Speed Control Shot/Difficulty

DrCue'sProtege said:

Yes, I understand its very difficult. But within the last several days, on Accu-Stats videos, I've seen Kim Davenport and Jose Parica have almost the same shot during a match and they both got perfect position. Yet I hosed it up 40 or more times out of 50 tries.


I really believe if I would spend 3-4 hours a day for the next 3-4 weeks working on speed control shots, both simple to medium to hard in terms of difficulty, that my runout percentage would improve.

r/DCP

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if you did that for every thread you start your runout percentage would go up
alot can be said for proper practice time
jmho
icbw

A touch of inside works very nicely here to slow down the cb a bit. Hey, where have I heard that expression before? LOL. Well, in this case it's not for the reason CJ uses it but it works well in this type of shot.

DrCue'sProtege said:

BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER PLEASE DONT ANYBODY SAY THE SHOT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED DIFFERENTLY. LETS ASSUME DUE TO THE LAY OF THE LAND THIS WAS THE ONE AND ONLY WAY THIS SHOULD COULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED.

I was working on this speed control shot earlier today. I had a very difficult time getting the CB back to where it needed to be for perfect shape. Which, of course, is about where the black CB is. There's a slight angle there off the 2B to go downtable for the 3B.

Anyway, I was consistently either long or short. I bet I shot this 50 times and only got really close 3-4 times. Why is this such a difficult shot? Does anybody have any tips or pointers on how to have better speed on a shot like this?

https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/1cc4d.png

r/DCP

p.s. Bob, I tried to get a pic but it was way too big so I just added the link. Sorry buddy.

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I understand, but I hope you played the 2- in the same corner pocket as the 1-, making for not only a larger landing area off the 1- but easier shape on the 3-ball.

practicing speed control for this shot extensively might teach your body the exact force with which you need to hit this particular shot to achieve the final result. theoretically, you might master it to the point where instead of over or under hitting 40 times out of 50 you might get it exactly where you need it 40 times. which would be great.....until you play on a different table with different cloth or different balls or newer cloth or older cloth or dirty balls or....the list goes on...


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and...i know your first statement was to not criticize the shot selection, but rather focus on this particular shot. however, especially with this small margin of error, id be looking to play this ball in a corner pocket, not the side.


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DrCue'sProtege said:

BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER PLEASE DONT ANYBODY SAY THE SHOT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED DIFFERENTLY. LETS ASSUME DUE TO THE LAY OF THE LAND THIS WAS THE ONE AND ONLY WAY THIS SHOULD COULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED.

I was working on this speed control shot earlier today. I had a very difficult time getting the CB back to where it needed to be for perfect shape. Which, of course, is about where the black CB is. There's a slight angle there off the 2B to go downtable for the 3B.

Anyway, I was consistently either long or short. I bet I shot this 50 times and only got really close 3-4 times. Why is this such a difficult shot? Does anybody have any tips or pointers on how to have better speed on a shot like this?

https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/1cc4d.png


r/DCP

p.s. Bob, I tried to get a pic but it was way too big so I just added the link. Sorry buddy.

Click to expand...

There are a lot of variables in this shot and a lot of different ways to get to the spot you show.

The fuller you hit the ball the harder you will have to hit it, so you could simply be hitting it to different areas of the pocket, creating slightly different rebound angles and what Jerry Briesath calls "speed trade off" based on the percentage of the object ball you are connecting with.

I have a playing partner who would shoot this shot completely differently then I would. To lessen variables I would opt for a center ball center of pocket speed control shot. He would use a little top and a little right. Both put the cue ball in the same resting spot. I think his way is harder as he adds variables. He has to allow for a tiny bit of deflection, always hit the same amount of spin AND control the speed. With no spin and a center ball hit I only have to deal with one thing.

This is the kind of thing CJ Wiley talks about with his TOI. He limits the options. He slightly kills the cue ball all the time for a consistent rebound and distance. I am not saying that is a good or bad idea. What I am saying is simply with a center ball hit a slight off hit to the left slows it down and a slight off hit to the right speeds it up. None of these variables are a lot but they all have an impact. CJ's method produces slow and slower.

Basically if your are not consistent in where you hit the cue ball and what part of the pocket you shoot the object ball into, you can't be consistent on where the cue ball stops even if you stroke the cue exactly the same speed each time.

The answer is really simple but no fun. As Tor Lowry says "sticker up the shot and shoot in hundreds of times". Of course if all your mechanics are a little of this may be millions of times.

Bob Jewett said:

Virtual Pool is accurate enough in its modeling that it can be trusted for answers on problems like this.

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Glad to hear you say that - I like it for simple tests. Tracking lines for all the balls that change dynamically as you change aim, spin, speed, etc. make it easy to compare things.

pj
chgo

Bob Jewett said:

For some shots, this kind of trade off occurs. For this particular shot, I don't think there is a trade off available. Over that distance the cue ball will be rolling smoothly on the cloth when it arrives at the object ball for either follow or center ball if you hit the ball at a speed that will not overrun the target position.

If you plan to have the cue ball rolling smoothly on the cloth when it arrives at the object ball, and there is some time to achieve smooth rolling, the height on the cue ball that gives the most consistent speed results is about 60% of the height of the cue ball. That is half way roughly between center ball and immediate smooth rolling. This result is in Ron Shepard's paper on billiard physics and was found by Coriolis about 180 years ago.

As for the variation for full/thin hits that still pocket the object ball, Virtual Pool 4 says that the difference is about one diamond more or less distance if you pocket the ball in the left or right side instead of the center. Accuracy in pocketing the ball is important on this shot.

Virtual Pool is accurate enough in its modeling that it can be trusted for answers on problems like this.

Click to expand...

I agree that the cue ball would be rolling at impact, (unless a drag shot could actually arrive with stun still on the ball), it is a matter of the amount of forward roll remaining. The diagram shows a normal forward roll. I understand your comment about the consistency of the slightly above center as being the most accurate and reliable smooth roll shot. My point was some players always put side spin on every shot. When I said I start with a basic center ball hit vs the slight above center the difference is slight. I will concede the slightly above center may be a better choice. However the trade off is slight and there is an offsetting trade off, also very slight, that the higher or lower you hit from center the more effect unintentional side spin has. Still not saying your assessment is not the best choice, only that the differences are small and other very small differences occur when you move off center. The extremes are apparent as you get to the very top of the cue ball. That is why it is so much harder to hit center off the rail. It is really easy to affect the ball with unintentional side spin when you are at the top. At 60% probably not a huge factor but the speed consistency of slightly above center and center is not a lot either.

My point was mostly about side spin and hitting the ball into the same part of the pocket being the largest factors. You confirm the need for accuracy. If the player is incorporating even small amounts of side spin, intentional or unintentional, to get the placement I believe the shot becomes more difficult and less consistent. As I mentioned, my friend learned to play using side spin for every shot vs. controlling forward roll and or speed. He might literally use top left with more speed to get there. It is hard to tell from the diagram but the rebound angle looks a little tight for a slow rolling cue ball. There are so many variable, like slick cloth vs. older dirty cloth, etc, I think your comments about the above center to produce a smooth rolling cue ball and then center of the pocket are the dominant factors, assuming the above center hit is accurately hit along the vertical center line of the cue ball. All of that also assumes that exact hit produces the exact final resting point the shooter is looking for. If the natural angle won't get it there all bets are off. Just my observations.

DrCue'sProtege said:

BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER PLEASE DONT ANYBODY SAY THE SHOT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED DIFFERENTLY. LETS ASSUME DUE TO THE LAY OF THE LAND THIS WAS THE ONE AND ONLY WAY THIS SHOULD COULD HAVE BEEN PLAYED.

I was working on this speed control shot earlier today. I had a very difficult time getting the CB back to where it needed to be for perfect shape. Which, of course, is about where the black CB is. There's a slight angle there off the 2B to go downtable for the 3B.

Anyway, I was consistently either long or short. I bet I shot this 50 times and only got really close 3-4 times. Why is this such a difficult shot? Does anybody have any tips or pointers on how to have better speed on a shot like this?

https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/1cc4d.png


r/DCP

p.s. Bob, I tried to get a pic but it was way too big so I just added the link. Sorry buddy.

Click to expand...

I was doing my morning warm up and I had a thought for you. Bert Kinister has a shot he put on his first video the 60 minute workout years ago. It is his "stroke builder" shot. It points out all the variables with respect to speed control, aim and accuracy. If you can execute this shot reliably you can execute shots with an angle reliably. This shot will tell you exactly what you are doing wrong each time.

Shot is straight down the long rail a ball or two off the long rail Object ball is 2 diamonds from the pocket at one end and cue ball 2 diamonds off at the other end.
The object is to hit the object ball with a pure center ball it with the exact speed necessary for the slide to wear off just in front of the object all so it develops just enough forward roll to move forward and exactly replace the object ball. It is not a stop shot, it is a slight stun forward shot.

If the cue ball stops or back up you hit too low or too hard. If it rolls too far forward too high or too hard. If the cue ball moves left you missed the pure hit to the left. If it moves right you missed the pure shot to the right. This is not an easy exercise. What it does do is give you feed back as to what you do wrong. If you can't be consistent on a straight in shot you won't be consistent on any other shot either. This drill will show you what your weaknesses are so you can work on them.

Your issue may be how hard you hit the cue ball but it is just as likely to be how accurately you hit it each time. Non-instructor, fellow student of the game thoughts.

Ways to handle pace dynamics

One thing I notice some pros do on shots like this is apply inside side. A naturally rolling ball when contacting an object ball at a cut angle acquires outside english. Depending on the angle it goes into a rail after contact, the english will be either check or running, either speeding up or slowing down the cue ball. By applying inside side the cue ball finds itself never acquiring the side because the contact english goes in the other direction. The result is a cue ball leaving contact with no english. On the shot in question the first rail would no longer have outside english widening the angle and speeding up the ball. If the angle needs to be wider, pros often still use the inside cancelling english and hit the ball lower. The result may be more of a stun run through. By cancelling the normally acquired english the speed off the cushion is more predictably the same as if a cue had hit it into the rail. The only adjustment needed is based on the momentum change due to fullness of contact. A naturally rolling ball needs to also consider the impact of the outside acquired english. If the outside side checks the ball the shooter needs to compensate by hitting harder to get the same distance as a ball running naturally into the cushion. Hitting harder causes the cue ball to slide wider along the tangent line, changing the angle.

There was a recent post in the forums with a link to Ronnie O’Sullivans fastest 147. The video was edited to include the number of strokes and their timing plus a cue ball picture showing the contact point on the ball. Most shots used vertical center cueing. The post was about the use of the vertical. A closer look at the post showed Ronnie on occasion swinging the ball off 2 or 3 cushions using draw. A couple caught my eye where he used some inside english. One I remember also used follow with a touch of inside, to cancel acquired english. The net result is that the first rail contact has no acquired side. On the draw shots where he went off two cushions the top rail was first. Without the inside side the cue ball would acquire outside side which would be running based on the draw angle created. The first rail contact would widen the angle and the angle into the second rail would contact the ball closer to the end rail and send the ball across the table at a more direct angle towards the opposite side rails. By using inside to negate the outside side, the first rail contact is not widened. English is now only acquired from the rail contact. The second rail is contacted nearer the side pocket and then the angle is widened because of the rail acquired side. That sends the cue ball more up the same side of the table as the end rail contact. This is all dependent on the amount of draw applied. In general by not having an initial widening off the first rail due to running english the cue ball path will travel more up the table compared to the across travel of the running side shot.

On the shot in question try making your swing with the entire cueing arm. This slows down the entire shot. The formula for momentum is p=mv, where p=momentum. By using the entire arm you increase mass. Keep the hand quiet and feel the mass of the cue and arm combined in the swing. Keep the shoulder out of the shot, that would start adding body mass behind the shot. Just adding arm mass lets you slow velocity. The right amount of inside is the amount needed to get a non-spin cue ball off contact. Use a striped ball so you can see that just a bit of inside is needed to cancel contact generated acquired english. A naturally rolling cue ball will have consistent rebound speed off the rail. Your mind will sense the impact that the cue ball will experience with that entire mass meeting the ball. Use just enough inside side to remove the running side and you should have a pretty good handle on the delivery speed within a few shots. If you need to widen the angle slightly hit slightly lower on the cue ball. The lower hit brings the braking power of skid and gravity more into play. The combination of removing the running side plus the addition of skid, both slow the ball travel comparatively. The sensitivity of the pace goes down as a result. Hope this helps with the learning curve.