Phenolic cues banned? APA -Bca ?

fish on

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was told that APA(las Vegas tournament 2009) -BCA are not allowing Phenolic cues to be used for breaking because they damage cue balls?
The claim is that they are made of a harder material then cue ball and put dings on cue ball?
Is this a old wives tale or a fact???
 

UWPoolGod1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BCAPL RULE on NO Phenolic TIPS on BREAK Q's

Yeah I thought it was the BCAPL that banned them so far. I don't think I had read anything yet about an APA ban yet. If I am wrong let me know so I can get mine changed out by Nationals in August. Thanks!
 

Da Bank

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was told that APA(las Vegas tournament 2009) -BCA are not allowing Phenolic cues to be used for breaking because they damage cue balls?
The claim is that they are made of a harder material then cue ball and put dings on cue ball?
Is this a old wives tale or a fact???



If I could find an old wife who knew what a phenolic tip was, I'd be amazed ;)


As far as I know, the APA has NOT outlawed phenolic tips. We shall see if the other leagues decide to follow the BCA or if they allow them and try to steal players because of it.

The BCA has outlawed them...

For me personally, this will affect my jump game much more significantly than my break. Guess I'm gonna have to start studying more Efren and less Putnam. :thumbup:
 

Luxury

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The ban is just on Break cues. Not jump cues.

I do not think the APA will be as foolish to ban tons of broke pool players equipment who barely even have enough money to pay league dues and expect them to run out and buy new equipment in order to compete. Not a chance.

No, the APA will simply replace the very rare cue ball that gets damaged would be my guess.
 

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
I was told that APA(las Vegas tournament 2009) -BCA are not allowing Phenolic cues to be used for breaking because they damage cue balls?
The claim is that they are made of a harder material then cue ball and put dings on cue ball?
Is this a old wives tale or a fact???


Are these tips being banned, Yes they are in Washington State for all BCA Events including league.

Do they chip or dent Cue Balls, no they do not and anyone who saids they do is Full Of Shit.

I own a pool room where Phenolic Tips are used every day, they put no more wear on the cue ball than any other tip.

Why are the BCA and other operating franchises banning this tip / Ferrule assembly? What is their real motivation? Why are they openly spreading false information?


So to the BCA I say BULL SHIT, just be honest and tell everyone the real reason the ban is taking place, trust me most players can handle the truth.
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
BCAPL ban on phenolic tips is for BREAK CUES only, *NOT* jump cues

If I could find an old wife who knew what a phenolic tip was, I'd be amazed ;)


As far as I know, the APA has NOT outlawed phenolic tips. We shall see if the other leagues decide to follow the BCA or if they allow them and try to steal players because of it.

The BCA has outlawed them...

For me personally, this will affect my jump game much more significantly than my break. Guess I'm gonna have to start studying more Efren and less Putnam. :thumbup:

Folks:

It's quite amazing how the facts get twisted. BCAPL's ban on phenolic tips is for BREAK CUES ONLY, *NOT* jump cues!

Here it is, straight from the horse's mouth (although I extend apologies to Mark Griffin -- he in no way resembles a horse :D ):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AMbeXO06TZA

Marks says in no uncertain words that phenolic *IS* allowed for jump cues. There it is.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
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Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
The ban is just on Break cues. Not jump cues.

I do not think the APA will be as foolish to ban tons of broke pool players equipment who barely even have enough money to pay league dues and expect them to run out and buy new equipment in order to compete. Not a chance.

No, the APA will simply replace the very rare cue ball that gets damaged would be my guess.

Run out and buy new equipment? LMFAO. It's a TIP. For all those people that bought the BK2 with the phenolic tip, have the tip changed to a Samsara J/B tip. They're $15 plus install. If you bought a one piece phenolic tip/ferrule combo, take your cue to any cue maintenance guy, have him shave off the dome and retip it with a Samsara J/B tip. $15 plus install. Seriously breaking the bank for those players that bought into the hype of the phenolic tip. If you paid $300 for your break cue, you can afford $30 to have it conform to the new rules.
 

crosseyedjoe

Anywhere but here
Silver Member
The ban is just on Break cues. Not jump cues.

I do not think the APA will be as foolish to ban tons of broke pool players equipment who barely even have enough money to pay league dues and expect them to run out and buy new equipment in order to compete. Not a chance.

No, the APA will simply replace the very rare cue ball that gets damaged would be my guess.

most of the leagues i know use someone else tequipment, so i don't think they are inclined to replace them. those leagues aren't playing using prestine table and balls anyway, so i don't see a reason to ban phelonic tip.
 

Luxury

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Run out and buy new equipment? LMFAO. It's a TIP. For all those people that bought the BK2 with the phenolic tip, have the tip changed to a Samsara J/B tip. They're $15 plus install. If you bought a one piece phenolic tip/ferrule combo, take your cue to any cue maintenance guy, have him shave off the dome and retip it with a Samsara J/B tip. $15 plus install. Seriously breaking the bank for those players that bought into the hype of the phenolic tip. If you paid $300 for your break cue, you can afford $30 to have it conform to the new rules.

No. Because a player would want to keep the original tip on for all the REST of the matches they play where the tip IS allowed. Simple as that. Like gambling matches for instance. Nice try though.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
No. Because a player would want to keep the original tip on for all the REST of the matches they play where the tip IS allowed. Simple as that. Like gambling matches for instance. Nice try though.

If you think the phenolic has anything to do with you breaking better, I have some magic break cue oil you should rub on your shaft. It is guaranteed to stiffen the wood fibres and yet makes them more elastic for better spring in the shaft. I charge $30 per ounce, but it is THE BEST thing you can put on a break cue, period.

You're one of the guys that tells us jump cue haters that we need to deal with it and get used to the rules. If you want to play the BCAPL, get the new tip. But, PLEASE, stop being a whiney little biatch about not being able to use your phenolic tip, and how we're screwing with your rights as a player. You broke with leather before, unless you only started playing in the last 5 years. The other guy breaks with leather, too. So, the guy with the best break should win.
 

pooltchr

Prof. Billiard Instructor
Silver Member
If it's really that big of deal, get an extra shaft (you have 2 shafts for your shooting cue, don't you?) Put a leather tip on one of the shafts, and leave the P-tip on the other. Then you can use one if it's allowed, and the leather tip shaft when they aren't.

Like somebody else said, if you can afford a separate jump cue, you can afford to meet the equipment rules.

Jeeshhhh!!!

Steve
 

Porcospino

Registered
Are these tips being banned, Yes they are in Washington State for all BCA Events including league.

Do they chip or dent Cue Balls, no they do not and anyone who saids they do is Full Of Shit.

I own a pool room where Phenolic Tips are used every day, they put no more wear on the cue ball than any other tip.

Why are the BCA and other operating franchises banning this tip / Ferrule assembly? What is their real motivation? Why are they openly spreading false information?


So to the BCA I say BULL SHIT, just be honest and tell everyone the real reason the ban is taking place, trust me most players can handle the truth.

Well, I would have to agree with you on this one. The only Phenolic Tip that can cause damage is the G-10. It is the Clear, Neon Greenish colored one and it's material is actually harder the cue ball. That's why it is dangerous to use. The regular LE Phenolic Tip that most of your players have; Black, Dark Brown, and Carmel colored ones do not damage anything unless you are digging it into the table everytime you break. Here are some test results from a cue maker on the G10 and LE Phenolics;

Legnthwise compressive strength G-10 phenolic(55,000psi) vs. LE phenolic(15,000psi)

Flatwise compressive strength G-10 phenolic(60,000psi) vs. LE phenolic(37,000psi)

Rockwell hardness scale G10 phenolic(110) vs. LE phenolic(105)

The G10 material is what should be banned, not ALL Phenolic tips. Just another reason leagues blow.....
 

ShootingRazbone

He got all the rolls
Silver Member
Run out and buy new equipment? LMFAO. It's a TIP. For all those people that bought the BK2 with the phenolic tip, have the tip changed to a Samsara J/B tip. They're $15 plus install. If you bought a one piece phenolic tip/ferrule combo, take your cue to any cue maintenance guy, have him shave off the dome and retip it with a Samsara J/B tip. $15 plus install. Seriously breaking the bank for those players that bought into the hype of the phenolic tip. If you paid $300 for your break cue, you can afford $30 to have it conform to the new rules.

Seriously...lol... you people amaze me. Go to Youtube.com and search "whats in the case". See how many pros bought into the hype of the phenolic and hear what they say about phenolic. I guess Efren and Souqet bought into it ... geeez what morons they are!

BTW... can I hold 30 dollars please, you seem to have plenty?
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Here's where I disagree with anyone saying G10 does more damage than Canvas or Linen based Phenolic. Anyone that knows physics can give you the formula for kinetic energy - it's half the mass times the square of the velocity. So, the cue mass will be the same. The velocity is what changes. Let's say the cue is going roughly 30MPH. That results in a square of 900. 20MPH would be 400. A simple 10MPH increase will result in 2.25 times the energy hitting the cueball.

If the kinetic energy of the cue is high enough, as long as the tip material doesn't compress, you can damage the cueball. The cueball and object balls are the exact same material. yet the cueball ends up with the most damage. Why? Because it is the only ball being hit by a cue. If I took a material like wood, which isn't as strong as bone, and swung it incredibly fast at someone's leg or head, I could break bones. The material I used isn't as hard as the thing I was hitting, yet the harder material buckled. Everyone quotes hardness scales of phenolic versus G10 versus cueball resin - these numbers are nonsense, as balls do not hit each other at a near zero rate of speed. The cueball is hit by an accelerating cue. The phenolic does not give - if you never have to have the mushroom taken off the tip, it's not compressing. The wood behind the ferrule is bending, so it's compressing instead of the tip.

If I was able to accelerate a NERF bat fast enough, I could shatter glass, yet glass is much stronger than NERF. Why is that? Kinetic energy. The reason the BCAPL has targeted the break cues instead of the jump cues is the rate of speed, or kinetic energy, they can transfer to the cue ball.
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hardness of break tip, threshold for damage to a cue ball, & human ability to deliver

Here's where I disagree with anyone saying G10 does more damage than Canvas or Linen based Phenolic. Anyone that knows physics can give you the formula for kinetic energy - it's half the mass times the square of the velocity. So, the cue mass will be the same. The velocity is what changes. Let's say the cue is going roughly 30MPH. That results in a square of 900. 20MPH would be 400. A simple 10MPH increase will result in 2.25 times the energy hitting the cueball.

If the kinetic energy of the cue is high enough, as long as the tip material doesn't compress, you can damage the cueball. The cueball and object balls are the exact same material. yet the cueball ends up with the most damage. Why? Because it is the only ball being hit by a cue. If I took a material like wood, which isn't as strong as bone, and swung it incredibly fast at someone's leg or head, I could break bones. The material I used isn't as hard as the thing I was hitting, yet the harder material buckled. Everyone quotes hardness scales of phenolic versus G10 versus cueball resin - these numbers are nonsense, as balls do not hit each other at a near zero rate of speed. The cueball is hit by an accelerating cue. The phenolic does not give - if you never have to have the mushroom taken off the tip, it's not compressing. The wood behind the ferrule is bending, so it's compressing instead of the tip.

If I was able to accelerate a NERF bat fast enough, I could shatter glass, yet glass is much stronger than NERF. Why is that? Kinetic energy. The reason the BCAPL has targeted the break cues instead of the jump cues is the rate of speed, or kinetic energy, they can transfer to the cue ball.

Shawn:

Excellent post, but be careful with this argument, for it can be turned around on you. The kinetic energy formula certainly holds true. Yes, if you can accelerate any material fast enough -- regardless of hardness/softness of that material -- you can have that material shatter, penetrate, or damage other harder materials. One can argue that if you can accelerate a normal playing cue with a soft leather tip (e.g. ElkMaster) fast enough, it too can damage a cue ball. I recall there was an episode of Mythbusters (one of my favorite TV shows) whereby the "myth" of a drinking straw being thrust into or through the trunk of a small tree during a tornado was explored. Long summary short, Mythbusters proved this myth "plausible" because they were able to recreate it, but it took an ungodly amount of power to do so -- almost out of the range of human technology's ability to deliver. Yet, by just increasing the hardness of the projectile (i.e. they used wooden coffee stirrers, and then graduated to lengths of piano wire), the amount of energy needed to thrust that projectile into the trunk of the tree diminished dramatically.

Hardness/softness of the projectile material (i.e. break cue tip) does play a factor, in that the threshold for damage against the harder material (cue ball) is questioned as to whether that threshold is within a human being's ability to deliver that amount of kinetic energy. It is well-known that a plain leather tip is soft enough that it raises the threshold [of damage to the cue ball] out of the range of a human being's ability to deliver. At least any pool-playing human of recent human memory. :)

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
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Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Seriously...lol... you people amaze me. Go to Youtube.com and search "whats in the case". See how many pros bought into the hype of the phenolic and hear what they say about phenolic. I guess Efren and Souqet bought into it ... geeez what morons they are!

BTW... can I hold 30 dollars please, you seem to have plenty?

SVB breaks with his playing cue. What's your point? Guys used to crush the rack with leather. It's not like phenolic has up'd the speeds by anything significant - roughly 2%. OOOOOOOOOH. I break them at 22.4MPH instead of 22. Massive change.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Shawn:

Excellent post, but be careful with this argument, for it can be turned around on you. The kinetic energy formula certainly holds true. Yes, if you can accelerate any material fast enough -- regardless of hardness/softness of that material -- you can have that material shatter, penetrate, or damage other harder materials. One can argue that if you can accelerate a normal playing cue with a soft leather tip (e.g. ElkMaster) fast enough, it too can damage a cue ball. I recall there was an episode of Mythbusters (one of my favorite TV shows) whereby the "myth" of a drinking straw being thrust into or through the trunk of a small tree during a tornado was explored. Long summary short, Mythbusters proved this myth "plausible" because they were able to recreate it, but it took an ungodly amount of power to do so -- almost out of the range of human technology's ability to deliver. Yet, by just increasing the hardness of the projectile (i.e. they used wooden coffee stirrers, and then graduated to lengths of piano wire), the amount of energy needed to thrust that projectile into the trunk of the tree diminished dramatically.

Hardness/softness of the projectile material (i.e. break cue tip) does play a factor, in that the threshold for damage against the harder material (cue ball) is questioned as to whether that threshold is within a human being's ability to deliver that amount of kinetic energy. It is well-known that a plain leather tip is soft enough that it raises the threshold [of damage to the cue ball] out of the range of a human being's ability to deliver. At least any pool-playing human of recent human memory. :)

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

Totally agree. But, let's look at leather versus phenolic versus G10. Leather compresses, even slightly when it's rock hard. The other two materials do not. Let's say the hardness scale is 40k for phenolic, 60k for a cueball and 65k for G10. If I hit the material that has a 60k hardness with the 40k material going exceptionally fast, I will damage the harder material. Will G10 damage the cueball more? Yes. But let's not just make the blanket statement that phenolic will not damage a cueball because it isn't as hard as the cueball. That argument is flawed.

BTW, I LOVE Mythbusters. The episode with the penny and the Empire State Building was a classic. Also, where else can you see guys completely atomize a cement truck!
 

poolfoole

Banned
The phenolic tip does jump a hell of a lot better than a leather tip. My break cue has 2 shafts, 1 with a leather tip (breaks a little better) and 1 with a phenolic tip ferrule combo (jumps a lot better). In the APA, they don't let you use jump cues or switch shafts, so this does come into play every once in a while when you're playing 9-ball or even 8-ball and you have to shoot a jump shot.

There's nothing wrong with jump cues either. It's just a cue that's made for a specific shot, just like in golf where they have a different club for every shot. Golfers never get any sh!t when they use a sand wedge to get out of a sand wedge.

If you think the phenolic has anything to do with you breaking better, I have some magic break cue oil you should rub on your shaft. It is guaranteed to stiffen the wood fibres and yet makes them more elastic for better spring in the shaft. I charge $30 per ounce, but it is THE BEST thing you can put on a break cue, period.

You're one of the guys that tells us jump cue haters that we need to deal with it and get used to the rules. If you want to play the BCAPL, get the new tip. But, PLEASE, stop being a whiney little biatch about not being able to use your phenolic tip, and how we're screwing with your rights as a player. You broke with leather before, unless you only started playing in the last 5 years. The other guy breaks with leather, too. So, the guy with the best break should win.
 
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