Refinish effect on cue value.
- Thread starter RobH
- Start date
Thank you!
I was so stuck I couldn't think of it! I could have Googled it but was doing 3 things at once.
I see great answers I wish were true. I have been dealing for a long time and one of my pet peeves is that 50% should happen. But it does not. That is the truth. I have seen fully restored Balabushka's, with two brand new shafts, not by George, get sold for more than an all original with two 12.5mm shafts. People who say this doesn't happen are FOS, and are dead out lying. It is an absolute rarity if this ever happened. It's my opinion that this one factor is what keeps real money and non-pool people out of cues. If you had a 62 Stratocaster and bought it to a show, and it had new pickups and a fresh paint job, and a new neck from Stew-Mac, and you asked 30K for it, you would be laughed out of the building.
The issue now is you cannot un-ring the bell, put the monster back in the box, etc... go ahead and tell someone who bought a refinished Szamboti for 15K, that his/her cue is now worth 7500.00 because the industry needs to fix this issue. The issue is very obvious, bright and shiny has always had more appeal than something old and ratty, at least to pool players.
Example. I sold a super rare wrapless Bushka titlist that had a the original finish just polished by Pete, I refused to let him refinish it. I sold it with the original shafts, and a great polish. The cue resurfaced and had a fresh refinish. I was told the points popped. Absolute and unfettered bullshit. The points didn't pop for 50 years and now you say the points popped in less than 2 years? Bright and shiny principle applies. This cue, I sold I believe for 6500-7500 give or take... IMHO right now it is a 3k cue, but I guarantee you it will sell for max value the next time it moves.
JV
The issue now is you cannot un-ring the bell, put the monster back in the box, etc... go ahead and tell someone who bought a refinished Szamboti for 15K, that his/her cue is now worth 7500.00 because the industry needs to fix this issue. The issue is very obvious, bright and shiny has always had more appeal than something old and ratty, at least to pool players.
Example. I sold a super rare wrapless Bushka titlist that had a the original finish just polished by Pete, I refused to let him refinish it. I sold it with the original shafts, and a great polish. The cue resurfaced and had a fresh refinish. I was told the points popped. Absolute and unfettered bullshit. The points didn't pop for 50 years and now you say the points popped in less than 2 years? Bright and shiny principle applies. This cue, I sold I believe for 6500-7500 give or take... IMHO right now it is a 3k cue, but I guarantee you it will sell for max value the next time it moves.
JV
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Also, the shafts don’t to appear to have been made at the same time, possibly not by the same cue maker. The ferrules are different and the grain on the shafts is different. I’d look at the inserts which are often a telltale.
Nice looking cue. Did it need to be refinished?
There is no "fix" for the issue. I don't even think it is a real issue. It just is what it is.
People will pay what they will pay, and that will determine the value, which was my conclusion.
Trying to make generalities makes for an interesting discussion because there are so many combinations of possibilities.
My own rules of thumb are to repair when necessary, restore minimally, keep as original as possible.
Once someone has a cue, they own it, and they will do what they want with it. I may not like it, you may not like it, and it might even piss us off, but it is what it is.
Let's not pretend the same does not happen in other collectable markets. It does. As for the guitar example, some classics have been modified and refinished. They have the wrong pickups, bridge, pickups in backwards, rewired, wrong tuners, refinished, frets done "wrong", neck sanded... etc. But if it was done by a specific artist or he had it done and/or a specific track or album was recorded on it or it was used on a certain tour the value can be astronomical. Imagine finding such a thing in a pawn shop and getting it cheap, not knowing what it was, and having it "restored" to original specs...then finding out what it was. You could have spent many hours and serious money tracking down some original parts thinking your were getting ahead, only to find out you destroyed a historic piece. Is this too much of a stretch? Surely it would be a rare circumstance but such things have happened.
Personally I wish I had my very pristine original 1966 Fender Mustang back, but I haven't seen it since about 1985 or 1986. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out it is butchered up today.
I look at it this way: For every original example that falls to refinishing, abuse, hack repair, or otherwise, it boosts the value of remaining original examples.
The issue frustrates me too occasionally, then I get back to thinking it's not an issue. That can be hard when it is a cue you like, owned or would have liked to own.
I did buy a refinished cue with two original shafts. It's about 55 years old. It was nearly impossible to find. Do I like the automotive finish? No. I don't even think it was done very well. And they glued a bumper on a bumperless cue! Did the seller think it was great? Yes. I paid more than I wanted to, many would say more than I should have, but I wanted that cue. It was either step up or let it go and maybe never see one again. So, I bought it and I am happy to own it.
I disagree and as far as your guitar example. If SRV modified HIS guitar, or a guitar he played, that is very different than Joe Shmoe restoring a Strat. To use your example if the Mosconi Bushka was refinished it SHOULD reduce the value by half. That is my opinion, and it is defies common sense in any similar market that a restored or modified example increases the value, or even holds value. The only exception would be a catastrophic failure if the repair was not addressed.
The OP is addressing values and restoration. The Bluebooks, when they meant something, should have pounded this point like a 5 dollar hooker. The reason that this train of thought works is it actually helps the market. If I had a closet queen Szamboti, 4 point, 4 veneer.. etc.. lets assume a true value of 13k. You are a collector and you buy this cue, you have bought one of maybe 20 cues that could honestly make this claim. You now know you paid for something special and there is a pride of ownership. So now I am a beginner player, or collector, and that same cue in refinished condition, no original shafts, should be $5k maybe. It allows me to get into the collecting arena at a price point that is actually reflective of a true value in comparison to all original. But the reality is this cue does exist on someone's website for the same price as all original.
Chop, I am sorry this is one thing that is hard and fast and it is pretty much the standard in every hobby market. A dipped or cleaned coin is a fraction, of the value of an MS. A restored comic is worth less than the all original counterpart. The list is endless.
To go back to a guitar, SRV's number one is considered priceless, if someone took that and restored it, do you honestly think that would or should increase the value?
I'll be honest, I wish I truly understood this 30 years ago. Because I with my contemporaries, were (are) part of the problem.
JV
The OP is addressing values and restoration. The Bluebooks, when they meant something, should have pounded this point like a 5 dollar hooker. The reason that this train of thought works is it actually helps the market. If I had a closet queen Szamboti, 4 point, 4 veneer.. etc.. lets assume a true value of 13k. You are a collector and you buy this cue, you have bought one of maybe 20 cues that could honestly make this claim. You now know you paid for something special and there is a pride of ownership. So now I am a beginner player, or collector, and that same cue in refinished condition, no original shafts, should be $5k maybe. It allows me to get into the collecting arena at a price point that is actually reflective of a true value in comparison to all original. But the reality is this cue does exist on someone's website for the same price as all original.
Chop, I am sorry this is one thing that is hard and fast and it is pretty much the standard in every hobby market. A dipped or cleaned coin is a fraction, of the value of an MS. A restored comic is worth less than the all original counterpart. The list is endless.
To go back to a guitar, SRV's number one is considered priceless, if someone took that and restored it, do you honestly think that would or should increase the value?
I'll be honest, I wish I truly understood this 30 years ago. Because I with my contemporaries, were (are) part of the problem.
JV
The guy had him cut the shaft down and put an ld ferrule on it. My opinion. Was that had he left the shafts and not removed the logo it was a 1500-1700 dollar cue. I’m selling it for 900 to a friend that knows what he’s getting.
I offered to buy the cue before the work was done. I would have sent it to proficient but left the shafts alone.
On highly collectible cues I would agree. On something like this a standard refinish wouldn’t have mattered that much. It’s the alterations that killed this cue.
Refinished Runde Schons bring similar money to closet queens from what I’ve seen.
Upon closer inspection, I see that the left shaft appears to be shorter than the shaft on the right.
Still, none of the 7 cues I’ve owned had two shafts that did not look like they came from the same lot of wood. Maybe it’s just the pictures.
$900 seems like a good price. As long as your friend knows the story, he should be happy. I’m not so sure how much collector value there is for an all-original Belle Sera.
There is absolutely a line but I think it would even be lower than Schons. There are Schon collectors that would argue that an all original Schon should have a higher value. The Bella Sera example if 99% true. If I was a true collector with my principles, I would not buy that cue for my collection if those questions were true or questionable. But someone who wanted an example of a Bella Sera and didn't care about those issues, would be happy to home that cue.
The cue in the pics is an all original Bela Sera titlist.
JV
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The guy that’s buying it has one with propellers in the butt. I tried to trade
It solely depends on who your selling it to. If your selling to someone familiar with Bella Sera it wont matter much. If its on the open market and someone really likes it you'll get what you asking, especially if your trying to trade it.
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He doesn’t want it to get away. I’m also giving him a fair price. He has another Bella Sera and a Lambros that I’d really like to get my hands on but he wouldn’t trade.
I’m selling it to a guy that has wanted it for a while. He knows that now that I have it it will get gone pretty fast because I sell/trade a lot.
He doesn’t want it to get away. I’m also giving him a fair price. He has another Bella Sera and a Lambros that I’d really like to get my hands on but he wouldn’t trade.
Will a cue refinish or shaft taper change affect cue value- that is the question. My answer- it totally depends on the interested buyer(s). Every buyer will have unique priorities.
Personally, I prefer a QUALITY refinish on any cue that has a dulled out finish, or markings on the finish that are clearly visible - however, from a historical perspective, an older Brunswick, Rambow, GB,GS, etc. that has a reasonably intact finish would certainly be preferred as original.
I am not such a purest that I would not offer on a cue with a quality refinish- no matter the original pedigree, if I truly desired that cue and I would personally not discount on a cue with a true quality refinish- that is just my own taste.
Shafts that are re- tapered to a longer pro taper are actually my preference - my only hesitation is on shafts less than 12.25 on the first six inches from the tip.
Personally, I prefer a QUALITY refinish on any cue that has a dulled out finish, or markings on the finish that are clearly visible - however, from a historical perspective, an older Brunswick, Rambow, GB,GS, etc. that has a reasonably intact finish would certainly be preferred as original.
I am not such a purest that I would not offer on a cue with a quality refinish- no matter the original pedigree, if I truly desired that cue and I would personally not discount on a cue with a true quality refinish- that is just my own taste.
Shafts that are re- tapered to a longer pro taper are actually my preference - my only hesitation is on shafts less than 12.25 on the first six inches from the tip.
There is a site called the wayback machine or something similar. I have used it in the past to find now defunct sites. I'll look it up and post a link later.
I know it well. Generally it's stripped of images, which is the stuff I want in the case of cues.
I've already had my Gilbert playing cue refinished by Andy within the first year of delivery due to bubbles that popped up under the ring work. Since the cue had a bunch of scrimmed ivory, it couldn't really be shaved down, and the black embossed gator wrap also had to be replaced. Andy mentioned that this was also a learning experience for how he did his finishes. 20 years later, the cue still looks almost new since I baby it so much.
I mostly trade in older Schons and the collectors want 12.7 or larger diameter shafts.
I’ve actually got some hoarded away for when I find cues with crap shafts.
For me 12.5 is fine and I agree about a quality refinish not being a deal breaker. I buy cues to play with them and I’m always looking for a better hit no matter how good what I have is.
But the people that want safe queens are looking for art over performance a lot of the time.
There is a site called the wayback machine or something similar. I have used it in the past to find now defunct sites. I'll look it up and post a link later.
Web Server's Default Page
Link does not work, but thanks, I will check it out. Usually I find no images, or at least nothing useful.There is a site called the wayback machine or something similar. I have used it in the past to find now defunct sites. I'll look it up and post a link later.
I entered this in the search box on the waybackmachine site and did come up with some pictures,Web Server's Default Page
bellaseracues.com