important.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Playing around with the grip some, it seems that gripping the cue with forefinger and thumb only ("OK sign" grip) does allow the wrist to move more freely. It seems to also provide for less forced wrist movement, when during the backstroke the cue is pulling down on the pinky, and a strong full grip makes the wrist hinge. With an OK grip (or a loose/relaxed grip), the wrist can stay in a (more) neutral position.

Does that make sense?

Some stuff to play around with and experiment.

Grip pressures are actually opposite....here is an experiment for you....Take your first finger and thumb and press them together firmly....keeping that firm pressure attempt to move your wrist....You will notice that your wrist will be very stiff....In fact..you must relax your first finger and thumb pressure to move your wrist....

Now make a fist with just your last three fingers (keeping your first finger and thumb relaxed)....notice you even though you have firm pressure on the last three fingers (as long as your first finger and thumb are relaxed) you can still move your wrist more freely.

Golf grip is the exact same as above....the club is gripped in the last three fingers...The first finger and thumb are basically just along for the ride....Someone that grips the club wrong...I can yank the club right out of their hand....Gripped correctly in the last three fingers is a much more stable grip....(with more natural wrist action)

Here is another (observation).....make a line down the middle of the back of your forearm down the middle of the back of your hand.....That line will go directly to your middle knuckle on the back of your hand.....(it does not "jag" forward to the first finger knuckle) ......Too me that tells me I want that middle finger to kind of act as the "fulcrum" point of the stroke....(not the first finger)

For me....The first finger and thumb are on very lightly....My pinky acts as a rudder (and restrictor) so to speak....My personal stroke issue quite often is taking too much of a backswing....keeping the ball of my pinky finger directly under but touching the cue helps keep the cue stroke straight and also helps restrict the amount of backstroke I take...same thing for the ball of the first finger....keeping the ball of the first finger directly under but lightly touching the cue through the stroke helps keep the stroke straight.

This part may read a bit goofy.....In Golf....(putting) your putter's shaft acts as your wrist (flex).....So your actual wrist remains pretty much "hinged" through the putting stroke....(many different variations to that hinging)....In pool...since we kind of flip the stroke on its side....your forearm/wrist become the (putter) shaft....so there must be a bit of "flex" (kind of like a putter shaft).....Now if we exaggerate things and say our shaft was a rubber hose...it would be very hard to have any control or consistency.....If the shaft is too stiff like a brick we would loose all feel....what we want is that happy medium were their is a little flex in the shaft but not too much or too little.

Ideally you want that wrist "flex" to happen naturally without any thought....Forced wrist flex is very hard to repeat over and over....natural wrist flex (since it happens naturally) is much more repeatable.....

Now....what can we actually "control" in this situation.....We can control the way we grip the cue and where and how much grip pressure we can apply.....everything else wrist flex, stroke path, etc. is a "result" of the static part (set up) that we can control.

Ultimately...If the cue is accelerating along the correct path through the CB...success....It really does not matter how you get it there......It just has to get there,

Sometimes (to me) when I am in that groove that occasionally I fall into...That I am always striving to reproduce on a consistent level.......It almost feels like my backswing is like I am simply drawing back the rubber band on a sling shot and then I release the rubber band and my grip hand/cue just "wants" to go forward without any effort input or force from me.....Its about as close to the "Ya just know" zone I can get that Eddy talks about at 1:30 of this clip.

 

[FranCrimi]

Some stuff to play around with and experiment.

Grip pressures are actually opposite....here is an experiment for you....Take your first finger and thumb and press them together firmly....keeping that firm pressure attempt to move your wrist....You will notice that your wrist will be very stiff....In fact..you must relax your first finger and thumb pressure to move your wrist....

Now make a fist with just your last three fingers (keeping your first finger and thumb relaxed)....notice you even though you have firm pressure on the last three fingers (as long as your first finger and thumb are relaxed) you can still move your wrist more freely.

Golf grip is the exact same as above....the club is gripped in the last three fingers...The first finger and thumb are basically just along for the ride....Someone that grips the club wrong...I can yank the club right out of their hand....Gripped correctly in the last three fingers is a much more stable grip....(with more natural wrist action)

Here is another (observation).....make a line down the middle of the back of your forearm down the middle of the back of your hand.....That line will go directly to your middle knuckle on the back of your hand.....(it does not "jag" forward to the first finger knuckle) ......Too me that tells me I want that middle finger to kind of act as the "fulcrum" point of the stroke....(not the first finger)

For me....The first finger and thumb are on very lightly....My pinky acts as a rudder (and restrictor) so to speak....My personal stroke issue quite often is taking too much of a backswing....keeping the ball of my pinky finger directly under but touching the cue helps keep the cue stroke straight and also helps restrict the amount of backstroke I take...same thing for the ball of the first finger....keeping the ball of the first finger directly under but lightly touching the cue through the stroke helps keep the stroke straight.

This part may read a bit goofy.....In Golf....(putting) your putter's shaft acts as your wrist (flex).....So your actual wrist remains pretty much "hinged" through the putting stroke....(many different variations to that hinging)....In pool...since we kind of flip the stroke on its side....your forearm/wrist become the (putter) shaft....so there must be a bit of "flex" (kind of like a putter shaft).....Now if we exaggerate things and say our shaft was a rubber hose...it would be very hard to have any control or consistency.....If the shaft is too stiff like a brick we would loose all feel....what we want is that happy medium were their is a little flex in the shaft but not too much or too little.

Ideally you want that wrist "flex" to happen naturally without any thought....Forced wrist flex is very hard to repeat over and over....natural wrist flex (since it happens naturally) is much more repeatable.....

Now....what can we actually "control" in this situation.....We can control the way we grip the cue and where and how much grip pressure we can apply.....everything else wrist flex, stroke path, etc. is a "result" of the static part (set up) that we can control.

Ultimately...If the cue is accelerating along the correct path through the CB...success....It really does not matter how you get it there......It just has to get there,

Sometimes (to me) when I am in that groove that occasionally I fall into...That I am always striving to reproduce on a consistent level.......It almost feels like my backswing is like I am simply drawing back the rubber band on a sling shot and then I release the rubber band and my grip hand/cue just "wants" to go forward without any effort input or force from me.....Its about as close to the "Ya just know" zone I can get that Eddy talks about at 1:30 of this clip.

Really well written post. I'd be careful though about calling it a 'wrist flex.' It's different from a golf swing in that aspect. Maybe it's just a definition thing, but if you're flexing your wrist in a pool stroke, then it's intentional. With the grip you describe, it's more like a rolling back of pressure points as the arm swings through with light grip on the front two fingers. If you're swinging with your arm, the wrist really isn't flexing at all.

 

[garczar]

Watch O'Sullivan in high-gear(pretty much always). Poetry-in-motion, just SO simple, pure. Draw it back, slight pause, send it thru. Trying to overthink/over ANAL-ize the stroke leads to sketchy, mechanical looking actions. Here he asks about the 147 prize ON THE FIRST BLACK. WTF??

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I agree. Given that you can rotate the hand and move it in circles, it seems like one way to have a simple, repeatable stroke is to limit wrist movement to as little as possible. I think in practice there must be some ulnar/radial deviation, especially on follow through.

The motion of the cue/arm puts pressure on the wrist, depending, so rigidly fixing the wrist will limit variables but could ruin the stroke. Factors include grip strength and hand and arm positions.