Unexpected CB reaction - Cut Induced Spin?!?

dquarasr

dquarasr

Registered
I had this shot on the 12. I used running English, about 10:30 on the CB, about 1 tip. I was trying to go around the 2 ball three rails, coming into the shot line for the 8 in the upper right corner. I am pretty sure I hit the CB close to my intended spot, medium speed. But instead of going left off the short rail on the left, the CB made a right turn and came on the other side of the 2 ball, not even straight. It actually came off the left short rail a little bit closer to the upper long rail.

I ended up with perfect shape on the 8 in the lower side pocket, but I was surprised by the CB reaction. This is not the first time this has happened to me. I am trying to understand why.

Does the OB incur that much Cut Induced Spin as to negate the left spin I had imparted on the CB? Should I have used pure left side, rather than top left?

Thanks for your help.

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It sounds to me as if you hit it so high that you had a forced follow that kept it much closer to the long rail than you intended and pretty much negated any left...
 
So, after the 12 ball, the cueball hit the top rail, then the left rail, and then passed between the top rail and the 2 ball. That shot is impossible unless there is something very wrong with the equipment. Like loose rubber.

The other possibility is that the shot was very different from the diagram. Even so, if you did hit the ball at 10:30, there is no way the spin could have reversed to be right.
 
Yeah, I just set it up and hit it a bunch of times. I think I am remembering it wrong. In experimentation just now, I am pretty sure the CB was much closer to the top long rail, much less of a cut than I diagrammed.

I tried hitting it a bunch of different ways. The only time I got the reaction I saw last night is when I put a touch of right spin on the CB. So I must have been aiming very slight left, lots of top, but actually hit it with a touch of right. It's the only way the CB could get the reaction it did. Obviously I need to be much more cognizant of my tip position, especially when close to center ball.

I have had perception issues on some shots where I am actually setting up slightly right on the CB of where I am intending. Something to continue to work on....

Thanks for your response.
David in FL said:
It sounds to me as if you hit it so high that you had a forced follow that kept it much closer to the long rail than you intended and pretty much negated any left...
Click to expand...
 
Bob Jewett said:
So, after the 12 ball, the cueball hit the top rail, then the left rail, and then passed between the top rail and the 2 ball. That shot is impossible unless there is something very wrong with the equipment. Like loose rubber.

The other possibility is that the shot was very different from the diagram. Even so, if you did hit the ball at 10:30, there is no way the spin could have reversed to be right.
Click to expand...
Correct. After the 12, the CB hit the upper long rail then the left short rail, then came mostly straight up the table, above the 2 between the 2 and the upper long rail, while I expected it to come below the 2, between the 2 and the lower long rail (from the diagram's perspective.)

After playing with it this morning, I think I am remembering it wrong, and I must have hit it terribly wrong. See my response above to David in FL.

Thanks for responding.
 
The CB never lies. Look at it this way: you just learned a new positional shot. Doesn't come up often, but when it does, it can be very useful.

You've probably (when the shot's even straighter) experienced scratching in the corner you shot the ball in. That's caused by the same CB reaction you had on this shot. When you cut a ball (or rail) left or right with topspin the CB always curves in the direction of the cut.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Another way to say it is with topspin the CB always curves forward of the tangent line. Which way is clearer may depend on the specific layout.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Yes that's a good way to describe it. In this situation, where the curve occurs after rail contact, I'm not really sure how we could even determine a tangent line.
 
dquarasr said:
Yeah, I just set it up and hit it a bunch of times. I think I am remembering it wrong. In experimentation just now, I am pretty sure the CB was much closer to the top long rail, much less of a cut than I diagrammed.

I tried hitting it a bunch of different ways. The only time I got the reaction I saw last night is when I put a touch of right spin on the CB. So I must have been aiming very slight left, lots of top, but actually hit it with a touch of right. It's the only way the CB could get the reaction it did. Obviously I need to be much more cognizant of my tip position, especially when close to center ball.

I have had perception issues on some shots where I am actually setting up slightly right on the CB of where I am intending. Something to continue to work on....

Thanks for your response.
Click to expand...


Just a couple more points pertaining to this situation. First a question. Are you clear on what actually happened and why? Do you understand what I'm talking about in regards cutting a ball or rail and how that, along with speed, determines the direction of CB curve? If not, say so and I'll explain it in more detail.

Point 1 would be with the shot being straighter than diagrammed wouldn't it be better to draw back for the side pocket for the 8? Even with the position diagrammed I'd probably soft draw it for the side. But it's right on the edge of being too thin so going 3 rails is fine except I would still play for the side. Think about it and see if you can come up with some reasons why playing for the side is a better option. 3 come to mind.

Another thing is using "high" inside in general. I think a lot of people latch onto to that term and concept because they're constantly hearing it from JJ and other commentators. The majority of times follow is unnecessary and does little or nothing to help.
With the diagrammed shot, striking an eighth to quarter inch above and the same amount to the left of center will send the CB in the vicinity of the diamond to the right of the upper side pocket. You'll have approx. 5 feet along that line where the CB can stop and always have an easy shot on the 8 in the side. Play around with it, I think you'll like it.
 
sparkle84 said:
In this situation, where the curve occurs after rail contact, I'm not really sure how we could even determine a tangent line.
Click to expand...
Looks like it's more or less straight into/out from the cushion - the angle from the CB is steep enough that follow wouldn't have a large effect by itself.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Looks like it's more or less straight into/out from the cushion - the angle from the CB is steep enough that follow wouldn't have a large effect by itself.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


Not sure we're on the same page here. Are you talking about the diagrammed shot? I'm talking about the straighter shot Dq admits to in posts 4&5. Either way, yes, the CB will, basically be coming off the rail at 90 degrees approximate.

In both cases, follow has the same characteristics, it's just that the straighter the shot the less distance before the curve. That should be obvious.
Side English has largely (but not completely) no affect until contacting a 2nd rail. Follow is the driving force here, side can only detract from that and increase distance before the curve.
 
sparkle84 said:
In both cases, follow has the same characteristics, it's just that the straighter the shot the less distance before the curve.
Click to expand...
The straighter the shot, the straighter the follow path.

sparkle84 said:
Side English has largely (but not completely) no affect until contacting a 2nd rail. Follow is the driving force here, side can only detract from that and increase distance before the curve.
Click to expand...
Side has angle-changing effect on each rail contacted, especially when hitting the rail perpendicularly like this - no effect on follow.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
The straighter the shot, the straighter the follow path.


Side has angle-changing effect on each rail contacted, especially when hitting the rail perpendicularly like this - no effect on follow.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


Perhaps you could diagram the shot he described along with the path of the CB.
 
dquarasr said:
Yeah, I just set it up and hit it a bunch of times. I think I am remembering it wrong. In experimentation just now, I am pretty sure the CB was much closer to the top long rail, much less of a cut than I diagrammed.
Click to expand...
sparkle84 said:
Not sure we're on the same page here. Are you talking about the diagrammed shot? I'm talking about the straighter shot Dq admits to in posts 4&5. Either way, yes, the CB will, basically be coming off the rail at 90 degrees approximate.

In both cases, follow has the same characteristics, it's just that the straighter the shot the less distance before the curve. That should be obvious.
Side English has largely (but not completely) no affect until contacting a 2nd rail. Follow is the driving force here, side can only detract from that and increase distance before the curve.
Click to expand...
Patrick Johnson said:
The straighter the shot, the straighter the follow path.


Side has angle-changing effect on each rail contacted, especially when hitting the rail perpendicularly like this - no effect on follow.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
i should probably not get in the middle of @sparkle84 and @Patrick Johnson discussion
but i will ....🤪
patrick
i think the shot sparkle is talking about is the one i diagrammed below and i think is the gist of the amended shot by @dquarasr
(the diagram makes it look straight but it should be a 7 degree cut or so ,,,ie not quite straight /not much cut)
because the cue ball would going into the rail on a more glancing angle than perpendicular most of the side spin effect you would see
would be off the 2nd rail
jmho
icbw
if this is of no help
and if my assumptions are wrong
i will delete this post
................................
patrick and sparkle.png
 
bbb said:
i should probably not get in the middle of @sparkle84 and @Patrick Johnson discussion
but i will ....🤪
patrick
i think the shot sparkle is talking about is the one i diagrammed below and i think is the gist of the amended shot by @dquarasr
(the diagram makes it look straight but it should be a 7 degree cut or so ,,,ie not quite straight /not much cut)
because the cue ball would going into the rail on a more glancing angle than perpendicular most of the side spin effect you would see
would be off the 2nd rail
jmho
icbw
if this is of no help
and if my assumptions are wrong
i will delete this post
................................
View attachment 921732
Click to expand...
Thanks, Larry - I think you’re right. Sorry, Sparks, if I misrepresented you.

pj
chgo
 
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bbb said:
i should probably not get in the middle of @sparkle84 and @Patrick Johnson discussion
but i will ....🤪
patrick
i think the shot sparkle is talking about is the one i diagrammed below and i think is the gist of the amended shot by @dquarasr
(the diagram makes it look straight but it should be a 7 degree cut or so ,,,ie not quite straight /not much cut)
because the cue ball would going into the rail on a more glancing angle than perpendicular most of the side spin effect you would see
would be off the 2nd rail
jmho
icbw
if this is of no help
and if my assumptions are wrong
i will delete this post
................................
View attachment 921732
Click to expand...
Good post bbb. Yes, all my comments were made with the straighter shot in mind. Once Bob said the diagrammed shot was impossible and Dq then stated he believed the shot was straighter than he originally thought, I assumed (my mistake) that everyone was viewing the described CB path from that perspective.

That CB reaction could only happen if the shot were straighter. My mistake was thinking everyone knows this shot. I should know better. This is a shot that comes up very infrequently. I'd guess I may have only shot this shot 3 or 4 times in my life. I estimate I've shot about 5 million balls in my life so that tells you how rare it is. So a large majority of people have never seen it, didn't even know it existed.

Bob and I know the shot, along with David in Fla. I assumed Pj knew it but possibly he's never seen it, so possibly his replies and analysis came from a totally different perspective. No worries. Plus I'm not that great at explaining things sometimes.

I've only seen this one time on video. The player was Justin Hall. I looked for awhile but couldn't find it. Can't remember his opponent, that would help narrow it down. It was probably a one pocket game and the shot was down along the short rail which is usual for this shot. If I find it I'll post the link.

I think it might be time to learn how to do diagrams. Would have been helpful on this thread.
 
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