St. Louis Louie vs. Archer 1990

There were some very strong players who would have done quite well in tournament play but for whatever reasons they chose not to. And back then there was a subtle dislike by gamblers and road dawgs for tourney players and vice versa.
Perhaps subtle is the wrong word.😂
I knew so many of those players back then that gambled and travel hustling pool on the road and many had real talent but could care less. They reached the level that suited their needs and they weren't putting in 8 hours a day on the table to try and be the world's best or break any records.
 
they kept different hours. to do a 10 am round most gamblers would have to stay up all night.
The tournament's back then were worth so little. Look up the prize money at Johnston City you think those guys were there for the prize money? In fact the US Open straight pool tournament in the seventies had first prize of like $4,000. Meantime in Miami guys like Mike Corella are playing $300. $500. 9 ball.
 
Last edited:
I knew so many of those players back then that gambled and travel hustling pool on the road and many had real talent but could care less. They reached the level that suited their needs and they weren't putting in 8 hours a day on the table to try and be the world's best or break any records.
I would not be so quick to paint with a broad brush. Many of those so-called “hustlers” were some of the hardest-working players you’d ever meet. Just because they didn’t chase trophies or world titles doesn’t mean they lacked discipline or drive. For a lot of them, the road was the proving ground, and the money game demanded just as much precision, strategy, and mental toughness as any tournament…some would argue even more. I’ll guarantee you there were some that played as well as anyone. They weren’t lazy… they just measured success by different stakes. If they were anything but that, they wouldn’t last on the road.
 
Last edited:
The tournament's back then were worth so little. Look up the prize money at Johnston City you think those guys were there for the price money? In fact the US Open straight pool tournament in the seventies had first prize of like $4,000. Meantime in Miami guys like Mike Corella are playing $300. $500. 9 ball.
I remember. back then any tourney that paid 500 or more for 1st would have a bunch of out of Towners coming in to match up the night before and the day after. half of them didn't bother with the tourney.
 
Rule changes as in how the balls are racked which totally benefits the “illusion” of better pattern play, roll out, & and the advent of jump cues IMO make it very difficult to compare past generations. These rule changes changed the game… beyond incredible shot making and getting shape, strategy is not as a huge part of the game of 9 ball anymore.
Strategy is a MUCH bigger part of the game today. There are more two-way shots, more kicks, more jumps, and more need for billiard knowledge than ever before. The lack of tactical skills among the old-timers showed up in spades when Hopkins staged the "Legends of Pool" series in what I believe was 1983. The level of play was still pretty high, just not the defensive and tactical play.

There was much less need to be a great kicker/jumper or safety player back in the day, and position play errors were often forgiven because you could push out.

Even ignoring the fact that today's players play on super-tight equipment and the last generation did not, the game is much more difficult today. Similarly, mediocre position play was not punished as much on loose equipment, but today, recovering a lost pattern is a much tougher challenge than back in the day.

For every super-straight shooter there was in Mike Sigel's prime, there are probably ten of them today. Finally, the pattern play today is much better than it was ten years ago, never mind forty years ago.

The only player of the 1980s who is in the coversation with the defensive greats of today is Nick Varner.

But, as you say, comparison across the generations is near impossible. Still, the quality of play has skyrocketed to a level few could have imagined even ten years ago.
 
Last edited:
they kept different hours. to do a 10 am round most gamblers would have to stay up all night.
It's tough.
they kept different hours. to do a 10 am round most gamblers would have to stay up all night.
Most I knew weren't the type you want to see enter anyway. Bed us down w the horses. We played a different game. New cloth and clean balls all the time?? Wouldn't know how to act.😉
 
I knew so many of those players back then that gambled and travel hustling pool on the road and many had real talent but could care less. They reached the level that suited their needs and they weren't putting in 8 hours a day on the table to try and be the world's best or break any records.
Exactly!!! And that's a shame in some ways bcuz some of those guys could have been contenders without question.
 
I knew so many of those players back then that gambled and travel hustling pool on the road and many had real talent but could care less. They reached the level that suited their needs and they weren't putting in 8 hours a day on the table to try and be the world's best or break any records.
Exactly!!! And that's a shame in some ways bcuz some of those guys could have been contrndersome
The tournament's back then were worth so little. Look up the prize money at Johnston City you think those guys were there for the prize money? In fact the US Open straight pool tournament in the seventies had first prize of like $4,000. Meantime in Miami guys like Mike Corella are playing $300. $500. 9 ball.
One good ring game that night after the tourney and you could make more than the winner did.
 
I would not be so quick to paint with a broad brush. Many of those so-called “hustlers” were some of the hardest-working players you’d ever meet. Just because they didn’t chase trophies or world titles doesn’t mean they lacked discipline or drive. For a lot of them, the road was the proving ground, and the money game demanded just as much precision, strategy, and mental toughness as any tournament…some would argue even more. I’ll guarantee you there were some that played as well as anyone. They weren’t lazy… they just measured success by different stakes. If they were anything but that, they wouldn’t last on the road.
Those guys were the upper crust. There was a whole slew of bums like me who just didn't give a shit. Anti social and living the dream.
 
Strategy is a MUCH bigger part of the game today. There are more two-way shots, more kicks, more jumps, and more need for billiard knowledge than ever before. The lack of tactical skills among the old-timers showed up in spades when Hopkins staged the "Legends of Pool" series in what I believe was 1983. The level of play was still pretty high, just not the defensive and tactical play.

There was much less need to be a great kicker/jumper or safety player back in the day, and position play errors were often forgiven because you could push out.

Even ignoring the fact that today's players play on super-tight equipment and the last generation did not, the game is much more difficult today. Similarly, mediocre position play was not punished as much on loose equipment, but today, recovering a lost pattern is a much tougher challenge than back in the day.

For every super-straight shooter there was in Mike Sigel's prime, there are probably ten of them today. Finally, the pattern play today is much better than it was ten years ago, never mind forty years ago.

The only player of the 1980s who is in the coversation with the defensive greats of today is Nick Varner.

But, as you say, comparison across the generations is near impossible. Still, the quality of play has skyrocketed to a level few could have imagined even ten years ago.
Glad to see it happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbb
Strategy is a MUCH bigger part of the game today. There are more two-way shots, more kicks, more jumps, and more need for billiard knowledge than ever before. The lack of tactical skills among the old-timers showed up in spades when Hopkins staged the "Legends of Pool" series in what I believe was 1983. The level of play was still pretty high, just not the defensive and tactical play.

There was much less need to be a great kicker/jumper or safety player back in the day, and position play errors were often forgiven because you could push out.

Even ignoring the fact that today's players play on super-tight equipment and the last generation did not, the game is much more difficult today. Similarly, mediocre position play was not punished as much on loose equipment, but today, recovering a lost pattern is a much tougher challenge than back in the day.

For every super-straight shooter there was in Mike Sigel's prime, there are probably ten of them today. Finally, the pattern play today is much better than it was ten years ago, never mind forty years ago.

The only player of the 1980s who is in the coversation with the defensive greats of today is Nick Varner.

But, as you say, comparison across the generations is near impossible. Still, the quality of play has skyrocketed to a level few could have imagined even ten years ago.
Yes there are more two-way, kick, & Jump shots… no debate there. But why?

Ball in-in-hand lends itself to more two-way shots. And of course, you see more jumps. Jumpers didn’t exist back then. The need for Billiard knowledge is one thing, having it is another, and being able to show it is yet another. Under the old rules benefits player opportunities to showcase that kind of knowledge if they possessed it

I’m not familiar with “Legends of Pool" series in 1983. but my guess anything named “Legends of pool” indicates players past their prime. That’s not a knock, at some point they earned the title “Legend.” But I wouldn’t use that series as a definitive comparison between eras.

Considering the low percentage of intended outcomes on kicks and jumps, I don’t see more strategy, I see less. I do not see how giving a professional player ball in hand is more difficult than spotting a boll and putting the cue ball in the kitchen. Honestly, giving a pro ball-in-hand is far easier than forcing them to spot a ball and shoot from the kitchen, which demanded more creativity and knowledge. Both of these changes (jump cues& ball in hand) give lesser players a chance to win and definitely lends the game to luck and diminishes that advantage of knowledge. When you rolled out you’d better have some knowledge to include safety play if you want to take advantage of the situation more than just having a way out of bad spot. If all you saw was a way out of trouble you definitely weren’t taking full advantage of situations… it wasn’t just a way out of trouble. That dynamic has been largely lost. Today, more kicks and jumps don’t mean more strategy, they just mean more variance, which again gives less experienced players more chances. Taking in account the low percentage of intended outcomes for kicking and jumping, and also considering that the rule lend more opportunities for two way shots that doesn’t add up to more strategy to me but lends the game again to more luck and more opportunities for lesser players.

If the pros had a say, I’m not convinced jump cues would even exist. Players don’t have the say, industry and promoters do and there’s too much money made with every bar player having a jump cue and lesser players having a chance to win in Bar leagues.

Generally speaking roll-out was an option after the break. Any hustle is an option but that’s how I grew up playing it so I’m not following how it’s forgives position errors?

I’d still argue that pattern-play is as an “illusion” of rules for racking the the balls.

We are definitely going to have to agree to disagree on what adds up to more strategy, luck, and what rules benefit, penalize, or rewards the more knowledgeable player. I don’t think today’s game holds any water compared to yesterday’s game as far as the rules go.

I’d also argue that today players would have no difficulty playing on any of yesterday’s equipment including cloth and I also think yesterday’s players would have adjusted to tighter equipment.

Agreed, for every super-straight shooter there was in Mike Sigel's prime, there are probably ten of them today… shot makers.
Agreed, the equipment is tighter.
Agreed, comparison across the generations is near impossible. Still, the quality of play has skyrocketed to a level few could have imagined even ten years ago. 💯

Respect SJM 🤩
 
Last edited:
Back
Top