Draw vs Follow Which is Harder to Execute

wwjdwithca

wwjdwithca

Registered
dr_dave said:
Whether you impart top or bottom spin to the OB should not affect the direction the OB heads (in any meaningful or significant way).

Did anyone mention CB hop that comes with firm follow shots? If the CB hits the OB while airborne (which is likely with a firm follow shot), the OB will be overcut slightly. For more info, see:

follow shot ball hop
jump shot overcut effect

Enjoy,
Dave
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Well, I wasn't saying it affected the direction, I was saying that it causes the object ball to skid, similar to a stun shot on cue ball. I hit a lot of shots in both directions and found I was able to pot balls as soon as I added this correction factor, so it wasn't any spin I was imparting.

So do you think the object ball immediately tracks with forward spin when struck by a follow shot?
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

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wwjdwithca said:
So when you strike heavy follow and make a cut shot the angle at which you cut will be lessened by the FACT that the object ball will skid some distance down the table before it starts tracking and rolling normally.
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wwjdwithca said:
Well, I wasn't saying it affected the direction, I was saying that it causes the object ball to skid, similar to a stun shot on cue ball. I hit a lot of shots in both directions and found I was able to pot balls as soon as I added this correction factor, so it wasn't any spin I was imparting.

So do you think the object ball immediately tracks with forward spin when struck by a follow shot?
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I agree with you that the OB will slide before developing full roll. However, it still heads in the direction it is struck (i.e., whether the OB starts with topspin, bottom-spin, or stun, it still heads in a straight line ... it doesn't curve).

Also, the amount the OB throws should be the same whether the CB has topspin or an equivalent amount of backspin (for shots of the same angle and speed).

When you say "the angle at which you cut will be lessened," do you mean you are aiming for a fuller hit (less cut angle) with the follow shot as compared to the draw shot?

If so, this could be explained by the ball-hop effect.

Now, if you are comparing a firm follow shot to a slower-speed draw shot or to a stun shot, you definitely need to cut the ball less with the firm follow shot because a slower-speed (or less-than-maximum-backspin) draw shot or a stun shot (of any speed) will definitely throw the OB more, requiring a larger cut. For more info, see:

throw draw and follow effects
maximum throw

Regards,
Dave
 
ceebee

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
wwjdwithca said:
Am I the only one that finds heavy follow to affect my shots sigfinifcantly more than heavy draw?

I was researching how to improve my follow shot accuracy and found many articles saying to convert to follow instead fo usiing draw, so I'm like, what?

And when I say "heavy" I mean forcing the CB to travel 2 ft or more after impact. And when I say, "affect my shots" i mean causing me to miss potting the object ball as opposed to mild follow or draw.
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I went to Airway Billiards in 2001 & spent 3 days with George Rood. I had already played Pool for 40+ years, but I wanted to make the jump to another plateau. After watching me play for a day or so, George says to me, "why don't you ever use use some real high follow on your shots?"... I said "I do". He says you are only hitting a tip or so above center, hit the CB higher. He gave me a lesson using "follow". I had to hit balls, snugged up against the rail", for a couple hours. He said, THAT is high follow....

Practicing your shot making off the rail DOES HELP OUT.

Good Luck
 
wwjdwithca

wwjdwithca

Registered
dr_dave said:
When you say "the angle at which you cut will be lessened," do you mean you are aiming for a fuller hit (less cut angle) with the follow shot as compared to the draw shot?

If so, this could be explained by the ball-hop effect.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Maybe your right, maybe it's simply the hop effect. However, the hop effect would not be in play when the distance is substaintial before the CB strikes the object ball. I'll have to play with those shots more; the hop effect would be gone at that point. I'll mess with that today.

Thanks for you feedback, very interesting!
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

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wwjdwithca said:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Maybe your right, maybe it's simply the hop effect. However, the hop effect would not be in play when the distance is substaintial before the CB strikes the object ball. I'll have to play with those shots more; the hop effect would be gone at that point. I'll mess with that today.

Thanks for you feedback, very interesting!
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With a really firm follow shot, the CB can hop over a fairly large distance (3-5') and then bounce and hop again.

Regards,
Dave
 
J

JimSabatke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
SmoothStroke said:
Neither is harder to execute, draw is harder to control the distance for many players. I honestly don't think they practice the stroke enough to be confident in their distance control.

2 ft is not heavy follow, I am not being a braggart so please don't take it as such. I can follow 2 table lengths and more, with a long, short or medium length bridge, I can do the same with draw, or move it 6 inches.
When I hit it the cue ball it hesitates, then grabs and takes off, just like a power draw .

Work on your stroke technique for all speeds, that's the name of the game.

If you want send me a message and I will give you a drill that will perfect your follow stroke.

If not that's ok,,, make sure you level out your cue on delivery, don't force the stroke, you don't want to be jacked up or elevated with your swing arm, that's for another day.

Sincerely: SS
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I use a lot of follow on my shots. For balls near the rail and the pocket, I often use high follow on the side of the cue away from the rail when I have other balls in the area that I want to pocket in the same pocket. A bit of practice with that and you may find yourself setting up shots better and more often.

The advice that it's easier to get a lot of follow is true in my experience, and to be able to control it even more so. You are already hitting the cue ball with momentum in the follow direction, so adding more is natural. Fast tables also make follow a lot easier than draw. I've also found some tables act differently in different places, like their gummy or dirty, or even slick on one end or corner, where draw acts differently than other locations on the table; probably all due to customer abuse with grunge.

It's just my opinion, but with the exception of minor or stop draw, follow is much easier to control and in the end, leaves me with the next shot I wanted much easier.

Good luck!

Jim
 
SmoothStroke

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
JimSabatke said:
I use a lot of follow on my shots. For balls near the rail and the pocket, I often use high follow on the side of the cue away from the rail when I have other balls in the area that I want to pocket in the same pocket. A bit of practice with that and you may find yourself setting up shots better and more often.

The advice that it's easier to get a lot of follow is true in my experience, and to be able to control it even more so. You are already hitting the cue ball with momentum in the follow direction, so adding more is natural. Fast tables also make follow a lot easier than draw. I've also found some tables act differently in different places, like their gummy or dirty, or even slick on one end or corner, where draw acts differently than other locations on the table; probably all due to customer abuse with grunge.

It's just my opinion, but with the exception of minor or stop draw, follow is much easier to control and in the end, leaves me with the next shot I wanted much easier.

Good luck!

Jim
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It's pretty difficult to play pool one way. I try to play forward into the natural angles as much as possible but that only happens when the planets are in total alignment, which is never. I don't favor draw or follow I just play. I do what I have to, follow, draw, stun, roll, reverse, it doesn't matter, whatever the game tells me to play.

Natural forward roll is the best way for me, I don't think I have ever played a game with stop and draw on every shot. I did do that drill where you shoot 15 balls and not touch a rail, 3 times in a row, my 15 minutes of fame.

Have a great day
Sincerely:SS
 
9Ballr

9Ballr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
wwjdwithca said:
Am I the only one that finds heavy follow to affect my shots sigfinifcantly more than heavy draw?
I was researching how to improve my follow shot accuracy and found many articles saying to convert to follow instead fo usiing draw, so I'm like, what?
And when I say "heavy" I mean forcing the CB to travel 2 ft or more after impact. And when I say, "affect my shots" i mean causing me to miss potting the object ball as opposed to mild follow or draw.
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For me a really strong draw is harder than a strong follow.
I sometimes lose my accuracy when I do long draw shots.
Not so with follow.
But it's just a matter of practice.
And sure enough things are getting better.
 
G

GaryB

AzB Silver Member
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There was a guy who used to show up a local Sat when he was in town on business who almost always used follow. I think that his name was Mark Edwards but we called him "Mr. Follow." When I asked him about it he said "The balls are round and are designed to roll." Now he could draw really well but preferred follow. A good stroke can do anything but rolling balls is the natural way according to Mark.
 
The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
wwjdwithca said:
Am I the only one that finds heavy follow to affect my shots sigfinifcantly more than heavy draw?

I was researching how to improve my follow shot accuracy and found many articles saying to convert to follow instead fo usiing draw, so I'm like, what?

And when I say "heavy" I mean forcing the CB to travel 2 ft or more after impact. And when I say, "affect my shots" i mean causing me to miss potting the object ball as opposed to mild follow or draw.
Click to expand...

Your avatar is your answer... The predator shafts are hotter on the bottom of the ball than they are on top of it... I played for a decade with the precat 314s and I always favored drawing the ball because the LD shaft just didn't get thru the ball as well when I used top... This is also why I hated being stuck on the rail... I always had to make sure my best stroke was in play if I was going to force follow the ball or I would miss the shot or the cueball just wouldn't seem to have the travel I wanted.. I actually altered my bridge to be up on a tripod on my fingertips for follow shots because I seemed to have few problems than when the cue was angled more upward........
 
victorl

victorl

Where'd my stroke go?
Silver Member
For me anyway:

Soft shots: Follow is much easier to control, but for mid-range to long shots, I prefer drag shots with bottom so I can hit firmer and avoid roll-off.

Medium-speed shots: No real difference between follow and draw although I feel like I can pocket the balls more cleanly with a crisp center-ball or draw stroke.

Power shots: Prefer draw over follow because it lets me shoot down and thru the ball. I tend to steer when playing force follow shots, especially over distance.

Overall, I find draw to be easier but definitely prefer using follow to get natural position whenever possible.
 
A

Ak147

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Follow when you can draw when you must.

I have observed follow comes with experience. Younger players prefer's draw.
 
The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
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dr_dave said:
With a really firm follow shot, the CB can hop over a fairly large distance (3-5') and then bounce and hop again.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Every time or only if you don't control you cue angle??? ohh wait 3-5 ft means you aren't controlling whitey at all... C'mon now you really think pros or even good amateurs can't do better???
 
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SJDinPHX

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
victorl said:
For me anyway:

Soft shots: Follow is much easier to control, but for mid-range to long shots, I prefer drag shots with bottom so I can hit firmer and avoid roll-off.<--VERY important !

Medium-speed shots: No real difference between follow and draw although I feel like I can pocket the balls more cleanly with a crisp center-ball or draw stroke. <--And you really can !

Power shots: Prefer draw over follow because it lets me shoot down and thru the ball. I tend to steer when playing force follow shots, especially over distance.<--This should be the very first thing to learn !

Overall, I find draw to be easier but definitely prefer using follow to get natural position whenever possible.<--
--Amen,..but only on easily pocketed shots, with natural angles !
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Mr. Victorl, that is a perfect description of how all really good, accomplished players will look at 'draw vs. follow'...Otherwise, they would probably never have become a good player to begin with !...You will very seldom see a top player, attempt a long shot, almost straight in, using follow..They will often take a tougher shot on the next ball if need be, to avoid using 'force follow'!..Watch Efren, or SVB (or any 'smart' player)..when they get a little out of line..and you will see
what I mean ! :thumbup:
 
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wwjdwithca

wwjdwithca

Registered
dr_dave said:
Whether you impart top or bottom spin to the OB should not affect the direction the OB heads (in any meaningful or significant way).

Did anyone mention CB hop that comes with firm follow shots? If the CB hits the OB while airborne (which is likely with a firm follow shot), the OB will be overcut slightly. For more info, see:

follow shot ball hop
jump shot overcut effect

Enjoy,
Dave
Click to expand...

So after additinional testing and general work on my game your right Dave, in that both follow and draw cause the angle to change based on how firm you strike it. My accruacy in a draw just may be better because I've done it more, like several stated. Pretty eye opening actually. Huge improvement to my ball potting ability. My concentration is now my primary reason for misses. My vision is getting better nearly every day being able to visualize one side of the pocket or another. For some reason I seem to be willing to give the pocket away when aligning far to often, instead of playing to the inside of the pocket. Maybe some weird desire to always put the ball in the center of the pocket?
 
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