Push Foul Explanation

[Kjackxon]

I’m looking for direction to help a friend and competitor understand how unnecessary back hand english can lead to fouls. He has what I call a “Yip Stroke” in which he decelerates and then accelerates his stroke through the ball. The strike is more of a thud - You can see the tip deflect and then strike the cue ball again.

We leave fouls to the digression of the shooter. If I’m the shooter, I’ll ask the opponent what did he see. In this case, he fouls on every other shot within a diamond length. I shrugged it off and asked him to watch his stick movement.

The last straws broke when he tried to play a weird combo. His follow through veered to the right and moved a couple of balls. I asked him if he felt the balls move, and retorted that he never touched any balls.

I again cautioned him on controlling his cue stick, and his BHE was causing unnecessary fouls. He loudly said that this was his style, and that he wasn’t going to change. I told him that it’s call whether to call a foul as agreed, and all I could do is make him aware, and call the subsequent fouls.

To prove my point, I replayed Dr Dave’s video on double hits. He stopped being belligerent and was very quiet. I didn’t tell him how to shoot, just that his actions carried real consequences.

If you were in a match with this type of player, would you take the same path as I did, or would you walk away? I stuck it out, and played through the shark. And I shot quite well after getting out of a stress jacket.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

You handled it like gentleman. What was his reaction?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Close, but not quite a push foul - that’s when your tip remains on the cue ball longer than normal. This sounds like its cousin, a double hit foul.

pj
chgo

 

[fastone371]

I’m looking for direction to help a friend and competitor understand how unnecessary back hand english can lead to fouls. He has what I call a “Yip Stroke” in which he decelerates and then accelerates his stroke through the ball. The strike is more of a thud - You can see the tip deflect and then strike the cue ball again.

We leave fouls to the digression of the shooter. If I’m the shooter, I’ll ask the opponent what did he see. In this case, he fouls on every other shot within a diamond length. I shrugged it off and asked him to watch his stick movement.

The last straws broke when he tried to play a weird combo. His follow through veered to the right and moved a couple of balls. I asked him if he felt the balls move, and retorted that he never touched any balls.

I again cautioned him on controlling his cue stick, and his BHE was causing unnecessary fouls. He loudly said that this was his style, and that he wasn’t going to change. I told him that it’s call whether to call a foul as agreed, and all I could do is make him aware, and call the subsequent fouls.

To prove my point, I replayed Dr Dave’s video on double hits. He stopped being belligerent and was very quiet. I didn’t tell him how to shoot, just that his actions carried real consequences.

If you were in a match with this type of player, would you take the same path as I did, or would you walk away? I stuck it out, and played through the shark. And I shot quite well after getting out of a stress jacket.

How is BHE causing double hits, is he swiping the cue ball? I use BHE all the time and I don't suffer any double hits, BHE is really no different than parallel english as far as the stroke is concerned.

 

[dquarasr]

Back Hand English causing fouls? Are you sure you have your terms right?

I understand BHE to be application of side spin by lining up a shot center ball then, without moving the bridge hand, pivoting the cue moving the back hand a little left or right which addresses the CB for right or left spin, respectively.

I can’t imagine hitting the CB more than once using BHE unless the CB and OB are close to each other.

Do you mean that his stroke goes so sideways that he hits the CB more than once? You mention that a follow through went way far right and moved other balls.

Many rule sets are CB fouls only and moving other balls is not a foul. The opponent gets to determine where the misplaced balls are repositioned.

A push foul is when the CB is struck twice because the CB is close to the OB and the cue tip hits the CB, the CB hits the OB, then the cue tip hits the CB again. See your rule set for whether an OB frozen to (touching) an OB is considered a foul. Some rule sets don’t.

Dr. Dave’s video is very good on push fouls.

 

[Xdecemberguy]

Sounds like he's not controlling his cue after the shot or watching where its going after the shot. Probably to busy looking at the cue ball and not noticing he's glazing other balls with his shaft on his stroke.

 

[straightline]

Back Hand English causing fouls? Are you sure you have your terms right?

I understand BHE to be application of side spin by lining up a shot center ball then, without moving the bridge hand, pivoting the cue moving the back hand a little left or right which addresses the CB for right or left spin, respectively.

I can’t imagine hitting the CB more than once using BHE unless the CB and OB are close to each other.

Do you mean that his stroke goes so sideways that he hits the CB more than once? You mention that a follow through went way far right and moved other balls.

Many rule sets are CB fouls only and moving other balls is not a foul. The opponent gets to determine where the misplaced balls are repositioned.

A push foul is when the CB is struck twice because the CB is close to the OB and the cue tip hits the CB, the CB hits the OB, then the cue tip hits the CB again. See your rule set for whether an OB frozen to (touching) an OB is considered a foul. Some rule sets don’t.

Dr. Dave’s video is very good on push fouls.

Probably means an arcing real time BHE. Which might can be grammatically included.

The way - I wanna say, "it's supposed to be done" but who knows. The way I do it is simply pivot to the desired stick angle and stroke that linearly.

 

[bbb]

Take a video of him playing and show him the double hit or push
Ideally show him the video before the match……
Then tell him you will be calling a foul
If he is a friend, show him the video at a time when there is no match at stake

 

[Patrick Johnson]

BHE is really no different than parallel english as far as the stroke is concerned.

What's "parallel" english? Parallel to what?

All properly-applied english uses a straight stroke - no swiping!

pj
chgo

 

[fastone371]

What's "parallel" english? Parallel to what?

All properly-applied english uses a straight stroke - no swiping!

pj
chgo

Parallel to the shot line, surely you know, even noobs know this.

Yeah, I think i am fully aware that a straight stroke is better than a swipe, thanks for insight professor.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What's "parallel" english? Parallel to what?

Parallel to the shot line, surely you know, even noobs know this.

English is almost never applied with the cue parallel to the shot line - except for the rare case where swerve exactly cancels squirt at that exact distance & speed (i.e., almost never).

Even many noobs know this.

pj
chgo

 

[fastone371]

English is almost never applied with the cue parallel to the shot line - except for the rare case where swerve exactly cancels squirt at that exact distance & speed (i.e., almost never).

Even many noobs know this.

pj
chgo

I believe parallel english was pretty common before BHE and FHE became a thing notv all that long ago.

Here is where Dr. Dave explains parallel english so that now you too can understand. https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/sidespin/parallel-english/

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Here is where Dr. Dave explains parallel english so that now you too can understand. https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/sidespin/parallel-english/

Yes, and he gets it right:

parallel english: aiming technique when using sidespin where the cue is placed parallel to the line of aim for a center-ball hit (with no sidespin) resulting in no compensation for CB deflection (e.g., for shots where swerve is expected to cancel the effects of squirt and throw, resulting in no net CB deflection, or where the amount of resulting pocket cheat is acceptable).

Funny, the underlined part is exactly what I said. Maybe read it over until you understand it…?

pj
chgo

 

[Kjackxon]

How is BHE causing double hits, is he swiping the cue ball? I use BHE all the time and I don't suffer any double hits, BHE is really no different than parallel english as far as the stroke is concerned.

Yes - His cue stick literally swiped the cue ball. He called it BHE motion. The cue was clearly striking it a second time. I asked if he wanted some advice on some of his misses. I’d rather not get into his game, so I said that I’d call it next time. Fair warning?

 

[Kjackxon]

How is BHE causing double hits, is he swiping the cue ball? I use BHE all the time and I don't suffer any double hits, BHE is really no different than parallel english as far as the stroke is concerned.

Not if you’re wiping the cue ball on your follow through.

 

[Kjackxon]

You handled it like gentleman. What was his reaction?

Self denial then remorse after watching Dr Dave’ explanation.

 

[Kjackxon]

Probably means an arcing real time BHE. Which might can be grammatically included.

The way - I wanna say, "it's supposed to be done" but who knows. The way I do it is simply pivot to the desired stick angle and stroke that linearly.

He pivots during the follow through. The tip catches up and strikes the cue ball a second time. It’s more of a double thud. He recoiled so quickly once that I had to double take and say something like”why are those other balls moving sideways?
Heck I don’t know.

 

[Kjackxon]

Back Hand English causing fouls? Are you sure you have your terms right?

I understand BHE to be application of side spin by lining up a shot center ball then, without moving the bridge hand, pivoting the cue moving the back hand a little left or right which addresses the CB for right or left spin, respectively.

I can’t imagine hitting the CB more than once using BHE unless the CB and OB are close to each other.

Do you mean that his stroke goes so sideways that he hits the CB more than once? You mention that a follow through went way far right and moved other balls.

Many rule sets are CB fouls only and moving other balls is not a foul. The opponent gets to determine where the misplaced balls are repositioned.

A push foul is when the CB is struck twice because the CB is close to the OB and the cue tip hits the CB, the CB hits the OB, then the cue tip hits the CB again. See your rule set for whether an OB frozen to (touching) an OB is considered a foul. Some rule sets don’t.

Dr. Dave’s video is very good on push fouls.

Yes and all that - Brutal “must watch” and definitely not incidental contact.

 

[straightline]

He pivots during the follow through. The tip catches up and strikes the cue ball a second time. It’s more of a double thud. He recoiled so quickly once that I had to double take and say something like”why are those other balls moving sideways?
Heck I don’t know.

Back when I was the resident woopin' boy, guy used to put 4 on me like that. Couple pokes at centerish ball and then wham, the english. lol...

 

[Kjackxon]

What's "parallel" english? Parallel to what?

All properly-applied english uses a straight stroke - no swiping!

pj
chgo

You’re on point. I’ll fix my tip on one point, and shift it to suit what I’m trying to do. I like to use terms like “thick and thin” but I can also hit a ball straight with parallel shift.