Thought patterns ...

[Mensabum]

There are no such things as easy shots, and no such things as hard shots, it's just the next shot, you don't think, turning on the bathroom light will be hard this time do you? No, you've done it thousands of times, the difference is you don't allow your conscious brain to interfere with thoughts like make sure you use enough pressure, don't let your finger slip, ect., in fact you don't think about it all, your conscious brain allows your subconscious brain to do what it knows how to do, that's why I say do all your thinking standing up, once you get down to shoot only concentrate on stroking the cueball in a straight line.

Excellent analogy!!!

 

[Mensabum]

The unconscious mind is what we want running the show when we are shooting. All of the almost miraculous reflex actions we have performed in our lives were guided by the unconscious which I have read various numbers for but that includes a thousand times more powerful than the conscious mind that is verbally talking to you. I don't think there is a real number known but it is worth remembering the unconscious is far more powerful than the conscious. No reason to have the conscious in the way. I have learned it is idling in a corner somewhere and will step in if it needs to like when you miss shape a little.

Precision comes from the same place that the "impossibly fast" reactions come from. The verbal conscious mind can get between the unconscious and the body and make a mess of things. My brother was driving my truck when we came to a fork in the road from the other direction. A driver didn't realize they didn't have the right of way forking left. Closing speed of well over a hundred miles an hour, my brother split the gap with no visible daylight between any of the three vehicles, not a scratch on my truck!

Of course you have to have the space to do this but it is also the unconscious at work. Not the conscious, or the subconscious, they are three different things. Once I could define them clearly but it has been a long time since I studied such things and I settle for general concepts these days.

Those who have already said we can train the conscious to shut up are absolutely right, required work for me and I suspect most of us. One thing that helps is a key. In pool the obvious key is bending over. The old adage, think standing, act only once bending over, is true.

Something that took me even longer was to think standing before my first shot of an inning then only stop and think again if something went wrong. Otherwise the entire inning should be one continuous motion, mentally if not physically. Got to be careful though, I had two people quit me midset within a week or two of each other when I started what I had named stalking the table many years before. I wasn't graceful enough to call it gliding around the table!(grin)

Hu

This is the door that leads to accessing flow states or the zone. Once you can do what's recommended in the aforementioned comments by Hu and SSP, you can learn how to access flow on demand.
I'm sure there are many others who know this stuff, but I haven't read thru all the comments yet. Had to toss this on the pile B4 I forgot.

 

[Mensabum]

Good stuff! I have been really trying to quiet my brain. It's starting to happen but there is a point at which no thinking is actually relenting too much control. Or is it?

Perhaps it's because I haven't yet done enough reps. For instance, I just got done with a short session. I was all over the place, missing shots. WTF? I realized that in trying to "not think about it", I was skipping a very major step in my shot execution: visualizing the ghost ball. Maybe I need to do more reps where this becomes automatic. But as soon as I got down on the shot focused on the ghost ball, all the shots (literally, all the shots) went. It's a fine line between thinking while planning, carrying that thinking into getting down on the shot, then turning off the thoughts. I think I will experiment with identifying a trigger, like, be hyper-focused on planning and visualizing the shot while standing, but the instant I place my front foot is the trigger for abandoning thought and trusting the process. I dunno. I'll see how that goes.

Last night I lost two 9-ball racks, one dogging the 9 and leaving it in the jaws of the pocket because I didn't deliver the cue ball to the ghost ball, the other dogging a really simple 7-ball (having run from the 2) that I should make in my sleep, a 15-degree shot just off the rail with shape on the 9 guaranteed - just make the 7. Same problem: didn't really commit to the ghost ball.

I have been proving to myself that the subconscious (or is it the unconscious?) controls things better than the conscious. Here's something you can try: I bet you take a shower daily, and have done so for years the same way. Next time, don't let it just happen. Think about how you get wet, then how you pick up the soap, then which body part you wash first, then which body part you wash next. I bet at some point you will hesitate trying to figure out what to do next. It's really revealing.

Another example: I taught myself how to shift a manual transmission, and heel-toe downshift decades ago. Next time you are driving a manual transmission, force yourself to think about the steps: determine the RPM at which to shift; push in the clutch while releasing the throttle; change gears; reengage the clutch and return to the throttle. I bet you're not nearly as smooth as when you aren't thinking about it. It's even more pronounced when executing a heel-toe downshift. The more you think about it the less smooth it becomes.

Learning to turn off the brain for pool is f-ing hard!!

Regarding the bolded sentences, yeah, if only I can be so good to have someone quit on me because I was stalking the table so efficiently that I was shooting too well!!! LOL

In my case I'm stubborn as well as an idiot. Best of both worlds. I struggled with this for years!!!
Don't rush yourself. No hurry, no worry.

 

[Mensabum]

Just to confirm... We are still talking about pool here?

Hu

Hokey Pokey.

 

[dquarasr]

Hokey Pokey.

 

[SSP]

Excellent analogy!!!

That is from the book the inner game of tennis, it's not exact word for word but it does explain how the brain works, it's a great read, it has helped me immensely.

 

[SSP]

Good stuff! I have been really trying to quiet my brain. It's starting to happen but there is a point at which no thinking is actually relenting too much control. Or is it?

Perhaps it's because I haven't yet done enough reps. For instance, I just got done with a short session. I was all over the place, missing shots. WTF? I realized that in trying to "not think about it", I was skipping a very major step in my shot execution: visualizing the ghost ball. Maybe I need to do more reps where this becomes automatic. But as soon as I got down on the shot focused on the ghost ball, all the shots (literally, all the shots) went. It's a fine line between thinking while planning, carrying that thinking into getting down on the shot, then turning off the thoughts. I think I will experiment with identifying a trigger, like, be hyper-focused on planning and visualizing the shot while standing, but the instant I place my front foot is the trigger for abandoning thought and trusting the process. I dunno. I'll see how that goes.

Last night I lost two 9-ball racks, one dogging the 9 and leaving it in the jaws of the pocket because I didn't deliver the cue ball to the ghost ball, the other dogging a really simple 7-ball (having run from the 2) that I should make in my sleep, a 15-degree shot just off the rail with shape on the 9 guaranteed - just make the 7. Same problem: didn't really commit to the ghost ball.

I have been proving to myself that the subconscious (or is it the unconscious?) controls things better than the conscious. Here's something you can try: I bet you take a shower daily, and have done so for years the same way. Next time, don't let it just happen. Think about how you get wet, then how you pick up the soap, then which body part you wash first, then which body part you wash next. I bet at some point you will hesitate trying to figure out what to do next. It's really revealing.

Another example: I taught myself how to shift a manual transmission, and heel-toe downshift decades ago. Next time you are driving a manual transmission, force yourself to think about the steps: determine the RPM at which to shift; push in the clutch while releasing the throttle; change gears; reengage the clutch and return to the throttle. I bet you're not nearly as smooth as when you aren't thinking about it. It's even more pronounced when executing a heel-toe downshift. The more you think about it the less smooth it becomes.

Learning to turn off the brain for pool is f-ing hard!!

Regarding the bolded sentences, yeah, if only I can be so good to have someone quit on me because I was stalking the table so efficiently that I was shooting too well!!! LOL

there is a point at which no thinking is actually relenting too much control. Or is it? That is the conscious brain trying to run the show again, he is relentless and used to being in control, once you are down on the shot don't THINK about a straight stroke Concentrate on nothing but a straight stroke, there is nothing to think about, you feel whether the stroke was straight or not the more that happens the easier it becomes

 

[Mensabum]

That is from the book the inner game of tennis, it's not exact word for word but it does explain how the brain works, it's a great read, it has helped me immensely.

I should prolly get around to reading that one of these days.
Better late than never, I guess.

 

[Mensabum]

there is a point at which no thinking is actually relenting too much control. Or is it? That is the conscious brain trying to run the show again, he is relentless and used to being in control, once you are down on the shot don't THINK about a straight stroke Concentrate on nothing but a straight stroke, there is nothing to think about, you feel whether the stroke was straight or not the more that happens the easier it becomes

I believe you must have a certain level of playing ability in order for any of this to sink in or be able to apply.
For those of you struggling with the concepts, you're overthinking things. Just relax and let this come to you. Play hard and have patience.
It cannot be forced. Square peg, round hole.

 

[Mensabum]

Gotta luv Larry!!

 

[SSP]

I should prolly get around to reading that one of these days.
Better late than never, I guess.

It's not a long book and most of what you need is in about 150 pages

 

[boogieman]

So, my questions, in particular directed to the more highly accomplished AZBers here:
1a. From the time you get down on your shot and perform pre-strokes, until you address the cue ball the final time, what do YOU think about?
1b. Same question, but what would you recommend *I* (or any player to whom you are giving advice) think about?

2a. When you at final cue ball address, and you are starting your backstroke, then through your forward stroke, what do YOU think about?
2b. What would you recommend *I* think about?

I'm not highly accomplished, but:

1a. Seeing/feeling that I am hitting the target exactly where I want to (and had already decided before addressing the shot) aka mind already made up and just executing the shot I decided, be it correct, incorrect, or unknown (carefully observe what happens). AKA does it look/feel correct. When it does I simply shoot.
1b. Less thinking, simply does it look correct or not? If the answer is not then get back up and try again until it looks right. This method, like anything else takes practice. You might have to diagnose how you see shots at the practice table. Keep your head on a level plane and it is easier to avoid optical illusions.

2a. Ideally, nothing. Just awaiting the sweet feel and sound of the hit. At this point, thinking for me is self sabotage. Best to not think, just focus on your other senses, like sight, sound, feel. If I think about anything it's "sweet hit."
2b. Nothing. Focus on your senses and not your thoughts. Easier said than done, might take practice. Just feel and anticipate the feel and sound of a sweetly hit ball. The rest will take care of itself. If the rest doesn't take care of itself, remember or make a quick note of that shot and spend some time working on it during practice.

I have tried that. Doesn’t work. My mind is ALWAYS active. I can’t turn it off. I am hoping to redirect it instead.

Thanks for responding.

Me too. Focusing and thinking are different things. I find if I focus on the feel/sound my "thinking" isn't so forward in my mind. I have ADD so the tricks I have to do to keep focus may not work for everyone. Alan Watts had some line about constant thinking to the point of it being chatter in the skull is not useful. Maybe focus on your breathing.

Basically if I don't FOCUS on something, my brain is chattering away, and sometimes in life's endeavors that's helpful but sometimes it self sabotages.

I highly recommend adding something to your PSR while up and deciding. Like decide what to do, then say to yourself, is this correct? If you answer yes, just think "yes, correct" and then just focus on feel. Don't address the ball/get into stance until you say "yes, correct." The thinking is done and you confirmed it was correct. Don't be afraid to walk around the table for a different look or just to burn off some energy if you get to thinking. It's annoying but if your brain learns that thinking only gets it a trip around the table, eventually it will decide it's easier to shut up while you focus on feel/sound of a good hit.

 

[lfigueroa]

I think your PSR has to be burnt in so it's not something you're thinking about as you get into shooting position.

As to what's going on in my brain, as I'm shooting I giving myself small coaching cues like: use more spin than draw off the rail on this one; it's impossible to hit this shot too hard; level out your cue a bit; favor this side of the OB for position; hit this a touch higher on the CB; punch this one; and small stuff like that.

BTW, not everyone has an "inner voice" or the same level of interaction with an inner voice.

Not Everyone Has an Inner Voice Streaming through Their Head

The extent to which people experience “inner speech” varies greatly, and the differences matter for performing certain cognitive tasks

www.scientificamerican.com

Lou Figueroa
inner voice talks too much
(who you talkin' about?)

 

[HawaiianEye]

Somewhere in your pre-shot thought process, "deja vu" needs to come to mind.

If you can't recall several times of SUCCESSFULLY accomplishing what you are attempting to do, maybe you need to try something else. Especially if you are in a meaningful match.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think your PSR has to be burnt in so it's not something you're thinking about as you get into shooting position.

An old trick is to make putting the chalk down the "trigger" for going from planning to execution mode.

Chalk up = think/plan/mentally rehearse
Chalk down = STFU/execute

Maybe a "STFU Jar" to pay into when you fail.

pj
chgo

 

[Mensabum]

I think your PSR has to be burnt in so it's not something you're thinking about as you get into shooting position.

As to what's going on in my brain, as I'm shooting I giving myself small coaching cues like: use more spin than draw off the rail on this one; it's impossible to hit this shot too hard; level out your cue a bit; favor this side of the OB for position; hit this a touch higher on the CB; punch this one; and small stuff like that.

BTW, not everyone has an "inner voice" or the same level of interaction with an inner voice.

Not Everyone Has an Inner Voice Streaming through Their Head

The extent to which people experience “inner speech” varies greatly, and the differences matter for performing certain cognitive tasks

www.scientificamerican.com

Lou Figueroa
inner voice talks too much
(who you talkin' about?)

Idk if this helps, but the only thinking I do when I approach the table is to observe the lay of the balls and decide on how to run them. Then I drop and fire. The only time this process gets interrupted is if I blow shape or some other bizzare thing happens to change the initial plan.
I'm not thinking about it while shooting. I let my 'experience' move the cue, for want of a better word.
All that being said, that type of hyper focus becomes more difficult as time passes. No problem when younger.
Now I get headaches.
Makes it harder to stay in flow. Take what you can use and leave the rest.

 

[SSP]

I'm not highly accomplished, but:

1a. Seeing/feeling that I am hitting the target exactly where I want to (and had already decided before addressing the shot) aka mind already made up and just executing the shot I decided, be it correct, incorrect, or unknown (carefully observe what happens). AKA does it look/feel correct. When it does I simply shoot.
1b. Less thinking, simply does it look correct or not? If the answer is not then get back up and try again until it looks right. This method, like anything else takes practice. You might have to diagnose how you see shots at the practice table. Keep your head on a level plane and it is easier to avoid optical illusions.

2a. Ideally, nothing. Just awaiting the sweet feel and sound of the hit. At this point, thinking for me is self sabotage. Best to not think, just focus on your other senses, like sight, sound, feel. If I think about anything it's "sweet hit."
2b. Nothing. Focus on your senses and not your thoughts. Easier said than done, might take practice. Just feel and anticipate the feel and sound of a sweetly hit ball. The rest will take care of itself. If the rest doesn't take care of itself, remember or make a quick note of that shot and spend some time working on it during practice.


Me too. Focusing and thinking are different things. I find if I focus on the feel/sound my "thinking" isn't so forward in my mind. I have ADD so the tricks I have to do to keep focus may not work for everyone. Alan Watts had some line about constant thinking to the point of it being chatter in the skull is not useful. Maybe focus on your breathing.

Basically if I don't FOCUS on something, my brain is chattering away, and sometimes in life's endeavors that's helpful but sometimes it self sabotages.

I highly recommend adding something to your PSR while up and deciding. Like decide what to do, then say to yourself, is this correct? If you answer yes, just think "yes, correct" and then just focus on feel. Don't address the ball/get into stance until you say "yes, correct." The thinking is done and you confirmed it was correct. Don't be afraid to walk around the table for a different look or just to burn off some energy if you get to thinking. It's annoying but if your brain learns that thinking only gets it a trip around the table, eventually it will decide it's easier to shut up while you focus on feel/sound of a good hit.

This topic has made me think about some other causes that I have never considered, we have been talking about the conscious brain wanting to make the decisions, what about times it relies on the subconscious part of the brain like when driving a car at 70 mph in heavy traffic? You don't think about, braking, steering to change lanes, how much pressure to put on the accelerator, and many other things, through your learned experience your conscious brain allows the subconscious brain to do all those things without interference, your conscious brain is concentrating on and predicting what moves to make up ahead and expects the subconscious brain to do what it knows how to do, so why doesn't it happen when you play pool? You don't have to make all those snap decisions, the conscious brain believes it can control this because it's slower and risk of losing your life is non existent, it's right in one case, loss of life is probably not going to happen, but it's not slower, that is where the problem lies, it's actually way faster, you can the exact figures from Dr. Dave but the tip of the cue stays on the cueball for about 1/100,000 of 1 second, your whole shot relies on you having your cue in the PERFECT spot when you make contact with your tip AND it has to be on the near perfect line for you to pocket the object ball, and that will depend on how far the object ball is from the pocket and how far you are off from hitting the target on the cueball, rattling the object ball means you were close, I don't believe you can trick the conscious brain into believing there is danger in not stroking the ball correctly, maybe if you allowed some to punch you in the face hard every time you missed, probably not what I would try, the best thing is to learn to allow your subconscious brain to take over when stroking the cueball, is there one way that works for everyone? Nope, I wish there was a magic bullet, too many brains wired too many ways, but at least you can work on it and find what works for you, I am studying how the brain learns things, will add more when I can, I thank everyone who contributes to this thread, I'm learning too, I want to be the best pool player I can be.

 

[nine_ball6970]

All I know is I can't make a ball when I am TRYING to make a ball.

 

[straightline]

BTW, not everyone has an "inner voice" or the same level of interaction with an inner voice.

Not Everyone Has an Inner Voice Streaming through Their Head

The extent to which people experience “inner speech” varies greatly, and the differences matter for performing certain cognitive tasks

www.scientificamerican.com

Lou Figueroa
inner voice talks too much
(who you talkin' about?)

Not everyone has one that knows what it's talking about either. I'm guessing normal would be language based - native tongue(s) etc. I think in English and probably adhere to grammatical logic as well.

 

[Mensabum]

This topic has made me think about some other causes that I have never considered, we have been talking about the conscious brain wanting to make the decisions, what about times it relies on the subconscious part of the brain like when driving a car at 70 mph in heavy traffic? You don't think about, braking, steering to change lanes, how much pressure to put on the accelerator, and many other things, through your learned experience your conscious brain allows the subconscious brain to do all those things without interference, your conscious brain is concentrating on and predicting what moves to make up ahead and expects the subconscious brain to do what it knows how to do, so why doesn't it happen when you play pool? You don't have to make all those snap decisions, the conscious brain believes it can control this because it's slower and risk of losing your life is non existent, it's right in one case, loss of life is probably not going to happen, but it's not slower, that is where the problem lies, it's actually way faster, you can the exact figures from Dr. Dave but the tip of the cue stays on the cueball for about 1/100,000 of 1 second, your whole shot relies on you having your cue in the PERFECT spot when you make contact with your tip AND it has to be on the near perfect line for you to pocket the object ball, and that will depend on how far the object ball is from the pocket and how far you are off from hitting the target on the cueball, rattling the object ball means you were close, I don't believe you can trick the conscious brain into believing there is danger in not stroking the ball correctly, maybe if you allowed some to punch you in the face hard every time you missed, probably not what I would try, the best thing is to learn to allow your subconscious brain to take over when stroking the cueball, is there one way that works for everyone? Nope, I wish there was a magic bullet, too many brains wired too many ways, but at least you can work on it and find what works for you, I am studying how the brain learns things, will add more when I can, I thank everyone who contributes to this thread, I'm learning too, I want to be the best pool player I can be.

You most definitely can if playing for large coin!!
Lose and you're walking home to an empty house.
Increase the element of risk involved.
You'll figure it out real quick!!