And they will shoot some personally biased average of both. With CPG CBL, you can determine the shot alignments first then look at the cueball as you shoot it. The shot dynamics you already know.
Discussion: Focusing on the cue ball compared to other sports
- Thread starter Jesse Cool
- Start date
If you are not perfectly aligned looking only at the Cue ball Last
You do not allow your subconscious to make micro corrections to deliver the cueball to the Target
like you could if you were focusing on the object ball contact point or whatever target last
Jmho
You do not allow your subconscious to make micro corrections to deliver the cueball to the Target
like you could if you were focusing on the object ball contact point or whatever target last
Jmho
Jesse Cool
New member
It’s very hard to make accurate predictions by watching videos. I’ve tried to study this a little and camera lenses do all kinds of funny things that distort perception. Really difficult to tell what they are really looking at.
Would be interesting to pick some of these top pros brains and get intimate details of what they do with their eyes over a number of different shot situations.
Jesse Cool
New member
This means little in the way of dismissing CBL. I look at the OB too if I have no other concerns.
lol I like you but you get so thick sometimes.
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To send an object to a distance with pinpoint accuracy we must focus on the target. in pool I think the target is the object ball. We can accurately strike a cue ball eyes closed if we line up on it eyes open. Not so when golfing or batting, you need pinpoint accuracy for the ball strike but are satisfied with a general area for the ball target. I guess you have to decide which is the target, tip to cue ball contact or object ball cue ball contact. I dunno, it just seems to me that your focus has to be on what is the key part of the activity, in pool for me the key part is the object ball contact, I think there is enough footage of the guys that earn a living at this game to conclude they do the same. For me and golf I am happy to put the ball somewhere green and in front of me.
So in other words even though they are looking OBL it still means they are looking CBL???? That's interesting. I don't think anyone is "dismissing" CBL, its common when breaking and also when shooting frozen rail shots or while jacked up over a very close ball, during shots like that the ball strike is our focus because when must get a clean hit, during shots where access to the cue ball is unlimited our key focus is where the cue ball is going because it is easier to get a clean hit. I think it boils down to whichever task is more difficult is the point we must focus the most attention on.This means little in the way of dismissing CBL. I look at the OB too if I have no other concerns.
lol I like you but you get so thick sometimes.
I have a part in my PSR that entails rehearsing the shot as it lays, in mid air. Simply air shoot the shot right over the cue ball. You can test not just the speed but all the other dynamics as well. Yes, english, throw, CIT, SIT, anything else that might concern you on any given shot.To send an object to a distance with pinpoint accuracy we must focus on the target. in pool I think the target is the object ball. We can accurately strike a cue ball eyes closed if we line up on it eyes open. Not so when golfing or batting, you need pinpoint accuracy for the ball strike but are satisfied with a general area for the ball target. I guess you have to decide which is the target, tip to cue ball contact or object ball cue ball contact. I dunno, it just seems to me that your focus has to be on what is the key part of the activity, in pool for me the key part is the object ball contact, I think there is enough footage of the guys that earn a living at this game to conclude they do the same. For me and golf I am happy to put the ball somewhere green and in front of me.
Absolutely. I know that I focus more on the cue ball until my backstroke and the pause on my backstroke where my focus shifts to the object ball.
No I'm not claiming anything about other player's motivations. Just that CBL works period.
How do test the physics of a shot without actually moving a ball?
I think a major reason players who are learning aiming should look at the object ball last is to see where they land the cue ball on the object ball. For them, I think cue ball last is very bad advice.
As for the OP, it would be interesting to see before and after videos of him shooting including his eye pattern. I wonder if it was the "quiet eye" principle that gave him his perceived improvement.
As for the OP, it would be interesting to see before and after videos of him shooting including his eye pattern. I wonder if it was the "quiet eye" principle that gave him his perceived improvement.
DieselPete
Well-known member
Digging into my biomechanics background...
Sports in which you look at a target tend to be ones in which you are holding the projectile.
You look at the dart board
...the bowling pins
...the catcher's glove,
...the basket
...the wide receiver
Sports in which you look at the ball (or object you are striking) is when you are not holding it.
You look at the soccer ball when passing and shooting
...the golf ball
...the baseball when batting
...the hockey puck when passing or shooting
So, what makes pool different?
We have two targets. Strike the CB, so it moves and strikes the OB. Under the normal rules, we would look at the CB last because it is not an object that we are holding.
HOWEVER!
We have tremendous stability in our set up, our bridge, and our stroke. The cue ball is not moving. Striking it squarely is nowhere near as complicated as hitting a golf ball with a 70-110 mph swing. The CB isn't moving, and we shouldn't be either (other than a very controlled and straight stroke). It is a very controlled or contained action and strike.
For that reason, we can look at the OB even though we are not holding the CB.
DOUBLE HOWEVER...
When striking the CB is more complicated, like a jump, masse, sometimes shooting off the rail, and when tree topped badly, I bet many people do look at the CB last.
EDIT TO ADD: Some golfers that are incredibly compact and dependable in their putting stroke have tried looking at the target (the hole or target line), which is like OBL. But even that stroke has enough moving parts that I don't love it on putts of any meaningful length.
Sports in which you look at a target tend to be ones in which you are holding the projectile.
You look at the dart board
...the bowling pins
...the catcher's glove,
...the basket
...the wide receiver
Sports in which you look at the ball (or object you are striking) is when you are not holding it.
You look at the soccer ball when passing and shooting
...the golf ball
...the baseball when batting
...the hockey puck when passing or shooting
So, what makes pool different?
We have two targets. Strike the CB, so it moves and strikes the OB. Under the normal rules, we would look at the CB last because it is not an object that we are holding.
HOWEVER!
We have tremendous stability in our set up, our bridge, and our stroke. The cue ball is not moving. Striking it squarely is nowhere near as complicated as hitting a golf ball with a 70-110 mph swing. The CB isn't moving, and we shouldn't be either (other than a very controlled and straight stroke). It is a very controlled or contained action and strike.
For that reason, we can look at the OB even though we are not holding the CB.
DOUBLE HOWEVER...
When striking the CB is more complicated, like a jump, masse, sometimes shooting off the rail, and when tree topped badly, I bet many people do look at the CB last.
EDIT TO ADD: Some golfers that are incredibly compact and dependable in their putting stroke have tried looking at the target (the hole or target line), which is like OBL. But even that stroke has enough moving parts that I don't love it on putts of any meaningful length.
I see three advantages to CBL:
1. It might help with beginning and intermediate players who have issues with "steering", and there are a lot of them.
2. It commits you to the shot. No last second aiming changes. It is all set, pause, finish. Better focus, no distractions.
3. When using sidespin, the cue is no longer oriented to the aim point on the OB, so you might as well not look at the OB, lest you subconsciously steer back to the aim point.
Advanced players are generally beyond these issues.
1. It might help with beginning and intermediate players who have issues with "steering", and there are a lot of them.
2. It commits you to the shot. No last second aiming changes. It is all set, pause, finish. Better focus, no distractions.
3. When using sidespin, the cue is no longer oriented to the aim point on the OB, so you might as well not look at the OB, lest you subconsciously steer back to the aim point.
Advanced players are generally beyond these issues.
For students with that problem, I have them watch the ferrule on the final stroke. That also forces them to see their follow-through and whether they stay down.
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I like to generalize to say that your best performance comes from eyes locked onto “something” whether it is cue ball, object ball, or the cloth in between. As long as your eyes are not moving you can learn from it to make your own decisions.
If your eyes are always moving around you will be lost no matter what you choose.
If your eyes are always moving around you will be lost no matter what you choose.
Good post. Not dissimilar from one I have posted several times in the past:
"For one large set of sports actions, let's call it Category I, the competitor is holding or is attached to a piece of equipment and desires to direct that piece of equipment elsewhere:
- Throwing a baseball;
- Throwing a football;
- Throwing/shooting a basketball;
- Throwing a dart;
- Rolling a bowling ball;
- Shooting an arrow;
- Shooting a gun;
- Driving a race car;
- Riding a race horse.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the target for the ball or dart or car, etc. -- not at the ball (or steering wheel).
For another large set of sports actions, let's call it Category II, the competitor holds one piece of equipment and desires to hit another piece of equipment and direct that second piece of equipment to a desired target or with a certain degree of accuracy:
- Hitting a baseball;
- Kicking a football;
- Hitting a tennis ball;
- Hitting a golf ball;
- Hitting a ping pong ball;
- Hitting a badminton shuttlecock;
- Striking a volley ball.
In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the ball -- not at the target for that ball and not at the piece of equipment he is holding.
So how about pool/billiards? Isn't it logically a Category II action? We hold one piece of equipment (the cue stick), desiring to strike a second piece of equipment (the cue ball), and send that second piece of equipment to a desired target (a proper hit on the object ball or rail). We are throwing the cue stick in an underhand motion at the cue ball. So "cue ball last" is appropriate, right?
But I am quite sure that the majority (but by no means all) of the top pool players look at the object ball last. If my analogies above are correct, why does "OB last" work so well for so many players? I believe it is because the cue ball is at rest and we can place our cue stick and bridge hand precisely behind it and thereby treat the combination of cue stick and cue ball as almost one piece of equipment instead of two. Then the cuing action becomes similar to a Category I action -- we are throwing the cue stick/ball at the object ball. So "object ball last" works just fine if the cue stick is always precisely delivered to the cue ball.
So either way -- CB last or OB last -- can work well in pool. I believe analogies with other sports argue more closely for CB last (my Category II above), but just a slightly different way of viewing what's happening can create a good Category I argument.
And I would add that many "CB last" folks probably also have the object ball in their peripheral vision while the central focus is on the cue ball."
I also have my own personal opinion, I 100% look at the object ball last and think you can see many things a one time, but you can only focus on one thng at a time IMHO
For most shots, there is no problem seeing both contacts -- cue stick to cue ball and cue ball to object ball.
[Just don't jump up from the former to see the latter.]
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