Wrist, yea, but what about the hand?

Gerry said:

I was reading the extensive thread about the wrist in the pool stroke. I realized I pretty much never think about my wrist, but I do pay very much attention to my hand. I go thru different sessions of keeping my entire hand closed around the cue thru the shot, and then I will find myself opening/closing my hand depending on the shot (watch SVB). Lately, I have been cradling the cue in the middle 2 fingers/thumb for a very light grip. I have played well using all 3 ways, and I am currently searching which works best for 3C. I have found the lighter grip/open hand that snaps shut at the ball gives me the most action on the CB, while a closed grip is more accurate but less powerful.

So, I think what I need to come up with is a way to use all 3 when needed without sharking myself!

How do you grip the cue? and do you think about it?

have fun,

G.

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G.

You got it...but you are going to hear a certain word... 'nonsense'.

I would suggest that you do not listen to that word.

Make your own determinations & do what works best for you.

Do not let that one word affect your game or hold you back.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS I would clarify one word that you use & that is 'powerful'. I would say that most all connections to the cue can be powerful but they then require a different type or level of stroke to get 'power'. I would guess that one needs more 'power' in 3 cushion billiards than most pool games. I can get all the power that I normally need with just the wrist & fingers with very little if any real arm swing. What I've found is that a loose connection is more conducive to spinning & moving the ball while a more firm connection hones accuracy & hold slow control of the ball. Experiment & make your own determinations. Play Well.

Gerry said:

I have found the lighter grip/open hand that snaps shut at the ball gives me the most action on the CB, while a closed grip is more accurate but less powerful.

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"Snapping" the grip shut moves the wrist forward - that's how you get more power with it. But as you say, it's less accurate, which is the worst thing it can be. I think it's probably easier to stay online by moving the wrist purposely, but that can be inaccurate too.

You get more action with less effort if you hit the CB accurately. I'd work on that first - maybe you'll find you don't need the other techniques.

pj
chgo

I pay a lot of attention to my grip and wrist because the arthritis in my neck requires a somewhat non-traditional stance.

My grip is a V-grip with my thumb pointing straight down at the ground. I only use my index finger to support the weight of the cue. If I use other fingers they cause me to "cup" my wrist/hand which throws the cue off-line.

In addition to keeping the cue delivery straight, the other advantage is that it promotes having a very controllable wrist because it's on a "straight hinge." I can loosen or tighten the action of my wrist without it changing the delivery of my stroke.

Patrick Johnson said:

"Snapping" the grip shut moves the wrist forward - that's how you get more power with it. But as you say, it's less accurate, which is the worst thing it can be. I think it's probably easier to stay online by moving the wrist purposely, but that can be inaccurate too.

You get more action with less effort if you hit the CB accurately. I'd work on that first - maybe you'll find you don't need the other techniques.

pj
chgo

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Patrick, we shall have to disagree on this one.

Using your wrist during a pool stroke does not have to be less accurate (though it can be if not incorporated properly). I know the idea is to reduce the number of moving parts but it's like saying a stroke where you don't move your elbow is more accurate -- sure, but all you can do is bunt. Without the wrist a stroke is just a little more than bunt. If you want to be able to "stroke" the ball I believe the wrist is essential and does not depreciate accuracy.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa said:

Patrick, we shall have to disagree on this one.

Using your wrist during a pool stroke does not have to be less accurate (though it can be if not incorporated properly). I know the idea is to reduce the number of moving parts but it's like saying a stroke where you don't move your elbow is more accurate -- sure, but all you can do is bunt. Without the wrist a stroke is just a little more than bunt. If you want to be able to "stroke" the ball I believe the wrist is essential and does not depreciate accuracy.

Lou Figueroa

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I think we agree, Lou. I use my wrist too, just not by clenching my grip.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

I think we agree, Lou. I use my wrist too, just not by clenching my grip.

pj
chgo

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OK, well, "clenching" the grip is a bit of a pejorative way to describe it but during the forward movement of the cue it's gonna close up no matter how you describe it.

Lou Figueroa
whose grip
gently envelops
the cue

Just try recording yourself with some video , to see if your cue is going offline, at anywhere in the stroke.

A good frontal video will tell you a good story in 5 minutes. Then put the video in Movie Maker, run it at slower speeds & see what happens.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it....

.....................

lfigueroa said:

OK, well, "clenching" the grip is a bit of a pejorative way to describe it but during the forward movement of the cue it's gonna close up no matter how you describe it.

Lou Figueroa
whose grip
gently envelops
the cue

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I was responding to this:

"I have found the lighter grip/open hand that snaps shut at the ball gives me the most action on the CB"

...not to the general idea of closing the hand.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

I was responding to this:

"I have found the lighter grip/open hand that snaps shut at the ball gives me the most action on the CB"

...not to the general idea of closing the hand.

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"Snaps shut" is certainly not the best choice of words, but I think I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I do it all the time. I think it's the very best way to get control of the CB and keep it in the center of the table.

If you hold the stick very lightly like I do, a slight squeeze of the fingers into the palm creates a downturn of the tip toward the cloth and adds a little velocity at the same time. This gives a nice, crisp feeling to the stroke without having to use as much forearm motion to get the same effect. Rather than "adding more moving parts", you are simply using the moving parts that are already there in a more controlled and accurate manner. Less force, less forward movement of the hand (shorter forearm swing), movement is more confined to the smaller bones of the wrist and fingers - all of these things just make more sense to me mechanically.

The only time I don't use a stroke like this is when I have to power the ball, or use a lot of top spin to follow the ball around the table. These are things I don't really care about because they aren't important parts of my chosen game, but when I do have to really stroke the ball, these hand/finger movements are already grooved into my basic stroke, so I still get more speed without having to use more biceps contraction and elbow movement, which to me, are more likely to throw the cue off line.

I think Lou and I are on the same page here... or I'm talking about something entirely different.

Gerry, This is all just opinion personal to me and what I've experimented with.

When I got back into playing 3C my mentor and the reason I came back told me a 3C stroke is different than pool. The 3C stroke is more of an arm stroke that wrist. Being someone to follow instruction rather than find ways to disagree and keep on keeping on I went with the idea. This stroke I believe is where I picked up an elbow drop.

After his passing I took lessons from primarily Pool Instructors who disagreed with the arm stroke notion and I broke free of it to some degree. I still don't have much wrist action although. In my opinion adding wrist adds to the complexity as it relates to timing. I can't dance either. I do sometimes use my wrist although rare. I mostly use it on extreme follow shots. Seems like it works well here for me.

One day I was screwing around after reading a comment from Lassiter who allegedly said "Loose is good, looser is better." I went to the table and holding the cue with only my index finger keeping the cue from falling to the floor. I was amazed at the action I got with this but playing with this non-grip was terrible in the accuracy dept. A few years earlier I asked my mentor about his stroke. I notice he would open up his hand at impact. He simply replied "well I guess you just learned something." Remembering this, I moved down this road and more or less have stayed there. I've also played a lot with the stroke slip. Basically throwing the cue. Letting go completely. Pretty Interesting.

Regarding the middle 2 finger pressure. IMO it locks the wrist. Not saying that's bad, I just feel it does. I use it sometimes for a jab stroke rather than clinching the cue at impact. On rare occasions I'll clinch to shorten the angle. The wrist lock may be because my hands are small.

Regarding Power in 3C. Yes there's shots that require a powerful stroke. No different than pool. There's one thing that's quite surprising when you watch professional 3C players "in person". That's the delicacy with which they hit the ball. 95% or more of the shots are nice, slow smooth strokes. Its all in the thinner hits and proper spin. And of course superior stroke.

Its too bad the live streams and recordings never show the strokes.

Experiment and have fun. There's no easy road and few absolutes. But the fast lane is to move back to basic fundamentals, get that down, then work on developing your style. Refer back to fundamentals as a check.

Sloppy Pockets said:

"Snaps shut" is certainly not the best choice of words, but I think I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I do it all the time. I think it's the very best way to get control of the CB and keep it in the center of the table.

If you hold the stick very lightly like I do, a slight squeeze of the fingers into the palm creates a downturn of the tip toward the cloth and adds a little velocity at the same time. This gives a nice, crisp feeling to the stroke without having to use as much forearm motion to get the same effect. Rather than "adding more moving parts", you are simply using the moving parts that are already there in a more controlled and accurate manner. Less force, less forward movement of the hand (shorter forearm swing), movement is more confined to the smaller bones of the wrist and fingers - all of these things just make more sense to me mechanically.

The only time I don't use a stroke like this is when I have to power the ball, or use a lot of top spin to follow the ball around the table. These are things I don't really care about because they aren't important parts of my chosen game, but when I do have to really stroke the ball, these hand/finger movements are already grooved into my basic stroke, so I still get more speed without having to use more biceps contraction and elbow movement, which to me, are more likely to throw the cue off line.

I think Lou and I are on the same page here... or I'm talking about something entirely different.

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I would agree that "snaps shut" is a poor choice of words but I do think wrist movement during the stroke is essential to a creating a stroke that can effectively move the CB around. At least for me. And in that wrist motion I think there is a backwards motion of the wrist that opens up the grip a bit and a forward motion that, depending on the speed of the stroke, could be described as snapping the grip closed.

Lou Figueroa

lfigueroa said:

I would agree that "snaps shut" is a poor choice of words but I do think wrist movement during the stroke is essential to a creating a stroke that can effectively move the CB around. At least for me. And in that wrist motion I think there is a backwards motion of the wrist that opens up the grip a bit and a forward motion that, depending on the speed of the stroke, could be described as snapping the grip closed.

Lou Figueroa

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I think there's a difference between allowing the fingers to curl passively around the butt as the wrist moves forward and actively gripping the cue during that motion. Active gripping tends to accelerate the wrist movement, but is prone to sideways movement. I suppose it can be controlled with practice...

pj
chgo

FWIW: A friend of mine, when playing in is first pro snooker event a few years back with Higgins, Williams etc, was blown away by how loose all their hands and grips appeared. Up close in real life is more informative than watching them on TV.

I guess a soft relaxed hand tends to hang vertically, perhaps that is part of it. Perhaps it helps with developing touch. Perhaps it's just anecdotal.

Colin

How one connects to the cue will be associated with how the cue moves. In the snooker video teaching the grip with the hand feathering open on the back swing the purpose is to keep the butt end from raising up which causes the tip to go down at the other end of the cue.

When that raising happens on the backswing it must be reversed on the forward swing to return the cue to a more 'level' position or the result is that one hits down on the ball more than as was probably intended. For a 'full pendulum swing', the butt goes up & the tip goes down & the reverse is true too.

There is a video by the Oyster guy that shows one of his young students trying to use a full pendulum type stroke that does just that. He basically swings the hand up but then does not swing it back down but instead goes AT the cue ball with the hand which changes the approach angle significantly from how it was at the set up position. Basically he pushed when he should have pulled. I think that tells me that perhaps his mindset may not be conducive to using a full pendulum swing, BUT...that is what he was being taught.

Everyone does not use a full pendulum swing & hence how everyone connects to the cue is different & how that connection changes during the stroke is different.

The same can be said for the wrist along with how it's movements coincide with what the elbow may or may not be doing.

That is why I do not agree with the fixed elbow theory & that it makes things more simple. To me, that is simply not true. IMO keeping the elbow fixed necessitates other compensatory movements in the wrist &/or hand/fingers that to me, sort of go against the norm of our bodies 'design' & composition & maybe even our thought process. That is unless one completely takes the hand & wrist also out of function but doing that increases the up & down aching path of the cue tip.

IMO, if one wants simplicity, then simply move the cue in a straight line because it is a straight implement & we should be using it on a straight plane in all directions & not swinging it on the arc of a pendulum rod.

I think when some significant boimechanical studies are done that will be the conclusion.

The human body is not a simple machine & to try to make it function as one is counterintuitive, at least to me.

To me, the more simple common sense approach is simply to let the body do what it needs to do, so that it can be as effective as it can be for the task that we are asking it to accomplish. That way one's mind is much more free to play the game & does not have thoughts in the back of the mind or doubts from our subconscious or it even being upset because of the limits that we are putting on the body that it has available to use for the task that we are asking it to help accomplish.

Does one want their subconscious mind's focus to be on keeping one's elbow fixed or does one want one's subconscious focus to be on playing the game, pocketing balls & getting position.

A pendulum is very simple to explain & teach. It swings up, down, & up again. Since it is simple, it is easy to see any diversion from it's simplicity.

However... put a long stick at the bottom & issues regarding the moving of the stick & especially the tip end, in a straight line should become vividly apparent.

Picture a baseball bat being held at the nob & being swung as a pendulum. Then picture it being swung with a pool cue stuck on the barrel end of it & trying to keep it moving level & straight to hit a ball precisely with a tip on the end. That should make the compensatory movements or disconnection need issues apparent.

I true pendulum has only the one pivot point at the top. A human arm has a shoulder, elbow, wrist, 3 joints on each finger & then a relatively loose connection to the cue. That does not resemble a simple rigid stiff pendulum rod & to try to make it as such is simply not a logical decision to me.

One can either use the natural dexterity that we have or one can try to inhibit it. To me, inhibiting it is not natural . To go against what is natural is very often not the best thing to do.

There are heel & center shafted putters. They should be 'swung' or stroked differently due to that fact. When one swings a center shafted putter as a heel shafted putter should be used, one is fighting the design of the implement. Why do that? If that is how one wants to putt then one should get a heel shafted putter.

A pool cue is straight & we use the end point of it. IMO it should be used straightly.

We simply do not have the option to get a differently shaped cue stick.

The point of all this is that all too often comments are made seemingly with the assumption that we all are using the same 'full pendulum' type swing & I would certainly think that all of us are not. I know I am not.

So... any & all comments that are not first qualified should be taken with perhaps many grains of salt, as the comment may not be a fit for some of us & may not even be a fit for the individual to whom the comments are directed.

Perhaps no question should be answered without first asking the one asking the question, 'What type stroke are you using?'. Maybe no question should be asked without first declaring what type stroke one is trying to use.

The problem with that is that many do not really know what they are actually doing & perhaps only know what they are trying to do.. Their proper declaration or answer should probably be, 'Well, I'm trying to use XYZ.'.

So the bottom line is...my wrist action may not be your wrist action & my wrist action may not be good for you or your stroke because I'm not focusing on keeping my elbow fixed at a point in space. I am simply moving the cue straight along it's natural design nature. Sometimes that means releasing with the front fingers & supporting or catching with the back fingers. Fran Crimi, I think, has settled on actually playing with the last 2 or 3 fingers as her primary connection to the cue. I tried that & it works quite well but is very uncomfortable for me as I have played much sports & using my thumbs & forefingers are very common & comfortable to me.

IMHO, The stroking of a pool cue, please note that I did not say the 'swinging' of a pool cue, when what actually goes on is analysed I think it will be found to be a bit of complex biomechanical operation. However... it can be done seemingly effortlessly. That's because the human mind & body & the connection between them are amazing.

Sorry for the rather long rant but one point hinges on another much the way our hands & arms have multiple 'hinges'.

Best 2 All,
Rick

PS Jack Nicklaus did not move the putter exactly that same as he moved his other clubs because they are intended to hit the ball into the air while the putter is intended to roll the ball on the ground. Many golfers use their putter much the same as they swing their other clubs. IMO that is a mistake.

...................

ENGLISH!:
Sorry for the rather long rant...

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No problem - unless you care whether anybody actually reads it.

pj
chgo