Custom and High End Cues on the Decline?

Benelli said:
I get it now, you have no clue what you're talking about, let's break it down.

You make some stunning leaps in logic because you don't know what you're talking about. The first massive one is when you compare Eddie's business model to Mezz, which could not be further apart. You made this assumption based not on dealing directly with Eddie or with any custom cue maker that I can tell.

You did this... by... wait for it.

Looking at his fucking website...

Wow, just wow.. So, because Eddie shows lots of cues that are currently sold out, your lizard brain said BAM just like Mezz. But what you don't realize is that those pictures represent about five years' worth of cues and are all one-offs's not production models. Several of the cues on his site, I would say well over half of those photos are custom commissions that he has posted the pics just for people to see his range of design and build quality. But you can't buy one, and there NEVER GOING TO BE IN STOCK again...

So nothing like Mezz at all. Mezz are NOT CUSTOM CUE's anymore than Joss, Schon, or McDermott are custom cues.

Eddie's true custom cue's will cost you between 4K and 6K, the ones he post on the website for sale, roughly five to six a YEAR cost between 2k and 4K. So yes, there is an audience for Eddie's cues, he has generated it himself via his content, but that audience numbers under 100 people that would actually buy one of his cues, not the TENS OF THOUSANDS that are trying to purchase a Mezz production cue that numbers in the high hundreds to low thousands made...

Your entire wish-washy supposition that custom cues will always attract some has nothing to do with the original point of this post, which was that the custom cue market is not doing well and custom cues as a whole do not really hold their value, much less appreciating. This is happening because the number of buyers that are looking for, much less choosing a custom cue over a production cue, is rapidly diminishing.

Yes some custom cues, Gina's, BB, Szam's are doing well but are still well off their highs of a few years ago. But unless there is a large injection of moneyed, young, collectors actively acquiring these and other makers' cues at a high enough clip to drive buying pressure and increase price via buying competition. The prices of used cues will continue to fall, while the number of new cues being created will decrease, as the number of people commissioning them also declines due to... death.

All of this is underpinned by the fact that many of the high-tech production cues like Mezz and Predator are of high enough quality in both hit and feel that there is no reason to chase a custom cue any longer.

I don't know I agree with this statement, but as a C-level marketer, I can tell you that these companies spend millions of dollars a year to convince entry-level players of this and are very, very successful at it.

Which is why I can take a 15K Balabushka to APA league night and NO ONE GIVES A SHIT, but if it were the latest Shane Van Gorst, Mosconi Cup Choke on the Nine Limited Edition, everyone would be falling over themselves to fondle it, hit a ball with it and then line up on eBay to pay $300 TO $600 over MSRP to have one...

Yes, custom-made cues are in trouble...
Click to expand...
Benelli, that was a brilliant break down of what it takes to create a true custom cue. As been discussed, the market is limited to a few people willing to spend that kind of money, he likes to give the impression from his videos that they are made in a flash. Anyone who knows that kind of work, takes time.

Your right, the amount that goes into marketing these production cues must be an absolute ton of money.
Aimed at the club players, thinking they will play like the pro sponsoring that company.
I don't think its coincidence that the rise in carbon fibre and fancy production cues has had a huge impact on the custom market. Hopefully one day, those days will come back! And we will see pros using them again!
That is one thing, snooker still has at the top level. Simpler designs i know, but just much a custom.

And i can't believe that about your balabushka, how the hell, no one noticed is insane. Its about production cues now.
 
skogstokig said:
is that afr. blackwood?
Click to expand...
It's Gaboon Ebony. Here is a picture I took on a sunny day where (to my surprise) the logo on the joint protectors was projected onto the shadow of the cue.
1000007414.jpg
 
I think a lot of hit has to do with availability. The first real pool hall I went to as a teenager had quite a selection of Viking, Joss, McDermott and some customers cues. My first cue in 1991 was a Viking PJ that was $140 give or take. Cousins Custom Cues were the nicer ones I recall from that hall, Buffalo Billiards in Cotati, and the owner Lee liked them. I think the PJ was $300 from CCC. I tried a few and bought the one that I played best with, the Viking.

It wasn’t until I was maybe 26/7 that I found a shop in the Portland area, Billiards N Bagels, that had a huge selection of custom cues. Jim was cool, you could try whatever you wanted, and I was able to play with vintage Joss, Coker, SW, Sailor, Runde, Schon, Jacoby, Black ….. That was 20 years ago.

I have never been to another shop that had a selection to try before you buy. When I see league, it’s a sea of carbon fiber. I was talking with a buddy a week or so ago about how good shaft wood, I mean the good old stuff that was common from 60-90’s cues, is hard to find and people like the idea that they can play well with carbon and they don’t need to worry about a cue warping.

Another thing, I remember Jim complaining about new cue makers, mind you this was 20 years ago, complaining about new cue makers asking high dollar for cues and the maker had no real pedigree.

There are many layers to why people spend what they do on cues, and these are just a couple of ideas.
 
Bavafongoul said:
I finally decided these are my favorite 3 cues to play with using 3rd party Kielwood shafts I bought.
And one of these cues just plays a notch above the other two, both of which are really nice to use.

However, if I only play using the orig. maple shafts, only the Scruggs remains in both top 3 groups.
What amazed me is how KW shafts really do play better than the same weight original maple shafts.

The other 3 cues in my case (6x12) have the same threads as the cues in the photo so I can pull one
any time and play with a Kielwood shaft. Screw CF….I’ve always played wood shafts & KW is great.

p.s. I think custom cues will endure over time and at least retain orig. value rather drop like other cues.
Click to expand...
left to right
prewitt/?/cruggs
who made the cue in the middle?
all great looking
 
bbb said:
left to right
prewitt/?/cruggs
who made the cue in the middle?
all great looking
Click to expand...
Bob Owen…….it was a design I came up before Bob stopped using ivory. The date on the cue was its anticipated completion date. It arrived Memorial Day weekend 2016. July 1, 2016 California enacted a ban on the sale/use of ivory. I could still have cues made but ivory is just so unique if I can’t use it in my cues, there’s not much reason to get any more cues.
 
HawaiianEye said:
I played with a 14mm for decades.

I still prefer fatter shafts than most people.

I can put as much spin on the cue ball with a fat shaft as I can with a thinner one.

Here is a 60" Gulyassy White Ebony Merry Widow if he wants to see one. I even have a 14mm Earl shaft with a black ferrule that Gulyassy made me for this cue (not pictured)

View attachment 868251

View attachment 868252

View attachment 868262

View attachment 868263
Click to expand...
Gulyassy had a cue with this wood on display at the Super Billiard Expo one year and was asking something like $7k for it. I just had to shake my head. He did a tip for me and charged $20 for a tip pad.

I do hope you're happy with the cue and have good dealings with him.
 
garczar said:
No players under the age of, say, 45ish give a shit about the 'mystique' of a custom cue. A cue is a tool nothing more. I started back when the belief was that to play good you had to go custom. Those days are gone forever. Good playing cues can be had from 100bux on up.
Click to expand...
Shut your dirty whore mouth 🤣🤣🤣 how dare you
 
garczar said:
where i play its almost like a big, black line as far as cue type and age go. none of the younger crowd use or give a shit about hi-end custom cues. almost all use some sort of cf shaft on a generic butt. the only players in the joint that use customs are the 50+ crowd and most of them are buying Cuetec's or some random import with a cf shaft. Its rare to even see a Joss or a Schon anymore, younger guy/gals don't have any 'cue history' like most of us do. As older players fade away customs will be a rarity.
Click to expand...
I hate you 😁
 
The young normally cant afford them
skip100 said:
Of course they are on the decline.

The number 1 way to slow the decline is for owners of nice custom cues to play with them regularly and promote them to the next generation. Most younger pool players have never seen these things, let alone spent much time with them. People need education about why they are interesting and special and worth thousands of dollars. You don’t need to get that many players intrigued to prop up what is really quite a small market.
Click to expand...
 
HawaiianEye said:
It adds a bit of weight to the cue.

I have never weighed it.

Now you got me interested.

I will have to weigh it.

FWIW, it really doesn't matter to me because I don't use it on the cue for normal playing. I just put it on when I can't reach a shot.
Click to expand...
I play with my extension on my ted Harris all the time ~ 25oz 😲 havent played with it in a while but absolutely loved it. My Mobley i play with had a CF extension that a screw came loose on, it rattles now, so I don't use it. The Mobley was made for Earl and its probably 12.5 or less all the way back to about 5" from the joint.

Funny thing is, I had my T Harris similar before I got Earls cue, didnt know he was doing the same thing. Great minds 🤔
 
skip100 said:
Of course they are on the decline.

The number 1 way to slow the decline is for owners of nice custom cues to play with them regularly and promote them to the next generation. Most younger pool players have never seen these things, let alone spent much time with them. People need education about why they are interesting and special and worth thousands of dollars. You don’t need to get that many players intrigued to prop up what is really quite a small market.
Click to expand...
I let everybody(that wants to) hit with mine, thats what they're made for
 
garczar said:
A few reasons i rarely hit a ball with my classic Jensen 'bushka: its in perfect condition after Cody's re-finish and i don't want any damage done. second and more important is they way it plays. with stiff shafts and ivory ferrules it deflects massively. my other cues play nothing like it and to use it i'd have to use it only and that's not happening. its pretty but modern stuff plays better.
Click to expand...
What a great guy Mike is, if he had tightened up his tolerances he would have been up there with the best. Oddly enough, his tolerances were on par with most Richard Black's, he just didnt have the name recognition.
 
Bavafongoul said:
A few months ago I was at the range qualifying for renewal of my CCW permit.
All of the guns on my permit are pretty standard versions and I chose my guns
on a variety of factors. One thingI hadn’t seriously considered was a custom gun.

There was a retired Highway Patrolman at the range the night I was there. He was
firing a Bill Wilson EDC X9 2.0 (9mm) - 3.25” custom 1911 design pistol. It is a $4k
gun when you add sales tax, registration, etc. it costs a lot more than my handguns.

Was it worth it? I had to find out and so I introduced myself and asked about the gun,
features, lead time, cost, accessories, accuracy and shootability. The owner said the
best way is to fire the gun and he handed me a couple of 15 rd. Mags and said here
ya go. Of course, I reciprocated and said he could try any of the handguns I had with
me. It turned out to be a enlightening experience. Yes, custom guns are built much better.

I walked away wondering why I hadn’t gotten one by now. I’ve spent more than that on
a pool cue and more than once. If a piece of wood built and adorned to look and play
the way you like, isn’t a gun that will last ad infinitem when cared for worth as much?

Besides, you don’t carry a pool cue to protect you from threat and harm but it’s exactly
why I carry a gun. I have it on my person every day but I don’t shoot pool every day. A
gun has a lot more significance and after firing the Bill Wilson custom 1911 design, I want
one badly, Better quality is easily discerned both in terms of a pool cue and a handgun.
IMO, the price difference is cost justifiable and the intrinsic value is always going to be high.
Click to expand...
You nailed it, I play Becue cues because they are not built for aesthetcs but to be a great playing cue based on how the cue transfers power to the cueball, they have 3 different shafts that are designed for 3 different types of hit, my favorite is the Prime II 12.0, it plays the most like a wooden shaft in my opinion, I don't care who else uses them, they are not the cheapest cue nor the most expensive just a great playing cue that works for me, I think more players are concerned more about how a cue plays than how it looks today, it's not ugly, it just looks different than what a traditional cue looks like.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Garczar…….I have a question for you.

How much would playing with a cue diminish its value, presuming the cue remains in excellent condition?
Does replacing the cue shaft tips from playing with the cue lower it’s value? How many hours of play over
the years is normal, acceptable, inconsequential or important for assigning value to the cue?

I know a unfired gun is worth more than one that’s been used. With recurved bows, it’s probably not the same.
Sure, with cars it makes sense but what about high end watches like Rolex? They don’t seem to lose much value
after being worn, especially when it is not much. So I don’t know how much a cue is impacted by previous use.

The two most valuable cues I own, or so I’m supposing, are my Scruggs and Prewitt cues. The TS cue appreciated
since I got it largely because Tim passed away so there’s a finite population but Ed is still active cue maker so that
obviously doesn’t factor in. So if my Scruggs was unplayed or saw little play, how much more is it worth? And since
Ed’s cues tend to be a little pricier than most from what I’ve seen, how much has playing with my cue hurt its value?

Both cues should be relatively easy to sell when priced right but how much more would a cue appreciate from not being played. It never entered my mind those two cues were pre-owned and looked like they saw very little play but that might not have been true. The cues could have been well taken care of work horses. The only thing that ever mattered to me was do I like the design and how do the cues play. So how much is a used pool cue price impacted from having been played vs. new?
Click to expand...
To be honest, most people have overvalued the "scruggs died" money bump. The only ones to benefit from this are bushka and a lesser extent Szamboti. I cant imagine paying more for a scruggs pre vs post. Now don't get me wrong, Scruggs probably played better than both
...but
 
mikemosconi said:
Contact the known top five makers in the U.S. and they will have long wait lists . There are less cue makers. Less people seeking customs as new, but there is still a core demand for the best makers. Only a deep economic depression would kill the industry.
Click to expand...
Those guys are a step or multiple steps above everybody else
Searing
Showman
Mobley
Szamboti
Southwest( even though I don't agree)
Black Boar
 
Bavafongoul said:
Bob Owen…….it was a design I came up before Bob stopped using ivory. The date on the cue was its anticipated completion date. It arrived Memorial Day weekend 2016. July 1, 2016 California enacted a ban on the sale/use of ivory. I could still have cues made but ivory is just so unique if I can’t use it in my cues, there’s not much reason to get any more cues.
Click to expand...
Not to side rail the thread
But i had an eddie cohen hebrew sig with ivory sent to me the day before the deadline
It is the last or next to last cue with ivory i think he made
I sold most of my collection and no longer own it
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top