Crical case

[tomker]

Let's be clear, I absolutely can quantify the value. It's very simple. Padding stops damage.
...

I get it.

You guys think I'm an idiot because I don't understand that more padding is better.

I think you guys are idiots because I've been agreeing with you that more padding is better since the outset.

Seems we're at an impasse, and I know which side I prefer to be on.

 

[tomker]

...
You made one statement that is actually indefensible unless you have first hand knowledge of the majority of cases made. Saying that the $80 case is the equivalent of cases in the $200-$250 range is the problem.
...

Again with this price range which I've already corrected in my original post.

I didn't want to get into a whole thing with you about your price range, so I politely agreed with you that your products start at $80 and one of your cases that looks similar to mine costs $250.

But if we're going to get into it... do they? When I was shopping for a new cue case a couple months ago, all of your cases that I could find were listed for at least $260 on e.g. Seyberts. Since your cases are clearly better than the one I bought, I picked $250 as the upper bound for comparison in my original post, because I didn't want anybody to think that the case I bought was comparable to e.g. one of your cases. I can't find any of your cases listed on any of the other major online retailers that I'm aware of. And if you go directly to your web site (how many customers do that?), all your cases are sold out, and almost all of them listed are over $300 anyway.

Not to mention that in your review of the Crical case, you disingenuously "forgot" that I originally specified $200 to $250 and bumped that up to $300 (no) and compared it to one of your cases that was over $250 ($280?) anyway even though you claimed that one of your similar-looking cases costs $250 on this thread.

I feel like we already sorted this out so I'm not sure why it's coming up again.

 

[garczar]

I get it.

You guys think I'm an idiot because I don't understand that more padding is better.

I think you guys are idiots because I've been agreeing with you that more padding is better since the outset.

Seems we're at an impasse, and I know which side I prefer to be on.

No, you're an idiot because you keep arguing with someone who has forgotten more about cases then you'll ever know. I gotta give you some props i guess for making such an effort to look toolish as fk. On the 'Ignore' pile goes another.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't think you are an idiot. Not at all. In fact I like that you ask challenging questions. If I can't justify what I offer and the price I am asking then I don't deserve to be selling in my opinion.

But I absolutely disagree with your assertion that the protection level we offer is not quantifiable. Maybe it isn't to your satisfaction because of your assumptions about the forces involved and your assumptions about what force your cues can take without sustaining structural or cosmetic damage. But I have been doing this for 33 years at this point and seen a lot of situations where cues were damaged by cases that were assumed to be protective but actually were not.
My own $1200 Schon cue getting damaged by shooting out of a case when it was knocked off a table is the very reason I started tinkering with interior protection in the first place.

My feeling is that you possibly think I have invented a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If that's what you think then I absolutely disagree.

We know that cues in general are not made to take lateral force. They are not bo staffs or base ball bats. They are quite literally small pieces of wood that are thin walled at the joints and held together with glue and bolts. And to build one that stays intact even without lateral force is a miracle of engineering because of the fact that wood, plastic and metal all have different properties and react differently to adhesives, moisture and temperature.
So a pool cue has to be built to resist all of those aspects and stay intact in order to be useful to the user. I can't do anything to influence how cues are built. What I can do is build in padding that at least protects from the physical forces and vibrations that a cue goes through during transit.

Along the way I have also increased the resistance to temperature change as a by product of using tubes with a higher insulation value, increased the resistance to humidity by sealing the case to a higher degree than other brands, both of which have been a byproduct of adding full length padding to the interior of top loading cases.

You are absolutely right to ask if any of these claimed extra protections is backed by data. I often ask the same questions whenever I am looking at things I want to buy.

I gave you the answers that are truthful and are an accurate depiction of my experiences during the past 30 years.

Simply put I know more than you about cue construction and case construction. I am however not an engineer or a physicist. I test using primitive experiments such as jumping on full cases at shows with my $3000 worth of cues inside.

I test by telling customers to pick cases off the wall and try to tear them apart. I test by taking customer's cues and putting them inside my cases and turning the case upside down, and then shaking it like getting that last bit of pee out. I test by taking my cases and blasting it with a heat gun at 900 degrees.

I do all this and more because I have decided that my "thing" is cue protection. As we have discussed padding to protect something is better than no padding. There is not a single activity where fragile gear is used where the very most protective cases available are not well padded. None that I know of.

In fact the only reason you have any padding at all in your case is because of me. Wow that's quite arrogant to say isn't it? But it's true. Before I started adding padding to top-loading cases there weren't any that offered it.
Only after my designs gained popularity did we see other brands start to offer some padding. Other makers did the same as you and questioned the need for padding. One even went so far as to suggest that padded interiors were damaging to cues in an effort to justify his lack of padding.

So please understand that I am heavily invested in continually educating the public about what we do and why I think it matters. I don't do this as a marketing gimmick or to provide a solution where there is no problem.

And my competition, which are the endless knockoffs of my designs as well as other designs by other brands, would dearly love to not have to ever build a padded case at all because it is far easier and cheaper to not do so.

They would love to sell hollow tubes with compartments separated by thin material. Which they did before I came along and which they continue to do now with the only difference being that they add a little padding at the top to emulate my interiors and fool consumers into thinking that their interiors are as protective as mine.

And whenever those other brands advertise using language that claims protection that isn't there I feel obligated to correct the record.

I don't blame consumers for getting fooled and recommending those brands because consumers are not taking cases apart to check the claims. And a lot of brands wisely don't make certain claims so that they can just let consumers make assumptions based on appearance.

Those assumptions have led to consumers making defamatory statements like I am ripping people off by simply marketing my brand as better as they claim, without evidence, that the cheap knockoffs are exactly the same as my work and are made in the same factory.

And that's pretty much the only thing in your review that caught my attention. I understand that you feel attacked by others in this thread and I can even see why you might feel that I am attacking your judgement. I am not. I am rebutting your opinion that the case you bought is as good as my cases in the price category of 200-250 dollars.

That's it.

In my review I highlighted the differences and places I feel are potential problems, places that commonly develop problems in similarly built cases.
You in rebuttal decided to defend the manufacturer's choices and critique my assessment by essentially saying that my concerns are likely overblown because in your opinion the level of force your cues and the case will be subjected to isn't enough to harm the cues or the case.
Which might be true for you but it's unlikely to be true for everyone. Yet you recommended the case to everyone. In my world vouching for a product means I have thoroughly tested it and know how it compares to other products in that space in great detail. You will never see me buying a product off the shelf and tell the world that it is as good or better than other products in the same space when I haven't had had hands-on experience with the other products.

Let's just try to look at this from another standpoint.
What if you bought a $100 break cue and it performed amazingly but you didn't know that it was made of balsa wood inside and was doomed to fail within two months of use? You then went and recommend today everyone but one and your well-written review is picked up and shared widely. Then after 4 months reports start coming in of these cues breaking down and the performance plummeting. Would you feel any regret for convincing people to buy a product that appeared to be great but was actually really bad? What if you caused the sales of break cues that were actually well engineered and performed amazingly and cost five times as much to make?

And what if that in turn caused people to be laid off? Would that bother you?

The thing is that I have seen well-written and well-meaning reviews of actually bad products go viral and get shared everywhere. I have dealt with people wanting to buy my cases who have confronted me about the price based on reviews of cheap cases like yours. And while I am grateful that the customer gave me the opportunity to answer the claims made in the reviews I know full well that there are many more who simply believe what was written and exclude my work from consideration.

I have had to deal with a random person citing the review of a knockoff and calling me a liar and a thief. I have to then confront the claims.

So I have learned to be proactive when it comes to claims of equality between other brands and ours, even where our brand isn't mentioned. When claims are made that xyz brand is protective in ways that it is isn't our is built with quality that it actually isn't then I speak up about it.

Which is absolutely my right as both a maker and consumer. My two goals are to push the state of the art and to resist false claims.
I have a small company and 25 families depend on what we do. My competitors have companies that are way larger than me and they operate with far less ethics or concern for actual cue safety.
They send out $80 cases and never want to see them again. They take zero responsibility for cue damage knowing that most consumers won't suspect that the case was responsible for the damage. And in the few situations where consumers do rightly identify that the case is the source of the damage the sellers simply deny the possibility. I have evidence of such correspondence.

And then there is the poor quality of the case itself which is addressed with it's cheap what do you expect? I have sold hundreds of cases to people at shows because they showed up with a broken case from another brand.

So no, I don't think you are an idiot at all. I think that you were ignorant of the actual interior construction and I think that you have dug in to defend your decision to buy and use this case and in order to do so you must question whether the level of protection we offer is even necessary.

And I think that your conclusion is that our level of protection is not necessary and therefore a cheap case built exactly as yours is built is perfectly fine for all cue owners to protect their cues regardless of cue value or construction method.
If I have gotten any of that wrong please feel
free to correct me.

 

[JB Cases]

Again with this price range which I've already corrected in my original post.

I didn't want to get into a whole thing with you about your price range, so I politely agreed with you that your products start at $80 and one of your cases that looks similar to mine costs $250.

But if we're going to get into it... do they? When I was shopping for a new cue case a couple months ago, all of your cases that I could find were listed for at least $260 on e.g. Seyberts. Since your cases are clearly better than the one I bought, I picked $250 as the upper bound for comparison in my original post, because I didn't want anybody to think that the case I bought was comparable to e.g. one of your cases. I can't find any of your cases listed on any of the other major online retailers that I'm aware of. And if you go directly to your web site (how many customers do that?), all your cases are sold out, and almost all of them listed are over $300 anyway.

Not to mention that in your review of the Crical case, you disingenuously "forgot" that I originally specified $200 to $250 and bumped that up to $300 (no) and compared it to one of your cases that was over $250 ($280?) anyway even though you claimed that one of your similar-looking cases costs $250 on this thread.

I feel like we already sorted this out so I'm not sure why it's coming up again.

Disingeniously? When I do videos they are not planned and are off-the-cuff. If I have time then I will bring up the thread in question and show the posts on screen to be sure to get the details right. In this situation I made a video that was intended to be about 20 minutes before I had to be somewhere else. It turned into 40 minutes and I was running late. I don't know you and have no reason to think that you were anything but sincere in your recommendation. The accusation that I DELIBERATELY misrepresented the price range is false and it also misses the point entirely. The POINT is that you don't know the quality or protection level of all the cases in that price range. If I am mistaken and you have extensive experience with all the other brands in that price range then show your work and prove it. Otherwise making a STATEMENT that what you bought IS the equivalent of those cases is actually misinformation. For my part I was speaking off the cuff without having brought up the source material so my statement was a slight mistake at worst.

Thank you for thinking of us and choosing 250 I guess. But as I said it misses the point in my opinion.

That said,

There are over 500 cases in the 100-300 range on our website. Here are 479 of them in the 200-300 dollar range.

Cases for sale - In Stock | JB Cases | Custom Pool Designer Cases

These cases are either in stock for immediate shipment or can be ordered with an estmated 12-14 week delivery time. Please add product to cart to see the actual status, in-stock-ready-to-ship or backorder to-be-made.

jbcases.com

At seyberts here is a 2x5 with more capacity than the crical and for $230 literally the first choice when I go the JB cases page there.

JB Ultimate Rugged Black Pool Cue Case - URBK

Ultimate Rugged black cue case. This case is designed to hold 2 butts and 5 shafts or 3 butts and 4 shafts. JB Ultimate Rugged cases are made of durable nylon/polyester material with reinforced leather stress points. The case has a double zipper top along with 3 storage pockets and jump cue...

seyberts.com

As for your "polite" agreement and not wanting to "get into the whole price thing"...... we have filters that allow you to sort by price and if you do that then you will see that we have hundreds of cases below 250 as shown at the link above. So it sounds like you think I am a liar but "politely" decided not to call me out. Well the evidence shows that I am accurately representing the fact that our cases ARE available in the price range you chose.

Regarding cases being listed as "sold out" on our website and the question of how many people visit our site..... first nothing is listed as sold out. Cases are either in stock or not in stock or completely unavailable due to inability to get the materials. NOT IN STOCK listings are accompanied by a BUILD ME ONE option where the customer can order it to be built. As stated in the top of every page of listings we are a custom case maker and we don't always put the existing inventory up for the reasons stated. I would hope that you looked at this statement when you were looking for cases and understood it. If you did then your comments are the definition of disingenuous.

"Cases For Sale​

Cases listed as IN STOCK - READY TO SHIP which are ordered before 2pm CST will likely go out the same day or the next business day.

Occasionally cases listed as IN STOCK are not actually in stock. If you place an order and we don't have it we will call you to discuss options. We apologize in advance for any such situations, they are rare but can happen.

Since we do not list the number of cases in stock it can happen that a case which is listed as in stock now is ordered by someone else and is not in stock even five minutes later. If that happens the case can be ordered and we will build it for you in about 12-14 weeks and 16-20 for leather cases if there are no other changes.

Lastly, we are currently not listing the actual inventory that we have in stock. So please call us or email us to find out what we have in stock on the day you are interested and we can show you. This is due to a technicality on the website where we currently cannot prevent dealers from wiping out the in-stock inventory within hours of us putting the new cases up. Sorry for the inconvenience."

Here is a case with a similar design to the one I reviewed for $260. I would hope that you understand that people reading your reviews will not make a distinction between 250 and 260 when it comes to evaluating whether they believe your claims that the one you have is equivalent to a $250 case.

Anyway, you are quite right that this subject has been exhausted. I can't imagine that I have anything else to say about it. The only addition I will make is to do a new video when the crical model arrives that is the exact same as the one you reviewed. Because I made the first video without referencing your original post I didn't realize that I was reviewing a different model. So in the interest of being completely transparent I will make a new video and reference the original post along with the points raised in the conversation. That way I can hopefully avoid being called a disingenuous liar.

 

[JB Cases]

I'm not familiar with JB cases but a lot of them seem to look like e.g. this one:

25URBKPink - Cases For Sale | JB Cases | Custom Pool Designer Cases

This case holds 2 butts and 5 shafts or 3 butts and 4 shafts, with a maximum interior length capacity of 32.5". This case is made of durable nylon/polyester material with reinforced leather stress points, and features an UltraPad interior, comfortable ha

jbcases.com

Comparing to a variant of the Crical case that I bought:

amazon link

These cases look so similar that I would be shocked if they weren't manufactured at the same factory.

I have no doubt that the JB cases have certain higher-quality details and features but it feels like if you get one of these Chinese-branded cases, you're getting about 75% of the case for about 25% of the price.

Wow, so you are indeed someone who does the "same factory" thing. And you CLEARLY know that what you bought is a knockoff as evidenced by your looks so similar remark.

And honestly, you accused me of being DISINGENIOUS but you claimed to have been SEARCHING for cases and gone to our website and seyberts months ago but you say here you are UNFAMILIAR with JB Cases. Which is it?

I honestly didn't catch this post when I started responding to this thread or I would have taken a whole other tone.

The only cases made in our workshop are JB Cases. We don't make cases for anyone else under any other brand. We can quibble as to the difference between workshop and factory but in our shop the cases are made one at a time primarily by hand with a LOT of actual hand-sewing for extra strength in places where machine-sewing is impossible.

The case you have was made in a large factory on an assembly line. I know because I was there and the owner bragged to me about his assembly line. At the end of the assembly line the cases are packed with little to no quality inspection. Many of the cases made there are literally MISSING several inches of the ALREADY paper-thin nylon dividers.

No, you aren't getting 75% of the quality for 25% of the price. You are getting none of the quality and 5% of the protection for 30% of the price of a comparable JB case. You clearly think differently but you have never owned and most likely never even touched a JB Case to make a proper comparison. And your assertion that the case is equal to other brands in the $200-$250 range BASED ON PICTURES is equally absurd.

You stated AFTER THE EDIT:

"Overall, this cue case is a HUGE step up from the 2x2 hard cases that you see everywhere for ~$40. The quality seems great. From what I've seen, I feel like it's comparable to anything in the $200-$250 price range** from a US manufacturer or a US vendor. I would recommend it to anybody.

* It has been pointed out to me that the internal padding is only a few inches long and doesn't run the entire length of the case. So at the bottom end, the only thing preventing direct contact between the cues is a thin sheet of nylon fabric. Make purchasing decisions accordingly.

** There are cases in that price range that have full-length internal padding, so if you spend more, you can get a better case. I still contend that this case is a good value at $80 + shipping and tax."

Even after the whole discussion, you still don't understand that recommending a product that is NOT protective against damage caused by impact INSIDE THE CASE is a pretty crappy thing to do when you take zero responsibility for the damage that can occur. You literally do not care if someone's precious cue is damaged because they purchased based on your well-written review.

That's like recommending a Ford Pinto AFTER being informed that the gas tank is placed in such a way as to cause the occupants to burn to death with a rear-end collision in my opinion.

In fact this video sums it up for me:

 

[JB Cases]

It occurs to me that many golf bags are constructed in a similar way, even name-brand bags that aren't cheap. With padding at the top and then just some fabric separating the clubs at the bottom, such that they can clank around against each other.

Of course this clanking is even less of a problem with golf clubs, because they usually have rubber handles and it couldn't possibly matter if they hit each other.

But it makes me wonder if the design isn't actually on purpose for some reason. Like, maybe if they were padded all the way down, it would make the bag needlessly heavy, or it would be that much more difficult to slide the clubs in and out because of the increased friction. (More of an issue for golf clubs that are inserted/removed many times per round.)

Golf clubs are much more robustly constructed than pool cues. They also have rubber grips and odd shapes. So they are far less likely to be damaged by the type of impact that cues will experience in an unpadded tube.

There are in fact some golf club cases that have individual tubing in each slot. These are designed to prevent the clubs from banging against each other. I have taken apart many golf bags to study them and learn what I can to improve our construction. I have been asked many times to build custom golf bags WITH PADDED INTERIORS and I always decline because I am not set up for that and it's not my area of expertise AND because there are already a lot of well-made mass-produced cases being sold at prices I could never get close to.

 

[tomker]

I don't think you are an idiot. Not at all. In fact I like that you ask challenging questions. If I can't justify what I offer and the price I am asking then I don't deserve to be selling in my opinion.

But I absolutely disagree with your assertion that the protection level we offer is not quantifiable. Maybe it isn't to your satisfaction because of your assumptions about the forces involved and your assumptions about what force your cues can take without sustaining structural or cosmetic damage. ...

"Quantifiable" does mean that you can quantify the forces and damage involved. Saying "more padding offers more protection" is about qualities and not quantities. Maybe I am more keenly aware of this because I am a professional engineer.

But whatever, my point in saying that you couldn't quantify this stuff was not intended to be an attack, even though you seem to have taken it as one. You've already explained why you can't/haven't quantified this stuff and the explanations seem perfectly reasonable to me. I'm on your side on this. You obviously don't need to quantify anything to make and sell good cases.

I was mostly responding to the other poster who is literally calling me names and saying that I've been "defeated" in this conversation.

 

[JB Cases]

It sounds like the answer is obvious to you but I'm still struggling to understand it. Because I'm perfectly fine with my cues "clanking" together lengthwise.

We're talking about pretty lightweight wooden cylinders colliding with relatively small amounts of force distributed fairly evenly over the almost their entire lengths with the collision being aligned along their strongest axes.

I'm sure I learned how to calculate this exactly in freshman physics but instinctively I can't understand how this would possibly be a problem.

You forgot the fulcrum effect on 28" thin tapered cones constructed of many small parts held together with glue and bolts. I think that they didn't cover that in freshman physics.

If however, you are able to accurately calculate the amount of force that over 760 brands of cues can take in a way that can be verified then maybe you can revolutionize case-making by providing us all with the exact amount of protection needed to ensure that all of the joints present in a typical pool cue remain structurally sound. I am sure that your calculation will include the amount of oscillations and vibrations that are acceptable for even the worst-made cues. I assume that you will also provide a comprehensive guide to cue construction from worst to best so that all buyers of cues can be fully assured that as long as a case blunts the force to an acceptable degree then no damage to their cues will occur.

Or, if you're not going to do all then I guess "trust me bro" works for you to recommend a case that allows cues to bang against the tube wall and the cue parts should be enough.

 

[JB Cases]

"Quantifiable" does mean that you can quantify the forces and damage involved. Saying "more padding offers more protection" is about qualities and not quantities. Maybe I am more keenly aware of this because I am a professional engineer.

But whatever, my point in saying that you couldn't quantify this stuff was not intended to be an attack, even though you seem to have taken one. You've already explained why you can't/haven't quantified this stuff and the explanations seem perfectly reasonable to me. I'm on your side on this. You obviously don't need to quantify anything to make and sell good cases.

I was mostly responding to the other poster who is literally calling me names and saying that I've been "defeated" in this conversation.

As a professional engineer you should be aware that repeated vibration loosens joints where no extra consideration has been taken to mitigate the effects of the vibration. So when it comes to construction of a pool cue do you KNOW whether they have been constructed to take the lateral trauma and associated vibrations? Certainly most cues are strong enough to withstand the occasional fall but what about repeated knocks and vibrations?

I am happy to learn.

 

[tomker]

Wow, so you are indeed someone who does the "same factory" thing. And you CLEARLY know that what you bought is a knockoff as evidenced by your looks so similar remark.

A lot of cases look basically the same as your cases and the one I bought. If you say that yours is the original and the others are knockoffs, I will believe you.

And honestly, you accused me of being DISINGENIOUS but you claimed to have been SEARCHING for cases and gone to our website and seyberts months ago but you say here you are UNFAMILIAR with JB Cases. Which is it?

I suppose I was trying to make a distinction between AWARE of your cases and being FAMILIAR with your cases.

When I was cue shopping, I ran across your cases. I was definitely aware of them. Does that make me familiar with them? Other than knowing roughly what they looked like and what their price range was, no.

Some constructive criticism, I recall going to your web site late last year, clicking on "cues for sale," scrolling for a couple pages and seeing (almost?) no cases for sale under $250, and many cost much more than $250.

So you may offer a lot of cases for $250 or less but this was not obvious to me. Maybe you can rework your "cues for sale" page to make it more obvious. Maybe just have it be a few buttons like "Cue cases for under $100" and "Cue cases for under $250" etc. that take you to the same list, but filtered.

 

[tomker]

As a professional engineer you should be aware that repeated vibration loosens joints where no extra consideration has been taken to mitigate the effects of the vibration. So when it comes to construction of a pool cue do you KNOW whether they have been constructed to take the lateral trauma and associated vibrations? Certainly most cues are strong enough to withstand the occasional fall but what about repeated knocks and vibrations?

I am happy to learn.

I don't know. I'm not a wood or glue engineer, but I feel like you could have guessed that already. As an engineer I do know the difference between a quality and a quantity, though.

I'm sure that knocks and vibrations aren't GOOD for a cue, but how bad are they? I don't know. You don't either. Without measuring or observing anything, there's no point to speculating. I'm fine with that.

You have a theory that the padding acts as a fulcrum for the cues to pivot around and thus the padding causes more damage. Interesting theory, but all it is is a theory. It sounds reasonable to me. You may be right. I don't think your confidence is justified since you haven't measured anything but I will agree that you may be right. What you haven't seemed to take into account is that the padding will also obviously ABSORB a lot of any impact. Does that make it better or worse to have partial padding? I don't know.

I would LIKE to know more about all of this. Like you, I am happy to learn. But aggressive speculation is not going to result in that learning.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't know. I'm not a wood or glue engineer, but I feel like you could have guessed that already. As an engineer I do know the difference between a quality and a quantity, though.

I'm sure that knocks and vibrations aren't GOOD for a cue, but how bad are they? I don't know. You don't either. Without measuring or observing anything, there's no point to speculating. I'm fine with that.

You have a theory that the padding acts as a fulcrum for the cues to pivot around and thus the padding causes more damage. Interesting theory, but all it is is a theory. It sounds reasonable to me. You may be right. I don't think your confidence is justified since you haven't measured anything but I will agree that you may be right. What you haven't seemed to take into account is that the padding will also obviously ABSORB a lot of any impact. Does that make it better or worse to have partial padding? I don't know.

I would LIKE to know more about all of this. Like you, I am happy to learn. But aggressive speculation is not going to result in that learning.

I have a hypothesis backed by plenty of anecdotal experience and real world testing where I put cues in cases with no padding and subjected them to lateral force and put my cues in my cases and subjected them to roughly the same forces with no damage to my cues. And yes I know anecdotal evidence is the weakest form of evidence. But it's still better than ignorant speculation.

What I do know and which you have agreed with is that padding is better than no padding and more padding is better than a little padding. that much is obvious without any need to quantify it. And furthermore padding on one end with no padding on the other end increases the force applied to the joints. Do you disagree with that?

What concerns me more is the willingness to recommend a case with NO PADDING below the initial first couple inches to everyone even after being shown the properties. That you are an engineer makes it worse in my opinion. I don't know any engineer who would tell everyone that using such a case is enough to protect their cues or even imply it based on comparisons of exterior appearance with other brands.

And the statement that you "would be shocked" if your case and JB cases weren't made in the same factory is extremely rude and unbecoming of an engineer that should deal in facts and not baseless speculation. You had no need to say that other than spite in my opinion. Keep in mind you said this well before I showed up. Furthermore saying that people get 75% of the quality for 25% of the price is wholly ignorant and not what I would expect from an engineer. The engineers I know personally who are pool players are much more demure when it comes to expounding on things they are not familiar with.

I agree that "aggressive" speculation isn't a substitute for accurate data but given that you said that how is ignorant speculation that claims quality (and protection) parity with other brands and ignorant claims of origin any better? If you want specific data from me then shouldn't you also expect yourself to provide accurate information to the world when you are vouching for something?

 

[JB Cases]

A lot of cases look basically the same as your cases and the one I bought. If you say that yours is the original and the others are knockoffs, I will believe you.


I suppose I was trying to make a distinction between AWARE of your cases and being FAMILIAR with your cases.

When I was cue shopping, I ran across your cases. I was definitely aware of them. Does that make me familiar with them? Other than knowing roughly what they looked like and what their price range was, no.

Some constructive criticism, I recall going to your web site late last year, clicking on "cues for sale," scrolling for a couple pages and seeing (almost?) no cases for sale under $250, and many cost much more than $250.

So you may offer a lot of cases for $250 or less but this was not obvious to me. Maybe you can rework your "cues for sale" page to make it more obvious. Maybe just have it be a few buttons like "Cue cases for under $100" and "Cue cases for under $250" etc. that take you to the same list, but filtered.

"Cases for sale" is the category. They are filterable by price. Doing so nets results that clearly show plenty of cases in the 200-250 range. The suggestion to add specific buttons is a good one and I will implement that in the next iteration of the website.

Is it not clear enough when there is a prominent "SHOP BY" filtering system clearly available on the website?

 

[tomker]

Earlier you told someone that they should learn how to use the internet.

I just searched the thread for the words "learn" and "internet" and I can find no post where I said anything of the sort.

But if we're at the point of the conversation where we're just going to insult each other, how about you learn the decades-old convention that grey UI items are inoperable, hence the phrase "greyed-out."

The way your web site is designed, your "Shop By" UI looks like it's greyed out. Why would anybody think to click on it? I didn't.

 

[JB Cases]

I just searched the thread for the words "learn" and "internet" and I can find no post where I said anything of the sort.

But if we're at the point of the conversation where we're just going to insult each other, how about you learn the decades-old convention that grey UI items are inoperable, hence the phrase "greyed-out."

The way your web site is designed, your "Shop By" UI looks like it's greyed out. Why would anybody think to click on it? I didn't.

Not looking to insult you and I was also wrong that you said it and edited my post shortly after posting.

Everyone here who me knows that if I wanted to insult you then I would very clearly do so.

The color theme you are referring to is used on thousands of websites by default from the Magento 1.9 e-commerce platform.

So no I don't think that the filters being grey is the same as "greyed" out.

You mentioned seyberts and I also showed you that they have JB Cases at 230 dollars.

All I am doing is responding to your comments. You have criticized my responses and I have merely responded with my rebuttals. That's simply dialog.

The point of a discussion forum is to discuss. That's what we are doing.

Meanwhile, the readers might find this testimonial that was just posted to Facebook amusing.

 

[JB Cases]

And before people say that the guy was stupid..... Everyone thinks it will never happen to them until it happens. By the way the reason that the case protects in this situation is because we use new pure resin pellets rather than recycled pellets for our tubing and we make the skin so tight that it takes 2-3 strong guys to put it on. This serves to add extra strength to the tubing and helps to distribute the weight. We have had numerous people drive over their cases including one dually truck and one box truck. One guy flipped his car and it landed on the case. One lady thought she ran over her cat and was happy up see it was her case. And even happier when the cues came out unharmed.

 

[JS858]

Disingeniously? When I do videos they are not planned and are off-the-cuff. If I have time then I will bring up the thread in question and show the posts on screen to be sure to get the details right. In this situation I made a video that was intended to be about 20 minutes before I had to be somewhere else. It turned into 40 minutes and I was running late. I don't know you and have no reason to think that you were anything but sincere in your recommendation. The accusation that I DELIBERATELY misrepresented the price range is false and it also misses the point entirely. The POINT is that you don't know the quality or protection level of all the cases in that price range. If I am mistaken and you have extensive experience with all the other brands in that price range then show your work and prove it. Otherwise making a STATEMENT that what you bought IS the equivalent of those cases is actually misinformation. For my part I was speaking off the cuff without having brought up the source material so my statement was a slight mistake at worst.

Thank you for thinking of us and choosing 250 I guess. But as I said it misses the point in my opinion.

That said,

There are over 500 cases in the 100-300 range on our website. Here are 479 of them in the 200-300 dollar range.

Cases for sale - In Stock | JB Cases | Custom Pool Designer Cases

These cases are either in stock for immediate shipment or can be ordered with an estmated 12-14 week delivery time. Please add product to cart to see the actual status, in-stock-ready-to-ship or backorder to-be-made.

jbcases.com

At seyberts here is a 2x5 with more capacity than the crical and for $230 literally the first choice when I go the JB cases page there.

JB Ultimate Rugged Black Pool Cue Case - URBK

Ultimate Rugged black cue case. This case is designed to hold 2 butts and 5 shafts or 3 butts and 4 shafts. JB Ultimate Rugged cases are made of durable nylon/polyester material with reinforced leather stress points. The case has a double zipper top along with 3 storage pockets and jump cue...

seyberts.com

As for your "polite" agreement and not wanting to "get into the whole price thing"...... we have filters that allow you to sort by price and if you do that then you will see that we have hundreds of cases below 250 as shown at the link above. So it sounds like you think I am a liar but "politely" decided not to call me out. Well the evidence shows that I am accurately representing the fact that our cases ARE available in the price range you chose.

Regarding cases being listed as "sold out" on our website and the question of how many people visit our site..... first nothing is listed as sold out. Cases are either in stock or not in stock or completely unavailable due to inability to get the materials. NOT IN STOCK listings are accompanied by a BUILD ME ONE option where the customer can order it to be built. As stated in the top of every page of listings we are a custom case maker and we don't always put the existing inventory up for the reasons stated. I would hope that you looked at this statement when you were looking for cases and understood it. If you did then your comments are the definition of disingenuous.

"Cases For Sale​

Cases listed as IN STOCK - READY TO SHIP which are ordered before 2pm CST will likely go out the same day or the next business day.

Occasionally cases listed as IN STOCK are not actually in stock. If you place an order and we don't have it we will call you to discuss options. We apologize in advance for any such situations, they are rare but can happen.

Since we do not list the number of cases in stock it can happen that a case which is listed as in stock now is ordered by someone else and is not in stock even five minutes later. If that happens the case can be ordered and we will build it for you in about 12-14 weeks and 16-20 for leather cases if there are no other changes.

Lastly, we are currently not listing the actual inventory that we have in stock. So please call us or email us to find out what we have in stock on the day you are interested and we can show you. This is due to a technicality on the website where we currently cannot prevent dealers from wiping out the in-stock inventory within hours of us putting the new cases up. Sorry for the inconvenience."

Here is a case with a similar design to the one I reviewed for $260. I would hope that you understand that people reading your reviews will not make a distinction between 250 and 260 when it comes to evaluating whether they believe your claims that the one you have is equivalent to a $250 case.

Anyway, you are quite right that this subject has been exhausted. I can't imagine that I have anything else to say about it. The only addition I will make is to do a new video when the crical model arrives that is the exact same as the one you reviewed. Because I made the first video without referencing your original post I didn't realize that I was reviewing a different model. So in the interest of being completely transparent I will make a new video and reference the original post along with the points raised in the conversation. That way I can hopefully avoid being called a disingenuous liar.

no argument from me on the context of the discussion or the quality of your products but I had to jump in here and call this out…

The link you provided to your site returns cases that are Not in stock.
There’s no easy or intuitive way to filter on your site what is in stock and available for immediate purchase.
Trying to use the search bar returns 29 different qualifiers for in stock cases. And guess what every single one lands on? Absolutely nothing that is in stock.
If there’s one thing I can agree with the OP on in this entire back and forth, it’s that your website has got to be one of the worst UX websites on the planet.
Likewise, the link to seyberts, they have zero cases in stock.
So no, really neither you or seyberts actually have something that he could have bought instead if he wanted to.

Everyone who has one of your cases agrees they are hands down the best quality cases available. There is zero value trying to win people over on the internet by discussing construction methods, build quality, or in making videos deconstructing competitors cases just to try and prove it.
All of that is already absolutely indisputable.
But it’s also indisputable that it’s a total shitshow trying to get ahold of one.

Having people order and wait 3 months, or making them sit thru 2 hour Facebook live ‘auctions’ in the middle of the day just to try and get a stock case in a basic color is a pretty ridiculous business model. It’s no wonder that some people just give up and buy something else.

 

[tomker]

Not looking to insult you and I was also wrong that you said it and edited my post shortly after posting.
Everyone here who me knows that if I wanted to insult you then I would very clearly do so.
The color theme you are referring to is used on thousands of websites by default from the Magento 1.9 e-commerce platform.
So no I don't think that the filters being grey is the same as "greyed" out.

I did, and I'm sure other people have, too. Do you have telemetry on how many people click on those buttons?

You mentioned seyberts and I also showed you that they have JB Cases at 230 dollars.

I noticed those models when we started talking with each other several days ago but I'm pretty sure they weren't listed on Seybert's when I was shopping back in December. If you have some way to prove me wrong about this, cool.

...
Meanwhile, the readers might find this testimonial that was just posted to Facebook amusing.

That's great, but I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here.

I started this thread to post my review of a particular cue case. I put a price range in my original post that was specifically intended to avoid comparisons with your cue cases and other cue cases in the $250-$300+ range that are clearly more durable, more protective, and/or otherwise better.

It looks like I messed up with my price range, which I've admitted is my fault (sorry), but the idea is that my Crical case is not comparable to one of your cases and thus probably shouldn't be compared.

So all this stuff about how great and durable your cue cases are is interesting but it feels like you've hijacked the thread with an advertisement for your products.

 

[garczar]

no argument from me on the context of the discussion or the quality of your products but I had to jump in here and call this out…

The link you provided to your site returns cases that are Not in stock.
There’s no easy or intuitive way to filter on your site what is in stock and available for immediate purchase.
Trying to use the search bar returns 29 different qualifiers for in stock cases. And guess what every single one lands on? Absolutely nothing that is in stock.
If there’s one thing I can agree with the OP on in this entire back and forth, it’s that your website has got to be one of the worst UX websites on the planet.
Likewise, the link to seyberts, they have zero cases in stock.
So no, really neither you or seyberts actually have something that he could have bought instead if he wanted to.

Everyone who has one of your cases agrees they are hands down the best quality cases available. There is zero value trying to win people over on the internet by discussing construction methods, build quality, or in making videos deconstructing competitors cases just to try and prove it.
All of that is already absolutely indisputable.
But it’s also indisputable that it’s a total shitshow trying to get ahold of one.

Having people order and wait 3 months, or making them sit thru 2 hour Facebook live ‘auctions’ in the middle of the day just to try and get a stock case in a basic color is a pretty ridiculous business model. It’s no wonder that some people just give up and buy something else.

agree on the site and business model, i bought mine used because no one had one and i didn't want to wait. As for this thread I don't get why JB has basically written two full-length novels trying to explain to this dingbat why knock-off cases suck. This tomkat or whatever he's called is clearly thickheaded to the point that facts/reason mean nothing to him. JB made his point about 5000 words ago but the guy is having none of it.