Tips of English

skipbales said:

You can fit 3 of these [1/8-inch "tips"] around the cue ball and remain within the miscue limits.

Click to expand...

Actually, you can fit more than 4 of them (miscue limit = 9/16" or so).

I don't like "tips" at all for reasons like this - it's just too nebulous and undefined. For universal understanding, percentages of maximum are the only way to go.

Here's another recent thread about it:

How Much Is A Tip of English?

pj
chgo

Whether you use a 13mm shaft, or an 11mm shaft, or a dime radius, or a nickel radius, the contact area tends to stay the same at 3mm. 3mm is the size of the circle on a red circle cb.

IMO, a tip of spin should always equal a 3mm offset from center axis. I know many, if not most, use the diameter of the ferrule, but, as you stated, that is always arbitrary. 3mm is a constant. And, 3mm is easy to see and judge. Especially if one is used to using a red circle cb. They see the size of 3mm all the time.

I use a 2 1/2 tip system that I learned from Johnny Ervolino --- which works well when I'm working with players. It's not based as much on tip size, but rather on cue ball reaction and speed. It's still a subjective system, but it keeps things simple and is one that is fairly easy to relate to, which is probably why it was widely used by a lot of players over the years.

The basis is starting with the cb on the spot of a 9-ft table and shooting it straight at the mid-point of the back rail with medium speed.

1 tip: The cue ball rebounds off the mid point of the back rail, down the length of the table and into the corner pocket.

2 tips: The cue ball rebounds off the mid point of the back rail and into the side pocket.

2 1/2 tips: The cue ball rebounds off the mid point of the back rail and hits the side rail mid-way between the side pocket and the back rail.

FranCrimi said:

I use a 2 1/2 tip system that I learned from Johnny Ervolino --- which works well when I'm working with players. It's not based as much on tip size, but rather on cue ball reaction and speed. It's still a subjective system, but it keeps things simple and is one that is fairly easy to relate to, which is probably why it was widely used by a lot of players over the years.

The basis is starting with the cb on the spot of a 9-ft table and shooting it straight at the mid-point of the back rail with medium speed.

1 tip: The cue ball rebounds off the mid point of the back rail, down the length of the table and into the corner pocket.

2 tips: The cue ball rebounds off the mid point of the back rail and into the side pocket.

2 1/2 tips: The cue ball rebounds off the mid point of the back rail and hits the side rail mid-way between the side pocket and the back rail.

Click to expand...

My way is very similar, and combines "tips" with percentage of maximum side spin.

Shooting directly cross table the CB changes angle off the rail as follows:

1/3 of maximum side spin = 1 diamond angle change = "1 tip"
2/3 of maximum side spin = 2 diamonds angle change = "2 tips"
maximum side spin = 3 diamonds angle change = "3 tips"

I believe these angle changes measured cross table are the same as yours measured lengthwise.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

My way is very similar, and combines "tips" with percentage of maximum side spin.

Shooting directly cross table the CB changes angle off the rail as follows:

1/3 of maximum side spin = 1 diamond angle change = "1 tip"
2/3 of maximum side spin = 2 diamonds angle change = "2 tips"
maximum side spin = 3 diamonds angle change = "3 tips"

I believe these angle changes measured cross table are the same as yours measured lengthwise.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

Yes, I remember Johnny showing me that as well in terms of tips and diamonds.

To me...

What Ms. Crimi & PJ said here is what it's all about when there is a need or desire for english.

It's about getting the effect... & conditions change... so that 3mm or 1 tip offset yesterday will not get done today what it did yesterday.

Feel & adaptation vs. a set system.

Maybe it sort of matters & depends where in the country or the world one plays.

In New Orleans the humidity & dew point can change at any hour of the day.

Best to ALL.

PS Sometimes that maximum english requires a swipe stroke with the tip & cue 'clearing'... other times 2 tips will yield 'max' at the right speed.

ENGLISH! said:

To me...

What Ms. Crimi & PJ said here is what it's al about when there is a need or desire for english.

It's about getting the effect... & conditions change... so that 3mm or 1 tip offset yesterday will not get done today what it did yesterday.

Feel & adaptation vs. a set system.

Maybe it sort of matters & depends where in the country or the world one plays.

In New Orleans the humidity & dew point can change at any hour of the day.

Best to ALL.

PS Sometimes that maximum english requires a swipe stroke with the tip & cue 'clearing'... other times 2 tips will yield 'max' at the right speed.

Click to expand...

Of course conditions change. And, if you were an instructor answering in the instructor forum, you would know that. You would also know that whether you use 3mm as a tip of english, or divide the cb up into segments, you still have to adjust your speed for the table. That doesn't change just because of how you measure a tip.

When using 3mm as a tip, all one has to do is see what speed gives one diamond offset for one tip offset. Once that is known, it is simple to get 2, 3, or 1/2 division diamonds when kicking or spinning the cb off the rail.

Your swipe stroke and cue clearing have been shown numerous times to be nothing more than a myth. Advocated by those that don't really know what is actually happening.

Neil said:

Of course conditions change. And, if you were an instructor answering in the instructor forum, you would know that. You would also know that whether you use 3mm as a tip of english, or divide the cb up into segments, you still have to adjust your speed for the table. That doesn't change just because of how you measure a tip.

When using 3mm as a tip, all one has to do is see what speed gives one diamond offset for one tip offset. Once that is known, it is simple to get 2, 3, or 1/2 division diamonds when kicking or spinning the cb off the rail.

Your swipe stroke and cue clearing have been shown numerous times to be nothing more than a myth. Advocated by those that don't really know what is actually happening.

Click to expand...

Well then Earl Strickland is one of those players who "don't really know what is actually happening.' And me as well.

You selectively choose to criticize Rick for not being an instructor here. What about all the other people who post here who aren't instructors? I've never seen a post from you admonishing them. You're so transparent, it's ridiculous.Your continuous condescending tone and baited attacks on Rick are really getting old. If you have a problem with his posts then take it to the management, but stop trying to incite flame wars at every turn --- turning good threads into ego battles.

FranCrimi said:

Well then Earl Strickland is one of those players who "don't really know what is actually happening.' And me as well.

You selectively choose to criticize Rick for not being an instructor here. What about all the other people who post here who aren't instructors? I've never seen a post from you admonishing them. You're so transparent, it's ridiculous.Your continuous condescending tone and baited attacks on Rick are really getting old. If you have a problem with his posts then take it to the management, but stop trying to incite flame wars at every turn --- turning good threads into ego battles.

Click to expand...

Fran, your attacks on me are getting old. And, you have a lot of nerve calling me out for calling someone out for not being an instructor when you have argued that very same point on here many times. Talk about hypocritical!

Funny how you say I am so transparent, yet you fail to see that the only reason Rick even posted was to go against what I stated, and to agree with what you said, even though he clearly didn't understand what you said. The only ones trying to start flame wars on here is you and Rick. And, I am sick of your know it all attitude and defending the wrong everytime just because they gave you some lame compliment.

And, if you think that swiping and cue clearing really have some affect on the shot, then yes, you don't know what you are talking about on that subject. But, go ahead and keep on believing your myths that have been proven false, and then defending them by making condescending post to those that don't agree with you. You do it all the time to any instructor on here that doesn't agree with you to the letter.

FranCrimi said:

Well then Earl Strickland is one of those players who "don't really know what is actually happening.' And me as well.

You selectively choose to criticize Rick for not being an instructor here. What about all the other people who post here who aren't instructors? I've never seen a post from you admonishing them. You're so transparent, it's ridiculous.Your continuous condescending tone and baited attacks on Rick are really getting old. If you have a problem with his posts then take it to the management, but stop trying to incite flame wars at every turn --- turning good threads into ego battles.

Click to expand...

Thanks for 'officially' pointing out the obvious, Fran, but I think most can see the realities.

How does that phrase go that some like to use so much?

You just doesn't know what you don;t know & seems some show it rather often.

Sure one can vary speed but then what about getting the cue ball to where you want to get it. that way is only one option.

Some seem to rather often miss the point & take matters out of context. The subject was defining amounts of english. You & PJ pointed out that it is the end result that is more important than just assigning an arbitrary amount like 13 mm or 3 mm.

I agree with the point that you two made & was just stating such & then merely adding the reason why there is a difference & that sometimes the results for those arbitrary assignments of 3mm or 13mm etc. will not yield the same results & not get the job done.

Some don;y realize that fact & will think that perhaps they miss hit the cue ball when in fact they did not.

There is way more than one way to skin a cat, like varying the amount of english & keeping the speed of the shot the same so the cue ball ends it's run were one wants it to do so.

There are rather many that isolate matters into too small of a discussion point & then forget the bigger picture of the fact that we are playing a complete game & not just isolated drills & tests.

Some also will believe what ever certain individuals say & seem to not be able to think or experiment on their own to make their own determination. Clearing the cue vs not IS different & does yield different results when ALL else is equal.

It seems that some want to dumb down the artistic aspects of actually playing the game. I have 3 years of physics education & would play the game from an athletic players perspective than a science professor that has insufficient data to form an appropriate & true conclusion.

You almost always keep the big picture & end results & actually playing the game in mind...

& that is just one of the reasons why you are one of, if not the best instructor of AZB membership that actually makes posts & whose posts are actually helpful in the big picture of things like actually playing the game.

Best Wishes & Stay Warm & Well.

-----------------------------------

ENGLISH! said:

Thanks for 'officially' pointing out the obvious, Fran, but I think most can see the realities.

How does that phrase go that some like to use so much?

He just doesn't know what he doesn't know & seems to show it rather often.

Sure one can vary speed but then what about getting the cue ball to where you want to get it. HIS way is only one option.

He often misses the point & takes matters out of context. The subject was defining amounts of english. You & PJ pointed out that it is the end result that is more important than just assigning an arbitrary amount like 13 mm or 3 mm.

I agree with the point that you two made & was just stating such & then merely adding the reason why there is a difference & that sometimes the results for those arbitrary assignments of 3mm or 13mm will not be the same& not get the job done.

There is way more than one way to skin a cat, like varying the amount of english & keeping the speed of the shot the same so the cue ball ends it's run were you want.

There are rather many that isolate matters into too small of a discussion point & then forget the bigger picture of the fact that we are playing a complete game & not just isolated drills & tests.

You almost always keep the big picture & end results & actually playing the game in mind & that is just one of the reasons why you are one of, if not the best instructor of AZB membership that actually makes posts & whose posts are actually helpful in the big picture of actually playing the game.

Best Wishes & Stay Warm & Well.

Click to expand...

Rick, you can try and defend your statement all you want, and, as usual, are condescending to me doing it. What you don't know, is that stating the above, you also are saying that Buddy Hall, Jimmy Reid, Mark Wilson, Scott Lee, Randy G. and a whole host of others don't know what they are talking about.

The game is about precision, something you will never get by guessing about where to hit the cb, and then just hoping you came somewhere close to that spot with your
swipe.

Neil said:

Rick, you can try and defend your statement all you want, and, as usual, are condescending to me doing it. What you don't know, is that stating the above, you also are saying that Buddy Hall, Jimmy Reid, Mark Wilson, Scott Lee, Randy G. and a whole host of others don't know what they are talking about.

The game is about precision, something you will never get by guessing about where to hit the cb, and then just hoping you came somewhere close to that spot with your
swipe.

Click to expand...

As usual for you, you misstate matters & twist & distort them & put your own spin on matters to give false impressions & infer things that simply are not so for your own purposes & agenda.

I rarely hit with the cue clearing (swiping) but in some instances it is the best option. I recently commented on Larry Neville doing it in a video of him warming up for a match that was posted on the main forum. Earl, Larry Neville, & Master Instructor & former Top Ten Professional Womens Tour player Fran Crimi, & others. I'm not in bad company.

If anyone says that hitting with 3mm or 6mm of tip offset english will yield the exact same results day to day or even hour to hour here in New Orleans or anywhere that the weather changes rapidly (or even on different aged cloth), then yes I am saying that they do not know what they are talking about.

BUT... you know that that is NOT the case.

Feel is a very important aspect of actually playing the game, at least if one wants to play it well.

Maybe you should stop always telling others what they do not realize & take a look at what you seem to not realize regarding yourself.

Best Wishes to ALL.

ENGLISH! said:

As usual for you, you misstate matters & twist & distort them & put your own spin on matters to give false impressions & infer things that simply are not so for your own purposes & agenda.

I rarely hit with the cue clearing (swiping) but in some instances it is the best option. I recently commented on Larry Neville doing it in a video of him warming up for a match that was posted on the main forum. Earl, Neville, & Master Instructor Fran Crimi, & others. I'm not in bad company.

If anyone says that hitting with 3mm or 6mm of tip offset english will yield the exact same results day to day or even hour to hour here in New Orleans or anywhere that the weather changes rapidly ( or even different aged cloth), then yes I am saying that they do not know what they are talking about.

BUT... you know that that is NOT the case.

Feel is a very important aspect of actually playing the game, at least if one wants to play it well.

Maybe you should stop always telling others what they do not realize & take a look at what you seem to not realize regarding yourself.

Best Wishes to ALL.

Click to expand...

Rick, before you go off on your rants to dispute everything I say on here, maybe you should try a little critical thinking and actually think about what was said.

The game is all about precision. Guessing will only get one in trouble. So, how can one get precision when using english? By knowing just what will happen for a given offset from center. It doesn't matter if the table is slow or fast, high or low humidity. You use those examples as if they mean something in your quest to just dispute me. They don't.

When one knows just what the cb will do with a precise measurement of english, say for example that one tip (3mm) offset will change the path of the cb one diamond on a cross table shot, then they also know that two tips will yield two diamonds, half a tip half a diamond, ect. And they then can be quite precise in placing the cb.

If the table conditions change, one simply observes what the change was. One tip off center now yields 3/4 diamond change. That will be consistent with two tips also now yielding 1 1/2 diamonds change. It stays consistent with the amount of tip offset change even though the initial amount may change. It still yields precision.

When just using a third or two thirds, one is not being precise, and are basically reducing their accuracy to just guessing. Why guess when one can know quite precisely what will happen?

As far as your example of swiping, where is the critical thinking in that? Larry Nevel seemed to do it, so it must have been on purpose and is therefore an effective method? That makes no sense whatsoever. First, one would have to know if Larry even did it on purpose with a reason behind it, or was it just a by product of a not so great stroking action? If with a purpose, what was that purpose, and can the same outcome be achieved without swiping? Does swiping in and of itself do anything that a more normal stroke can not achieve? Tests have shown that it adds nothing to the stroke, yet you want to dispute it without giving any actual facts to dispute it. You have no facts, so you resort to attempting to belittle me instead. Exact same thing Fran did. Both of you, instead of seeing what you could learn, instead resort to belittling me and distorting what was said in a weak attempt to hold to your myths.

You never even bothered to look at any of those questions, just used an example of someone appearing to use it as a legitimate defense for your statement. Which is no defense at all. If that is to be a defense, then make sure you also add in Bustamente's pump action, and Keith's sidearm action as things that all should duplicate.

As far as twisting and distorting things, you are the one that did that. Not me. I stated fact, which you then just had to come along and distort and twist what I stated just to try and belittle me. Which you have been doing to my posts quite frequently. Once again, instead of just trying to help the OP with his question, you felt the need to disregard him, and instead saw another opportunity to go after me. Really sad.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You continually put words in the mouths of others that they did not say & you do it profusely.

There are a lot of IFs in your rant. If if was a skiff, we'd have a boat.

We do NOT play the game in a text book nor in a sterile laboratory.

1 tip = 1 diamond is a generalization & is in & of itself an approximation that almost never is EXACT. It might be 1.2 diamonds one day & .8 diamonds the next day... or hour. Also, each individuals 1 tip may not be exactly what your 1 tip is. It's not that easy to discern 3 mm vs 4mm, nor is it that easy to discern exactly what part of the tip will be making contact with the ball.

Cloth & conditions play a much larger role than you want to let on & seem to almost be trying to hide.

Fran & PJ spoke in a more real & applicable manner as it relates to actually playing the game, as in what amount yields a certain result rather than a certain amount definitely yields X as you & others said.

I agreed with them & that is what I said.

Each individual reading this thread can make their own determinations.

How many threads are going to try to derail today with your foolishness & what seem to be your paranoia?

Best Wishes to ALL.

ENGLISH! said:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You continually put words in the mouths of others that they did not say & you do it profusely.

There are a lot of IFs in your rant. If if was a skiff, we'd have a boat.

We do NOT play the game in a text book nor in a sterile laboratory.

1 tip = 1 diamond is a generalization & is in & of itself an approximation that almost never is EXACT. It might be 1.2 diamonds one day & .8 diamonds the next day... or hour. Also, each individuals 1 tip may not be exactly what your 1 tip is. It's not that easy to discern 3 mm vs 4mm, nor is it that easy to discern exactly what part of the tip will be making contact with the ball.

Cloth & conditions play a much larger role than you want to let on & seem to almost be trying to hide.

Fran & PJ spoke in a more real & applicable manner as it relates to actually playing the game, as in what amount yields a certain result rather than a certain amount definitely yields X as you & others said.

I agreed with them & that is what I said.

Each individual reading this thread can make their own determinations.

How many threads are going to try to derail today with your foolishness & what seem to be your paranoia?

Best Wishes to ALL.

Click to expand...

Again, you have no understanding of what was even stated. And, blame me for what you have done with your derailing. And you still haven't answered the OP question.

ENGLISH! said:

Thanks for 'officially' pointing out the obvious, Fran, but I think most can see the realities.

How does that phrase go that some like to use so much?

You just doesn't know what you don;t know & seems some show it rather often.

Sure one can vary speed but then what about getting the cue ball to where you want to get it. that way is only one option.

Some seem to rather often miss the point & take matters out of context. The subject was defining amounts of english. You & PJ pointed out that it is the end result that is more important than just assigning an arbitrary amount like 13 mm or 3 mm.

I agree with the point that you two made & was just stating such & then merely adding the reason why there is a difference & that sometimes the results for those arbitrary assignments of 3mm or 13mm etc. will not yield the same results & not get the job done.

Some don;y realize that fact & will think that perhaps they miss hit the cue ball when in fact they did not.

There is way more than one way to skin a cat, like varying the amount of english & keeping the speed of the shot the same so the cue ball ends it's run were one wants it to do so.

There are rather many that isolate matters into too small of a discussion point & then forget the bigger picture of the fact that we are playing a complete game & not just isolated drills & tests.

Some also will believe what ever certain individuals say & seem to not be able to think or experiment on their own to make their own determination. Clearing the cue vs not IS different & does yield different results when ALL else is equal.

It seems that some want to dumb down the artistic aspects of actually playing the game. I have 3 years of physics education & would play the game from an athletic players perspective than a science professor that has insufficient data to form an appropriate & true conclusion.

You almost always keep the big picture & end results & actually playing the game in mind...

& that is just one of the reasons why you are one of, if not the best instructor of AZB membership that actually makes posts & whose posts are actually helpful in the big picture of things like actually playing the game.

Best Wishes & Stay Warm & Well.

Click to expand...

Rick, remember that you don't have answer to Neil or anyone here. You get into these flame wars because you keep responding to their attacks. A response or two are understandable, but you have to be the one to cut it off because they won't. Cutting it off doesn't mean they win. It means you are ending it because they are incapable of ending it.

FranCrimi said:

Rick, remember that you don't have answer to Neil or anyone here. You get into these flame wars because you keep responding to their attacks. A response or two are understandable, but you have to be the one to cut it off because they won't. Cutting it off doesn't mean they win. It means you are ending it because they are incapable of ending it.

Click to expand...

And you don't have to keep perpetuating them either by stating things like "their attacks" when the only one attacking is him and you. With you and Rick both, any thing other than total agreement with whatever you say is viewed as an attack. That attitude is what starts the crap. But, don't bother actually answering the OP question, just slam me some more. He asked a specific question to those of you that don't use 3mm as a tip. It still hasn't been answered.