8 ball rules question

[David in FL]

No, it's a bank that you were required to call.

pj
chgo

He "called" the right ball in the right pocket. As described, it would have been 100% obvious to everybody there which ball and which pocket were intended.

Had the ball gone into the side after 3 rails, it wouldn't have been good. Your interpretation brings to mind silly bar rules requiring that short rails be called as "banks".

Sometimes, if the situation isn't addressed explicitly, the players/referee needs to consider the intent of the rule.

How can the pocket be obvious if the path to it isn't?

pj
chgo

Simple. As it relates to the accidental path in the situation posed by the OP.

The straight in path for that ball to that pocket was certainly obvious.

 

[markjames]

Apparently not a good shot and would be loss of game, if you have agreed to the rules that you are required to call all banks.

However, for the proper rules where you only have to call ball and pocket, it would indeed count no matter how it gets to the intended pocket.

apparently not a good shot because he didn’t say APA rules or BCA rules

and he didn’t ask what usually happens where you play, such as ‘it doesn’t matter how it gets there’

so i would guess that the reason it was said that obvious shots don’t have to be called is because the game is call shot

to eliminate slop and sloppy play

so unless a four rail bank was called, and not a one rail bank or two, it’s inconsequential that the ball fell in the obvious pocket, so loss of (turn)

 

[Texas Carom Club]

the very best way to handle this situation is never play fkn 8ball

 

[markjames]

we can debate online later back and forth

and he changed the question for the rules
gurus from 8 ball to any ball

but the spirit of the game and the intention
of the shooter has to be understood

 

[Jerry R]

Generally everything in this area is VNEA rules.

I completely understand when you call ball/pocket it doesn't matter how it gets there.
The sticking point comes in when all banks must be called and then the shooter "accidentally" banked the ball it starts to get into the gray area of determining intent.
Personally, I would not make a big deal of it and likely laugh it off with a sarcastic "that's not how I would have played it" sort of comment, but there are guys that do make a big deal over things like this, and I just wanted to see what the AZB community thought.

 

[markjames]

there are guys that do make a big deal over things like this

never make a big deal over this stuff,
give them the shot and move on

 

[bbb]

I’m sorry, but I have not had time to read every post in this thread
Could someone give me the monarch notes as far as did the shot count?
Yes, or no?
Thanks

 

[markjames]

monarch notes

There’s a white diamond gloom on the dark side of this room
And a pathway that leads up to the stars
If you don’t believe there’s a price for this sweet paradise
Remind me to show you the scars

 

[maha]

seems if he called the pocket then it counts no matter how it goes. that's the rules and the spirit of the rules.

but if he didn't call the pocket as he thought the shot was obvious which it was, but it turned out not obvious the shot doesn't count.
he made the choice to not call the pocket.

 

[mjantti]

Generally everything in this area is VNEA rules.

Personally, I would not make a big deal of it and likely laugh it off with a sarcastic "that's not how I would have played it" sort of comment, but there are guys that do make a big deal over things like this, and I just wanted to see what the AZB community thought.

Usually players making a big deal of a something that is generally considered trivial are too proud of themselves of learning a new rules trick to obfuscate playing and most of the time are beyond any logical argumentation coming from the opposing side. "X at the AzB forum said..." is not enough to convince them

 

[straightline]

The situation should be clarified beforehand since it can come up. It should hinge on called or not called. I give the scenario a pass.

 

[krupa]

Generally everything in this area is VNEA rules.


The sticking point comes in when all banks must be called and then the shooter "accidentally" banked the ball it starts to get into the gray area of determining intent.

VNEA rules say (I added the bold)

In Call Pocket, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated. It is the opponent’s right to ask which ball and pocket if he is unsure of the shot. Banks and combinations are not considered obvious and both the object ball and the pocket must be called or it is a loss of turn. When calling the shot, it is NEVER necessary to indicate details such as the number of cushions, banks, kisses, caroms, etc.

This lines up with other call pocket rules and what I and some others have said. When the shot is obvious you don't need to call it and how the object ball gets to the pocket is irrelevant. The rules-writers state that a bank shot is "not considered obvious" so "the object ball and the pocket must be called." Your original scenario was a straight-in, obvious shot. Even if you intentionally banked it four rails, it does not need to be called because the intended ball and intended pocket were obvious.

This happened in a 14.1 match between Harriman and Archer. Harriman had an obvious break ball (5 in the corner) and he did not verbally call it because everyone knew what he was doing. He rattled the ball, it came out, kissed off another ball banked off the opposite rail and went into the original pocket. He kept shooting (obviously.)

 

[David in FL]

I’m sorry, but I have not had time to read every post in this thread
Could someone give me the monarch notes as far as did the shot count?
Yes, or no?
Thanks

Yes.

With a single, very well respected dissenting vote who happens to be wrong this time.

 

[Cornerman]

I have a question for the rules gurus.
You’re playing 8 ball and the rules state you do not need to call an obvious shot, but you MUST call all banks and combos.
You end up straight in on the 8 ball, but miss it so bad that it goes 4 rails and falls into the pocket that you “obviously” were shooting at.

Is it still a good shot?

This actually happened to me, but I actually called the 8-ball even if it was an obvious shot. I shot the 8-ball, it doubled the jaws, banked across the table and fell into the pocket. My opponent asked for a ruling, and the TD asked if I called the pocket, and my opponent said I did. The fact this was even a question made me rethink the “obvious pocket” thing.

It’s an interesting situation that fortunately for me, I was and still in the habit of calling the 8-ball. Had I not, the opponent would have had a point to argue. Especially since he was pissed that i hit it so badly and lucked it out.

The other part of this story is that this was a race to 3, I had broke the first game, and he ran the table. He broke the 2nd game and I ran the set, which included the game above. I’d be irate, too.

 

[fastone371]

the very best way to handle this situation is never play fkn 8ball

Yeah, that's it cause its not like you have to call anything in 10 ball. SMH!!!!!

 

[Texas Carom Club]

Yeah, that's it cause its not like you have to call anything in 10 ball. SMH!!!!!

playing 8b with 500 fargos is like nightmare on elm street, you never know what theyre gonna pull out of where

 

[maha]

as in any tournament know all the rules and follow them and use them when it is to your advantage. that is part of the game.

 

[gregcantrall]

I was and still in the habit of calling the 8-ball.

That's a habit I have developed. Verbalizing the shot has a positive effect with my subconscious as well. Quite often I call every shot as a part of my PSR. It helps me stay centered.