Opinion On Brunswick Anniversary Purchase

A

alocker

Registered
Hi all,
First post and I'm hoping I could get some feedback on a table I am looking to purchase. It's a 9' Anniversary I want to have installed in my basement to start playing with my 3 boys. I have researched them and do realize it's a 60 year old table, I just want to find out if there is anything I should run away from. The plan would be to clean it up and install with new cloth. If it sticks with the kids we could possibly restore in the future.

I have a few concerns. First is the ribbon slate which this appears to have. Is this an issue? Second, the ball box appears to be from a GC. I don't mind switch to drop pockets or even finding the correct ball box, I just don't know if this setup is just butchered or not.

Overall it appears to have good bones. All the hardware is present and was supposedly taken apart by a pro. It was cool to see good ole American craftsmanship in person.

Thanks in advance for any input on the pictures below.

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trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
all depends on how much $$$$$$

From the pictures, it looks like a decent restoration candidate.
Nothing appears to be broken, missing a nameplate? some mother of pearl sights?

Depends on how much they are asking. There are people who think they are sitting on a $5k plus table. Not so, completely restored they bring good money, but, not "as is"

If you can get it for the right price, BUY IT!!!!

Trent from Toledo
 
A

alocker

Registered
trentfromtoledo said:
From the pictures, it looks like a decent restoration candidate.
Nothing appears to be broken, missing a nameplate? some mother of pearl sights?

Depends on how much they are asking. There are people who think they are sitting on a $5k plus table. Not so, completely restored they bring good money, but, not "as is"

If you can get it for the right price, BUY IT!!!!

Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...

Thank you for the info Trent. Yes, initially the seller was thinking they had something worth "restored" values. Even then the spectrum can be huge. Fortunately we are now closer to an unrestored price I am comfortable with.

What do you think about the ball return, specifically the gullys and pockets? I am finding the repro pockets are expensive so I am concerned with the ones that come with the table. I like a return but not if I have to purchase all the parts to get it working.
 
Lawnboy77

Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm in agreement with Trent, for the right price buy it! I have a model DC as well, no ball return though. I'm thinking yours is original drop pocket and that's what I would stick with. Looks like that one was partially restored, or should I say refinished, a few years ago. I'm not an expert here, and I'll probably get beat up for even speaking up on the mechanics forum, but here is my take on these 60 year old tables...and really all I'm going to do here is go over what I've noticed with my refinished Anniversary.

First off are the rails. This will probably be the most expensive part of a good functional restore and from what I can tell is an area that needs the most attention. You probably already know that Anniversaries originally came with Monarch cushions and to my knowledge there is no cushion today that crosses over to that profile, so you are probably going to need rail work to get it in BCA specs (K-55 is the most common conversion). When I say BCA specs, I mean the correct size play field, pocket shelves, pocket angles and most importantly just good banking that is both lively and accurate. When they recut my subrail bevel angles it reduced my subrail depth to approx. 1-3/4" (The standard is 2") and now I have negative side pocket shelves and the corner pockets shelves are less than minimum. When they removed wood it also caused the play field to be increased from 50" X 100" to 50.5 X 100.5, doesn't sound like much, but on a 3 rail kick it's very noticeable. The reason I mention this is because it looks like your sub rail work is the same as mine (all original with reduced sub rail depth), hopefully not though! If you go over there again measure the distance from the back of the feather strip to the cushion nose tip...it should measure approx. 2 inches, if a 1/4" less then you will be looking at the same conditions as stated above. No biggie though, nothing a good mechanic can't correct, but just beware of that. Probably something you can use to get the price down for sure...rail work like that is not cheap, nor should it be. It's time consuming and highly specialized work. No one around here where I live even knows what a subrail is, much less how important they are to a good playing table. One other thing to add are the figure 8 nut plates on the bottom of the rails, the screws are going into poplar, and poplar is a very soft hardwood, so the inserts may need to be reworked, the same goes with the pocket anchor screws going into the end grain of the rails.

The slate looks to be Brunstone, pretty much the standard for Brunswick from post WWII to mid 70sish. It looks good, it may not be perfect like todays slate machining, but a good mechanic can make it play great. Just watch out for the dowels and inserts, keep reckless folks away from that type setup. It has to be separated first before lifting the pieces, or else you will break the Brunstone at the seams.

All in all I would rate these tables very high, even if they are out of specs they are still a good table with a lot of history and can always be brought back, or even made better by many of the great table mechanics that hang out here.

Rex
 
Last edited:
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Lawnboy77 said:
I'm in agreement with Trent, for the right price buy it! I have a model DC as well, no ball return though. I'm thinking yours is original drop pocket and that's what I would stick with. Looks like that one was partially restored, or should I say refinished, a few years ago. I'm not an expert here, and I'll probably get beat up for even speaking up on the mechanics forum, but here is my take on these 60 year old tables...and really all I'm going to do here is go over what I've noticed with my refinished Anniversary.

First off are the rails. This will probably be the most expensive part of a good functional restore and from what I can tell is an area that needs the most attention. You probably already know that Anniversaries originally came with Monarch cushions and to my knowledge there is no cushion today that crosses over to that profile, so you are probably going to need rail work to get it in BCA specs (K-55 is the most common conversion). When I say BCA specs, I mean the correct size play field, pocket shelves, pocket angles and most importantly just good banking that is both lively and accurate. When they recut my subrail bevel angles it reduced my subrail depth to approx. 1-3/4" (The standard is 2") and now I have negative side pocket shelves and the corner pockets shelves are less than minimum. When they removed wood it also caused the play field to be increased from 50" X 100" to 50.5 X 100.5, doesn't sound like much, but on a 3 rail kick it's very noticeable. The reason I mention this is because it looks like your sub rail work is the same as mine (all original with reduced sub rail depth), hopefully not though! If you go over there again measure the distance from the back of the feather strip to the cushion nose tip...it should measure approx. 2 inches, if a 1/4" less then you will be looking at the same conditions as stated above. No biggie though, nothing a good mechanic can't correct, but just beware of that. Probably something you can use to get the price down for sure...rail work like that is not cheap, nor should it be. It's time consuming and highly specialized work. No one around here where I live even knows what a subrail is, much less how important they are to a good playing table. One other thing to add are the figure 8 nut plates on the bottom of the rails, the screws are going into poplar, and poplar is a very soft hardwood, so the inserts may need to be reworked, the same goes with the pocket anchor screws going into the end grain of the rails.

The slate looks to be Brunstone, pretty much the standard for Brunswick from post WWII to mid 70sish. It looks good, it may not be perfect like todays slate machining, but a good mechanic can make it play great. Just watch out for the dowels and inserts, keep reckless folks away from that type setup. It has to be separated first before lifting the pieces, or else you will break the Brunstone at the seams.

All in all I would rate these tables very high, even if they are out of specs they are still a good table with a lot of history and can always be brought back, or even made better by many of the great table mechanics that hang out here.

Rex
Click to expand...

Not bad, you've been doing your homework:D
 
A

alocker

Registered
Lawnboy77 said:
I'm in agreement with Trent, for the right price buy it! I have a model DC as well, no ball return though. I'm thinking yours is original drop pocket and that's what I would stick with. Looks like that one was partially restored, or should I say refinished, a few years ago. I'm not an expert here, and I'll probably get beat up for even speaking up on the mechanics forum, but here is my take on these 60 year old tables...and really all I'm going to do here is go over what I've noticed with my refinished Anniversary.

First off are the rails. This will probably be the most expensive part of a good functional restore and from what I can tell is an area that needs the most attention. You probably already know that Anniversaries originally came with Monarch cushions and to my knowledge there is no cushion today that crosses over to that profile, so you are probably going to need rail work to get it in BCA specs (K-55 is the most common conversion). When I say BCA specs, I mean the correct size play field, pocket shelves, pocket angles and most importantly just good banking that is both lively and accurate. When they recut my subrail bevel angles it reduced my subrail depth to approx. 1-3/4" (The standard is 2") and now I have negative side pocket shelves and the corner pockets shelves are less than minimum. When they removed wood it also caused the play field to be increased from 50" X 100" to 50.5 X 100.5, doesn't sound like much, but on a 3 rail kick it's very noticeable. The reason I mention this is because it looks like your sub rail work is the same as mine (all original with reduced sub rail depth), hopefully not though! If you go over there again measure the distance from the back of the feather strip to the cushion nose tip...it should measure approx. 2 inches, if a 1/4" less then you will be looking at the same conditions as stated above. No biggie though, nothing a good mechanic can't correct, but just beware of that. Probably something you can use to get the price down for sure...rail work like that is not cheap, nor should it be. It's time consuming and highly specialized work. No one around here where I live even knows what a subrail is, much less how important they are to a good playing table. One other thing to add are the figure 8 nut plates on the bottom of the rails, the screws are going into poplar, and poplar is a very soft hardwood, so the inserts may need to be reworked, the same goes with the pocket anchor screws going into the end grain of the rails.

The slate looks to be Brunstone, pretty much the standard for Brunswick from post WWII to mid 70sish. It looks good, it may not be perfect like todays slate machining, but a good mechanic can make it play great. Just watch out for the dowels and inserts, keep reckless folks away from that type setup. It has to be separated first before lifting the pieces, or else you will break the Brunstone at the seams.

All in all I would rate these tables very high, even if they are out of specs they are still a good table with a lot of history and can always be brought back, or even made better by many of the great table mechanics that hang out here.

Rex
Click to expand...

Thank you for the detailed evaluation. I have considered re-working rails as a cost factor if I decide to get into a full resto. I do also agree that it was re-finished in this millennium and I will take that into account.

I am no great player. I actually have not played in a few years. I just finally have a space to put a table and have tons of great memories playing in friends basements and pool halls. Not sure I have ever played on a great table so I probably won't be too discerning. Like all hobbies, you have to try them and see where they take you. All I know is I would love to bring something like this back to life.

So down to brass tacks, I'm bottomed out at $1500. From what I see out there it's a fair price. Comes with a cover and a set of old Centennial balls. Should I do it?!?!?!
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
I would pay $1500 no problem. Thats only $100 short of the highest price I have ever paid for one.

There is some fool in Latrobe PA trying to sell one for $6500.00. He is also a LIAR, told me he was taking it down now that he had enough offers and then I see it on facebook market place. he tried to DOUBLE the price. Was using my offer to try to fish others in.

In my opinion it is not like a standard antique, the market is for restored tables and not in original "patina" type of condition. I have restored around 20 of them(just for you RKC) and feel confident making that last statement.

BUY IT :)

Trent from Toledo
 
Bobkitty

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
alocker said:
Thanks again for the help guys. I think I just bought it:)
Click to expand...

Good choice. Here is mine. Has a few upgrades from original; Walnut rails made by Mark Gregory, RKC's frame precision leveled with Italian slate. RKC's 42 point leveling system. RKC set it up and it's perfect today.
 

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Lawnboy77

Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Prairie dog said:
Good choice. Here is mine. Has a few upgrades from original; Walnut rails made by Mark Gregory, RKC's frame precision leveled with Italian slate. RKC's 42 point leveling system. RKC set it up and it's perfect today.
Click to expand...

What a beautiful table! The Carroll Shelby of Anniversaries, looks great and has the performance to match.
 
Bobkitty

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Lawnboy77 said:
What a beautiful table! The Carroll Shelby of Anniversaries, looks great and has the performance to match.
Click to expand...

Thanks. RKC came by yesterday. After 1.8 years, the two adjustments he made were to two leg levels (something to do with the Anniversary legs). Moved the 9/16" bolt about 1/4 turn on either leg. That made everything perfect. I have a wood floor and guess that settled a little bit. Everything else on the table was perfect with his Starrett levels. There are no wood shims on this table so nothing to get out of level with the slates. Only 4 tables in the world with his technology. An amazing man!
 
A

alocker

Registered
It was a busy night. Further inspection reveals it is what I thought it was. It's all there and will be a lot of work but I think it will be worth it. All the casting tabs are intact, none of the sub rail nut plates are pulling out, the frame seems to be matched pieces, overall solid. One veneer on the inside of one pedestal took a hit though, not sure how I plant to handle it. The rails are a bit rough in the corners too.

About the cushions, they seem soft and in great shape. I have access to a durometer, would a reading help determine the true condition?

It was a short drive but we made it fit.
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Lawnboy77

Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Congrats! Love seeing these old classics being saved. Those Monarchs look like they could be original cushions. I’d say you have a few more options than I have with mine. Hopefully a mechanic will weigh in and give an opinion...for what it’s worth I have chosen to get on the list for new Walnut rails. Your rails look better than mine, so maybe you guys can figure out a way to use original rubber and fix the soft wood. I kinda wanted an extra set of rails anyway that are pro cut and restore the originals to factory specs. Another benefit to new rails is that it cuts down on the table down time.
 
Last edited:
A

alocker

Registered
Lawnboy77 said:
Congrats! Love seeing these old classics being saved. Those Monarchs look like they could be original cushions. I’d say you have a few more options than I have with mine. Hopefully a mechanic will weigh in and give an opinion...for what it’s worth I have chosen to get on the list for new Walnut rails. Your rails look better than mine, so maybe you guys can figure out a way to use original rubber and fix the soft wood. I kinda wanted an extra set of rails anyway that are pro cut and restore the originals to factory specs. Another benefit to new rails is that it cuts down on the table down time.
Click to expand...

Im trying to find pics of what an original cusion would look like but not finding anything. Closer inspection shows the rail ends are pretty beat up but again, im a novice and I might set it up as is. I can always do rails at any time, right? I do want to wedge the frame as it appears there is some slight sag from the shims.
 
A

alocker

Registered
trentfromtoledo said:
It does appear to have already been refinished once. It will be an excellent project, if you need any help or advice I always love to talk about Brunswick restorations! Dont buy that silly ass pin striping tool!!!

Link to all my restorations:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/toledopooltables/photos/?tab=albums

Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...

I appreciate it and I might give you a call about some small odds and ends. Yes, it was refinished for sure. Not a great job but nothing too butchered either. It looks like one long blind was replaced but everything else appears original.

As far as the stripes, do you mask and shoot them? I plan on shooting the dye and clear so that wouldnt be big deal.

I also need an oval nameplate, are the repros any good?

Thanks for the manual too, found it last week and was able to make sure I had all the parts.
 
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