fundamentel tchnique advice needed

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
KMRUNOUT said:
I don't know if this is anything like your problem. I am 6'2", with long arms. I have experienced a long standing issue of having my arm too close to my body so that my hand is actually under my chest. I looked at other people, and realized that a big part of my problem is that I had my shoulders too parallel to the table.

See if maybe this is an issue for you too. All the "textbook" stances and strokes I see involve (for right handed players) having the left shoulder low and the right shoulder high. This does all sorts of good things. One is that it allows you to not have to have your elbow so high when you get low on the cue. A high elbow robs your stroke of power and, for lack of a better term, "ease". With a low left shoulder and a high right shoulder, you can pretty much have your elbow at the same height as your shoulder, maybe only a little higher. For me, this makes my stroke not only ridiculously straight, but also crazy stong and effortless.

Give it a shot, so to speak, if you think this might be it.

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...
I think the "jutting shoulder and hip" problems are pretty common, and there are various things to try, separately and in combination. I raise my back shoulder and rotate my shoulders to get the back shoulder in line, and also move my elbow away from my body to clear my hip (and turn my head a little more to accommodate). I'll also bend my legs when necessary, especially to get lower for longer shots.

pj
chgo
 
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TATE

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
I agree that squatting down with somewhat bent knees helps taller players, as long as the weight stays centered between your feet, similar to sitting propped up on the edge of a bar stool. You should be able to lift your bridge hand easily from your stance. This creates a stable base and is also easy on the back.

The critical thing about the stance is to create a stable platform for the stroke and a rock steady head position. The hips and torso need to be in a position that does not interfere with any aspect of the stroke, backswing to complete follow through. This is easy to figure out. Do some straight long draw shots with the OB ball about 3' from the pocket and CB 3' from the OB. If you can consistently make the OB and draw straight back, your stroke is fine. I had to practice this a lot when I determined my stroke was flawed on high power shots.
 
mjantti

mjantti

Enjoying life
Silver Member
I'm 6'6" and I've always had bent knees. I never felt really solid with bent knees. After playing for almost 25 years, I finally took a lesson from a respectable coach and he was able to fix my stance in a way that I can finally straighten my back leg which locks my whole stance solid. Now I do have some lower back exercise to do, but probably more because of the changes, not that I'd be more awkwardly positioned. Who agrees with me that players over 6' have to work more on their feet and stance to create a solid foundation? I assume we also need to be in better shape to avoid muscle strains. Shorter guys just bend over any way they want...
 
buckshotshoey

buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There was a way the europeans teach there players to approach the table. It was on www.pat-billiard.org. The site is down right now but ill try to explain. Find the balance point of your cue and hold it in your shooting hand. Balanced so it is parallel with the ground. Relax you hand and arm. The cue will naturally point in a cross angle to your body. That is the body to cue angle you should use when shooting. Hard to explain without the video, but it did help with my alignment issue.
 
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N

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
buckshotshoey said:
There was a way the europeans teach there players to approach the table. It was on www.pat-billiard.org. The site is down right now but ill try to explain. Find the balance point of your cue and hold it in your shooting hand. Balanced so it is parallel with the ground. Relax you hand and arm. The cue will naturally point in a cross angle to your body. That is the body to cue angle you should use when shooting. Hard to explain without the video, but it did help with my alignment issue.
Click to expand...


That's the same way Jimmy Reid taught it. It was on his videos, is probably on his site also.
 
One Pocket John

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
buckshotshoey said:
There was a way the europeans teach there players to approach the table. It was on www.pat-billiard.org. The site is down right now but ill try to explain. Find the balance point of your cue and hold it in your shooting hand. Balanced so it is parallel with the ground. Relax you hand and arm. The cue will naturally point in a cross angle to your body. That is the body to cue angle you should use when shooting. Hard to explain without the video, but it did help with my alignment issue.
Click to expand...

Good post.

This may help the OP also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6CZOwknf5c&list=PLdCfnbGD70QVXp9EqUTc82kxk4JY2TS58

Bert Kinisters video "Advanced Fundamentals" is also worth watching.

Good luck and stay with it. :)

John
 
Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
hi all.

SO many good responses. it's a lot to take in and test.

I have tried several of the advices. i find there is truth in each one of them, and what helps for one shot/position doesn't feel natural for a other shot.

I really find it important to still have everything feel loose and easy.

When i use a more squared snooker stance , i now concentrate on the last 2-3inches of bending that my arm stays inwards and i have to elevate my elbow higher then i used to, till its a max height. i gives me a solid straight feel and stroke but it feels like someone poor concrete over me and i don't feel like being able to generate speed/power if needed. now most shot's don't ask this, but it doesn't feel natural and having played snooker before, i really wanted to learn to play with a poolstance and not a snookerstance on a pooltable (if that makes sense)

Then the pool stance. moving the right shoulder up/back and "blocking" the shoulder outwards, but letting my elbow loose and inwards is helping, but my feet placement is still a problem (the angle between my hip and cue). Depending on how low i get on the shot, i feel like i should use different angles (or i should put my left foot more or less forward). i like to play some shots with a higher body stance (where the angle is the hardest factor to evaluate or when i need to generate cue action, like DTL suggested) but i need a low stance when i'm on long straight in shots and using the same feet placement isn't giving the same results.

I think i got some very good advice and i need to continue to test all the idea's. it's a lot to take in and play around with it, but at least you have given me enough material to play with.

@ buckshotshoe: thanks, i'll check it out
@runner : thanks, i'm already shooting straighter so its helping, but i need to find a system that works all the time, so i might need to tweak it out a bit more
@mjantti: so true that shorter guys have easy to find a stance !! i check diana and kamila who have naturally the perfect height for a pooltable. i just can't use that stance. (a fun fact.... when i play on my knees and i have the straightest shot there is.) it is 100% straight, but do you see me bending down on my knees on every shot. i already play with a glove, if i do that, i'll be the (earl strickland)³ .
@kmrunout : jups, like i posted in the beginning, a high elbow feels awkward.

I have tried the bending the knees, but i don't feel comfortable with it. it doesn't feel "locked in place" like someone posted here. maybe i need to contact chris henry for some body placement coaching.

I checked niels feyen etc and one i'm playing now with a very big gap between both feet aka left feet 4feet or something in front of the right feet. the bigger the gap, the lower my body will be, but that makes my hip turn more, and my albow go inwards, so that isn't perfect either.

It's sucks to be big and skinny ! but i'll get there.


EDIT; i almost forgot to post. someone adviced me to put my right-hand thumb above my cue to keep it straight, and that helps 100% of the time !! but i can't bring my backhand back or i break my thumb. i now have small dents in my leather finish of my nail getting pushed into the cue on backswings.... as soon as i turn my thumb to the side of the cue like normal it changes something and it's not 100% of the times straight. weird.... i need to experiment more on what that means. now i bend down my thumb on my cue and once i'm in position and move my thumb and start my practice swings, and that works ok'ish.
 
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Poolmanis

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi. I had similar feelings really long time. Nowadays I line up different and I think it works at least for me.

I try line my shooting arm fist to aiming line while I stand up. My body and head is somewhat left side of that. I don't put my head at line. It drops to line naturally when I go down to shot. That way I get elbow and fist to right way naturally and I don't need linger. Also I do bend my both knees most of time nowadays but because Rheumatism.
Not really schoolbook way but it really helped me.
I'm 180cm(6ft) long.
Hard to describe this by text and not my mother language..
Main trick is to keep head left until you are down to a shot.

Edit: This is for right handed players...
 
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chevybob20

chevybob20

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don't go so low. Stand taller and utilize your natural aim.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
 
Poolmanis

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Poolmanis said:
Hi. I had similar feelings really long time. Nowadays I line up different and I think it works at least for me.

I try line my shooting arm fist to aiming line while I stand up. My body and head is somewhat left side of that. I don't put my head at line. It drops to line naturally when I go down to shot. That way I get elbow and fist to right way naturally and I don't need linger. Also I do bend my both knees most of time nowadays but because Rheumatism.
Not really schoolbook way but it really helped me.
I'm 180cm(6ft) long.
Hard to describe this by text and not my mother language..
Main trick is to keep head left until you are down to a shot.

Edit: This is for right handed players...
Click to expand...

I did search my videos if you could see what i say there and noticed my bank shot drill have nice camera angle so you could see how i go for shot.

First I look shot at right line then i move slightly to left side of shot. I lock on aim line still but i "know" i am little left side of shot. Finally when i go down my head get back on line. Elbow and fist are nicely at line too(most of times.. nobody can get it totally right every time).

Here is link to that about 2 minute vid if you wanna check:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnImvb9BZ24
 
Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The old chicken wing...

There are a few causes;

One is that the hip on the shooting side is in the way. If you have this issue you need to get the hip out of the way either by consciously sticking your hip in the other direction whilst getting down. Another way is to focus on where your back foot is in relation to the line of aim. Whilst practicing place the back foot pointing directly down the line of aim using the instep as a guide. When down it will be uncomfortable around the ankle and shins so whilst trying to keep the foot in the same place, angle it outwards until it feels comfortable. Once comfy, notice where the foot is placed on the line of aim and try to use this placement every shot if possible.

Another reason is the shoulders are too square to the shot. This is more common in cross eye dominant players but crops up in any player. Best way to practice correcting this issue is to not drop straight down when ready. Don't move directly down, but reach out with the bridge hand and turn the shoulders, waist and hips to allow the bridge to reach right out. Then drop straight down whilst reaching. Notice the shoulders aren't as square to the shot. Once practiced you can start practicing the slight twist of shoulders, waist and hips whilst simultaneously dropping down. This twist also gives clearance at the hip and can also be used to rectify the above dilemma. The twist isn't huge, and shouldn't be noticeable to your average pool players if done smoothly but it can make the world of difference.

These are just two common reasons for the chicken wing. There are others but from what I've read I hope either of the above rectify your issue.
 
Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
Pidge the last option sounds interesting. A griend sugested it to me too yesterday and he's tall
Poolmanis: i have tried that technique. It helps but i am crosseyed dominance ( i even believe my eye dominance changes). So i need to move my head so much sideways it feels bad


It's silly how such a easy looking move can be so hard to master. All joking asside i've been testing and searching for 2 years and learned a lot and getting closer but still so far.
 
Z

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Solartje said:
Pidge the last option sounds interesting. A griend sugested it to me too yesterday and he's tall
Poolmanis: i have tried that technique. It helps but i am crosseyed dominance ( i even believe my eye dominance changes). So i need to move my head so much sideways it feels bad


It's silly how such a easy looking move can be so hard to master. All joking asside i've been testing and searching for 2 years and learned a lot and getting closer but still so far.
Click to expand...

i think i have a similar problem to yours.as i'm taking my practice strokes on shots my elbow starts shifting slightly to my right causing a side to side upper-arm movement which causes the cue to go offline.i thought i fixed this issue about a week ago with a change in my initial alignment/back foot position but unfortunately i didn't.pidge has given you some good advice by telling you to rotate your shoulders more.i'm no expert but you can also try to bring your bridge-arm shoulder very close to your cheek (maybe even touching it) and down to the table as much as possible.this in turn will bring your shooting arm higher & further back behind the head.this might stop your elbow issues but again im not an expert
 
chefjeff

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
larry732 said:
I am a BCA instructor and an old time road player and teach privately in CT. The problem your having is hard to correct because you want to be so low in your stance. Shoulder , arm and hand should be in the same plane, working together. When bending so low when you about a foot above the shaft your right shoulder now sticks out and your hand moves closer to your body, bringing everything out of line. As Tate suggested go more into a snooker stance, meaning facing the target more and instead of bending lower, try squatting the last few inches. Hope this helps, N.Y.Larry
Click to expand...

I first bend at the waist to go partway down, keeping everything in line.

Then, as you suggested here, after getting my tip into position, I look up at the o/b for the last time, confirm everything, then bend at the knees just a bit for my final position.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Pidge said:
The old chicken wing...

There are a few causes;

One is that the hip on the shooting side is in the way. If you have this issue you need to get the hip out of the way either by consciously sticking your hip in the other direction whilst getting down. Another way is to focus on where your back foot is in relation to the line of aim. Whilst practicing place the back foot pointing directly down the line of aim using the instep as a guide. When down it will be uncomfortable around the ankle and shins so whilst trying to keep the foot in the same place, angle it outwards until it feels comfortable. Once comfy, notice where the foot is placed on the line of aim and try to use this placement every shot if possible.

Another reason is the shoulders are too square to the shot. This is more common in cross eye dominant players but crops up in any player. Best way to practice correcting this issue is to not drop straight down when ready. Don't move directly down, but reach out with the bridge hand and turn the shoulders, waist and hips to allow the bridge to reach right out. Then drop straight down whilst reaching. Notice the shoulders aren't as square to the shot. Once practiced you can start practicing the slight twist of shoulders, waist and hips whilst simultaneously dropping down. This twist also gives clearance at the hip and can also be used to rectify the above dilemma. The twist isn't huge, and shouldn't be noticeable to your average pool players if done smoothly but it can make the world of difference.

These are just two common reasons for the chicken wing. There are others but from what I've read I hope either of the above rectify your issue.
Click to expand...
I've done both of these things to my stance, and it has helped a lot.

Besides moving my hips out of the way and turning my shoulders more parallel with the cue, I also moved my front foot a little closer to the cue - this helped take some of the "twist" out of the new stance, making it more comfortable.

Now I don't subconsciously "fear" hitting my hip with my back hand and feel more confident in the straightness of my stroke.

pj
chgo
 
Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
I've done both of these things to my stance, and it has helped a lot.

Besides moving my hips out of the way and turning my shoulders more parallel with the cue, I also moved my front foot a little closer to the cue - this helped take some of the "twist" out of the new stance, making it more comfortable.

Now I don't subconsciously "fear" hitting my hip with my back hand and feel more confident in the straightness of my stroke.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
The twist can be very uncomfortable after a couple of hours and you definitely feel it the day after but it's necessary IMO in lower stances. It varies from player to player and some can get away with hardly any twist. I twist very little so I guess I'm one of the lucky ones :)

You touched on a very good point about subconsciously fearing the hip. It's a real problem for some players and because it's a subconscious thing they don't realise that's why they have an arc in their stroke.
 
Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
z0nt0n3r said:
i think i have a similar problem to yours.as i'm taking my practice strokes on shots my elbow starts shifting slightly to my right causing a side to side upper-arm movement which causes the cue to go offline.i thought i fixed this issue about a week ago with a change in my initial alignment/back foot position but unfortunately i didn't.pidge has given you some good advice by telling you to rotate your shoulders more.i'm no expert but you can also try to bring your bridge-arm shoulder very close to your cheek (maybe even touching it) and down to the table as much as possible.this in turn will bring your shooting arm higher & further back behind the head.this might stop your elbow issues but again im not an expert
Click to expand...

i haven't tried that last piece of advice , but it could be part of the solution. i have a very loose and bend bridge arm where most top players seem to have it fully stretched.


To give some update: i'm incorporating several of the advices (don't go so low, turn my hips, left foot more forward, move elbow higher, turn right shoulder etc) that have been given and i'm slowly getting there. there isn't one single quick solution. So i'm going forward and improving, but the downside is, that it's almost impossible to have it all ligned up perfectly every time, because one feet just 1 cm more to the left of forward, your hip 2° more twisted, etc and you are offline again. the rail a bit in the way and you can't place your feet the same way, etc.. I can't believe a human can align up 100% perfect every single time, but i guess that isn't needed as we don't play on russian piramid pockets.

Now i'm noticing my body automatically subconsciously adapts to imperfections over time (i'm always a diesel in tournaments. i need 4-5 matches before i get any decent playing level). by that i mean, where in the first half hour i need to turn my back arm a little inwards after an hour it autocorrects and if i do the same pre-shot routine, i'm over -inward-ing (lol at that word) my arm.

i think there is no need to be 100% every time and as i can not see my backarm when i'm down , i needed to find a way to feel ! if i need to do any correction.



I tried several things, i found one routine that seems to help me to very quicly see if i'm off: and that's doing some quick , loose , with long backwards movement warming up strokes (like if i would smash the sh*t out of the rack and break at 50pmh) . the further and quicker i do it, the bigger imperfections in the alignment get visible. thats when i make my slight changes in every stroke (as i don't know if my arm is outwards, or inwards, or crooked ) it can take 1 warmup or 10 warmup strokes, but if the stroke is straight at that speed, you know its 100% spot on, and you can slow the speed and distance down and concentrate on the focusing of the aiming spot. I can't do long training sessions yet because of health, but after an hour i see my ligning-up warmup strokes are go from 10 in the first balls to maybe one or two.

One sidenote i made myself. if i see that i need to correct A LOT during the warmup, it's best to stand up again and redo it all. Too big corrections make for unnatural stances, that will induce errors. so you can only adapt "so much"

I play on 3.5" pockets (with reducers), so that helps me a lot with the feedback i need for a perfect stroke and shot making. it's hard to see on 5" pockets how much off center you are

That's my experience at the moment. i will update if i have news, and i hope other who have the same problem will be helped by it too, as i know every big player has this problem. (i recently checked 3 big players , and each had a different solution. one spreads his leg as much as possible and bend his kneeds at 90° angle, in an almost karate stand (looks like a crab and that's how he got his nickname), another one bends his knees as much as possible and the other one rotates his full backarm/head, everything 30° outwards, like if he would be perfectly straight but standing on an angled flore 30° to the right. they all play very good pool, but i call it "tricks" and i know from experience "tricks" will hold you back at a certain level.
 
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