WNT, WPA and 2026
- Thread starter jbart65
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Saw an interview with Predator CEO Karim Belhaj. Evidently Predator is holding an event in Jacksonville, Fla in December (15th to 20th) that will bring together the best 16 men's player and the best 16 women's players. What Karim called an "all-star" event.
Seems there will be a World Masters type format. I assume it will be one event for the men, one for the women, then a mixed event.
Sure appears to be Predator's answer to the Mosconi.
He did not say how the top 16 among the men and top 16 among the women will be picked. Could be simply WPA rankings, or a combination of rankings and wildcard picks.
Seems there will be a World Masters type format. I assume it will be one event for the men, one for the women, then a mixed event.
Sure appears to be Predator's answer to the Mosconi.
He did not say how the top 16 among the men and top 16 among the women will be picked. Could be simply WPA rankings, or a combination of rankings and wildcard picks.
jax_joe
Well-known member
Watched it the other day. Hopefully it will be more than just that or it will be quite a drop off from last year's event here in JAX. Hopefully he brings back one of the Championship events next year (originally they stated it was a three year venue contract) after rotating out the Women's championship. They have already reduced the event by a day as the Jags have a Monday night game next door.
Probably repeating a few points, but I'm 100% with Predator events over MR. Free to attend, free to watch the streams, correct ball colors, multiple events going on, big prize pools.
Someone somewhere else put it perfectly: Predator asks, "what can I provide the customer?" while MR asks, "what can I get out of the customer?"
Someone somewhere else put it perfectly: Predator asks, "what can I provide the customer?" while MR asks, "what can I get out of the customer?"
I like what Predator is doing, but I don't see it as either/or.
Nothing is free, of course. Somebody is paying for hosting the attendees or letting people watch live streams.
The question is, does "free" in this regard generate more revenue overall than requiring onsite attendees to pay, plus pay per view? If not, the players do not benefit ultimately. They only benefit is if the, well, pool of money grows steadily over time and it gets distributed to the players.
In any case, all sports leagues use different business models, but virtually all require some form of payment from customers. You can still watch your local NFL team for "free" over the air TV, but that's about it. Most have to pay to see their MLB, NBA, NHL and even their college sports team play.
Don't care. Players adjust. All I care about is that I can easily distinguish the balls on TV.
I wouldn't want to see multiple events going on in and around the US Open. Some big events demand their own time in the sun. Players can get too spread out playing multiple events at a time.
That said, Predator does multiple events well, and they are enjoyable.
Predator and WNT are similar, but a cursory look suggests WNT pays slightly more for big men's events relative to Predator.
WPA/Predator 10-ball World title has a $300,000 fund. Ditto for the Predator 8-ball World Champion. The other big Predator events in the past year have paid out $125,000 or $100,000 in total.
All WNT majors with 256 players pay at least $225,000. US Open has a $500,000 fund. The World Pool Championship was paying $1 million, but it might not be held this year. We don't know what the next payout will be in light of the shortening of the deal with Saudi Arabia.
Sorry, I think this is nonsense. Predator is using one business model, WNT another. The only thing Matchroom gets out of me is a subscription for WNT. TV. That's it.
I am happy to pay it. Free for me, the fan, means the players don't get much. Pool doesn't get much ad revenue or attract big companies as sponsors outside of the industry.
I would guess Predator is trying to see if it gets enough eyeballs from "free" viewing that it can attract more fans and translate that into more ad revenue.
It would be great if it worked, but I don't see it happening. My guess is WNT's dual part-pay, part free approach will work a bit better, but I am not sure either Predator or WNT can turn pro pool into a big moneymaker with broad advertising partners.
In order....
1) It's free to me. I don't pay for a subscription or for a ticket.
2) I care as a viewer
3) Multiple events are almost always more interesting, although I agree something like the US Open is great as a standalone.
4) The fact that Predator can put out similar-sized (and sometimes bigger) prize pools than MR without charging the consumer is a huge plus.
5) They are using different business models. And Predator's is more appealing to this fan. It's hard to say the players don't get much when they get about just as much as from MR. Yes, Predator events exist mostly to promote their brand and sell their stuff. But so what? I get to watch great pool. I hope their business model holds up.
Forgot to address this. I hope the two organizations can work together in the future. But for right now, they are largely competitors.
Not that I have heard. Looking at the WPA calendar, there are only 1-2 spots potentially available in either Nov or Dec. It's tight.
Agreed, but I don't expect this to change anytime soon. For now I hope the competition sharpens both of them, and shows us what works and what doesn't.
Your responses to my post above were reasonable. I don't quibble with them.
In my view, the only way pro pool might achieve notably more commercial success is if there is a predictable tour or season, much like with Nascar or tennis and golf. Even then I have my doubts.
Predator hasn't tried to create a season. To me, it just holds a bunch of disparate events, none of them really connected to each other aside from the ability to earn WPA points for admittance to other PBS events.
Predator is also creating all these so-called "World" Championships, and not just in 8 and 10 ball. I find it almost amusing, though it doesn't really matter.
WNT is trying to build an actual tour in which success over the course of the season means something and leads to something. Originally participation in the Mosconi. Now the Reyes. And evidently the World Pool Masters.
It's been a bit of a rough go so far. WNT has clearly made some mistakes (I hate the Reyes format). I won't rehash them. We know what they are.
Predator's new "all-star" format appears to a form of trying to address this.
i like predator events, but it feels like MR events are just harder to win. there's something with the MR stage and setting that shakes the players. prize money is higher but i don't think it's that
I agree. Just seems to be a lot more tension from the quarters on. The stage setup and cameras play a role. The rooms are always darker too, something I noticed recently for the first time.
From where, bar box world? The problem with pool in America and on this forum also is people thinking bar box is pool, it isn’t, any more than putt putt is golf. Look at the international players from Europe, Philippines, Taiwan, etc. Do you see any of these players coming from places where bar boxes are prevalent, or that they play on bar boxes regularly? No, you don’t, and the league people here at AZB getting bristled about it doesn’t change it from being a simple fact.
hayden ernst is quite impressive. young big table player
Yes he is. The problem is that there are very few of them. If you look at promising young juniors in America, there’s only a handful.
In a little over a decade, junior programs in Europe started producing an army of them. The same with state run programs in Taiwan and China. There’s a plethora of them in the Philippines that are more than talented enough but lack finances or sponsorship to get out of the Philippines.
America was once the premier location of professional level pool players, there were only a handful of international players that could compete at that level. Then pool in America kind of died as it turned to bar boxes while international players became prevalent due to the aforementioned programs above, all played on big tracks. As a result, Americans are now the minority in elite levels of competition, while International players are the majority. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out how that changed.
You're saying this like it's a bad thing. This is what success looks like. This is a sport gaining traction.
It would not actually good to have the US dominate simply because nobody else cares. The US has I think more strong junior prospects than it has in a long time. But at the same time the rest of the world is showing interest, That's a good thing.
It’s not a bad thing that the rest of the world fell in love with and started to engage in, and succeed at this game at an elite level, THAT is a sign of a sport gaining traction as you state, but not in the USA.
Sadly while the rest of the world has flocked to the sport, Americans have turned away from it, for a bastardized version of it. I don’t agree with your assessment of the status of juniors in this country, but you are entitled to your opinions.
As I stated in the post you partially quoted, Americas potential prospects are few because Americans have turned away from the game PROPER, and embraced bar boxes, insisting that it’s pool, when it isn’t. As a result pool halls have dwindled to an all time low in number, either going out of business, or having a fire sale for their actual pool tables, and refilling their space with bar boxes to serve league and recreational bangers. You know, those that you serve with your rating system, APA, TAP, etc.
I don’t know if it can be reversed to where Americans will ever again have more than a few players at the upper elite levels of the pro game. To do so, then Americans need to embrace the actual game again, just as those those in Europe and Asia did. For the BCA to get off their ass and form youth programs that compete on 9’ tables to develop the skills necessary to compete at elite levels again with the International players that now dominate the sport. I’m doubtful that will occur though.
We as a country are not going to produce world class players on bar boxes. You don’t see players rise on the PGA golf tour from miniature golf courses or from 9 hole par 3 courses. There’s a reason for that, because you cannot gain the skill set to be a professional golfer from those 2 venues. Likewise we as a country will not produce pro pool players from bar box pool venues and leagues.
EDIT: let me add this for the bar boxes enthusiasts on here that will read this post and loudly declare for the umpteenth time that all of you, “league players have kept pool alive in this country”. In the slang words of our youth, STOP THE CAP!!!
You have NOT kept pool alive, you killed it by abandoning pool halls with proper pool tables to play on a miniature version of it that’s EASIER and makes you feel better about your abilities. Also for those that say “all we have in our region is bar boxes”. Well that’s because in your region the players abandoned the game long ago causing halls to close and leaving only venues with bar boxes. The only thing that recreational and league bar box players have kept alive is pool equipment manufacturers. Those that make all the cues, cases, specialized LD and carbon fiber shafts, $20 chalk and all the other things you spend a fortune on, buying every new offering, to either impress your fellow league players, or an attempt to buy an actual skill set, which can’t be done. The only thing you can buy to really improve your game is table time and then put in the work. Sadly in this current day and age of desire for instant gratification, putting in time and effort isn’t as appealing as buying the new Predator 5000 Z supercharged shaft or fancy chalk.
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