10-Ball Rules Question

unknownpro:

Depending on stance and background, many may agree with your opinion about the "call shot" and "skewing the game towards safety play" things. However, your first sentence is incorrect. Ten ball has always, historically, been played as a call ball/pocket game. (I don't like to say "call shot" because to me, that means pool as it's played in bars -- calling every rail, carom, ticky, etc.; *these* silly rules lead to more fights than anything.) Unfortunately, many of the sites that one would go to for "snapshot in time" rules from years past, don't maintain copies of those older rules and make them displayable to the public (e.g. BCA). I guess the impetus is to only have the most recent/updated rules available, so noone's trying to play by "old rules."

Wikipedia seems to have a good write-up of Ten ball, that makes some mention of the history of the game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-ball

If you come from a 9-ball background, I'm sure folks will understand your feelings about call ball/pocket play. However, other than the different shaped rack (i.e. 10-ball's triangular shaped rack which is much less vulnerable / exploitable to soft-breaking than the diamond-shaped 9-ball rack), what good is playing 10-ball with 9-ball Texas Express rules? What, it's "kewl" to play with a double-digit number of balls on the table over 9-ball's single-digit number of balls? I don't get it. If you want Texas Express rules, just play 9-ball. There's nothing wrong with 9-ball; that's just part of the game now. The real abomination/perversion is the "you'll pry my 9-ball Texas Express rules from my cold/dead fingers" insertion into a call ball/pocket game like 10-ball, "because 10-ball is the kewl game to play these days."



Two things:

1. You're not going to find 10-ball being played in a bar. Bar bangers looking for a fast-paced rotation game to gamble on are arguably going to play 9-ball, because of the ubiquity and familiarity of 9-ball.

2. Actually, "call shot" is a misnomer -- because "call shot" means calling every bounce, bank, carom, ticky, etc. that is made in the execution of the shot -- now these are bar rules, and are more likely to cause a fight. E.g.: "that ball that you sent down the rail to the corner pocket -- it touched the cushion about a diamond ahead of the pocket, that was a bank shot and you didn't specify you were banking it!" Or, if you're playing 8-ball, and your ball category is stripes, you shoot at two stripes that are frozen together (e.g. 10-/13-ball), call one of them into a corner pocket (e.g. the 10-ball), and successfully pocket that ball, with the 13-ball moving a bit. But your opponent comes up to you and said "you didn't call which of those two stripes you were going to hit first, and I can't tell if you hit the 10-ball first, or the 13-ball first, nor could I tell if you caromed that 10-ball off the 13-ball, or it went clean" and says you lose your turn! Now that is a ruleset *begging* for fights to get started!

Methinks call ball/pocket (or "ball/pocket nomination") is more correct. And, I'll stick my neck out on the line, but if you ask *any* of the pros that regularly play the game (e.g. Chris Bartrum), they'll agree that call ball/pocket nomination is the way to go in 10-ball. (Chris B.?)


-Sean

I agree with number one. In fact, most will be playing eight ball.

I understand your thoughts on number two, and I know the difference. I'm certainly not one to argue with Bartrum, but I just can't understand that someone lucking a ball is going to make any difference in the long haul with two competent players.
 
I agree with pooladdict's options 1 and 2. I am confused about exactly when you would spot the 10-ball if made out of turn during a normal leagl shot though. The rules that Jerry Forsyth reference (WPA link) doesn't address this. It simply states that the 10-ball is the only ball to be spotted.

I was always under the impression that balls made during your inning that were to be spotted, were done so after the end of you inning. I would agree that this might create a problem if you continued and ran out the rest of the rack, and the 10-ball was still down because your inning never ended, so I guess it makes sense to spot that 10-ball immediately after it's made (if not called).

BTW, I would never call two balls at one time. I'd make my decission and call the one that I was going to make and concentrate on that ball only. Like pooladdict says, it doen't matter what else goes in so long as the called ball goes in and your turn would continue (unless you called and made the 10...then it's game over)

L8R...Ken
 
I have to say that the few times I saw 10 Ball played, it was always played like 9 Ball until recently. Only after the rules became "official", I'm not sure how many years ago that was but not many. I started playing seriously in 1973 but did not play 10 Ball myself until after I left NY and only in the past 7 or 8 years if memory serves me.
 
BTW, I would never call two balls at one time. I'd make my decission and call the one that I was going to make and concentrate on that ball only. Like pooladdict says, it doen't matter what else goes in so long as the called ball goes in and your turn would continue (unless you called and made the 10...then it's game over)

L8R...Ken

In retrospect, I agree with you. My initial thoughts about calling shots meant that any ball pocketed must be called. (Old school rules I grew up with not only required us to call the pocket a ball was going into, but whether it would or would not carom off another ball to do it! We had to call nearly everything that was going to happen in the pocketing of a ball.) So I was taking the definition of "Call Shots" too far. I appreciate the clarification from the forum!
 
unknownpro:

Depending on stance and background, many may agree with your opinion about the "call shot" and "skewing the game towards safety play" things. However, your first sentence is incorrect. Ten ball has always, historically, been played as a call ball/pocket game. (I don't like to say "call shot" because to me, that means pool as it's played in bars -- calling every rail, carom, ticky, etc.; *these* silly rules lead to more fights than anything.) Unfortunately, many of the sites that one would go to for "snapshot in time" rules from years past, don't maintain copies of those older rules and make them displayable to the public (e.g. BCA). I guess the impetus is to only have the most recent/updated rules available, so noone's trying to play by "old rules."

Wikipedia seems to have a good write-up of Ten ball, that makes some mention of the history of the game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-ball

If you come from a 9-ball background, I'm sure folks will understand your feelings about call ball/pocket play. However, other than the different shaped rack (i.e. 10-ball's triangular shaped rack which is much less vulnerable / exploitable to soft-breaking than the diamond-shaped 9-ball rack), what good is playing 10-ball with 9-ball Texas Express rules? What, it's "kewl" to play with a double-digit number of balls on the table over 9-ball's single-digit number of balls? I don't get it. If you want Texas Express rules, just play 9-ball. There's nothing wrong with 9-ball; that's just part of the game now. The real abomination/perversion is the "you'll pry my 9-ball Texas Express rules from my cold/dead fingers" insertion into a call ball/pocket game like 10-ball, "because 10-ball is the kewl game to play these days."



Two things:

1. You're not going to find 10-ball being played in a bar. Bar bangers looking for a fast-paced rotation game to gamble on are arguably going to play 9-ball, because of the ubiquity and familiarity of 9-ball.

2. Actually, "call shot" is a misnomer -- because "call shot" means calling every bounce, bank, carom, ticky, etc. that is made in the execution of the shot -- now these are bar rules, and are more likely to cause a fight. E.g.: "that ball that you sent down the rail to the corner pocket -- it touched the cushion about a diamond ahead of the pocket, that was a bank shot and you didn't specify you were banking it!" Or, if you're playing 8-ball, and your ball category is stripes, you shoot at two stripes that are frozen together (e.g. 10-/13-ball), call one of them into a corner pocket (e.g. the 10-ball), and successfully pocket that ball, with the 13-ball moving a bit. But your opponent comes up to you and said "you didn't call which of those two stripes you were going to hit first, and I can't tell if you hit the 10-ball first, or the 13-ball first, nor could I tell if you caromed that 10-ball off the 13-ball, or it went clean" and says you lose your turn! Now that is a ruleset *begging* for fights to get started!

Methinks call ball/pocket (or "ball/pocket nomination") is more correct. And, I'll stick my neck out on the line, but if you ask *any* of the pros that regularly play the game (e.g. Chris Bartrum), they'll agree that call ball/pocket nomination is the way to go in 10-ball. (Chris B.?)

-Sean

I played on the Camel Pro Billiards Series in the late 90s. The logo was blue for ten ball because all their biggest tournaments were ten ball, and none of them were call shot. Call shot had previously been tried on CJ's PCA tour for 9-ball and imo was a tried and true failure. It complicated the rules and made players call balls they never intended to pocket making them look stupid to fans in the stands.

I grew up playing 15 ball rotation, no call shot, and the value of adding extra balls to rotation games is obvious to me since it increases the difficulty exponentially. I'm sure in the future we will be playing eleven and twelve ball tournaments, but they won't be call shot.
 
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BCAPL news relative to the thread...

While the BCAPL rules information in post #3 is currently correct, there is discussion happening now at the National Office to make BCAPL 10-Ball call shot. The final decision has not been made, but my best guess is that it will probably happen by March 1, and I know that call shot rules will be in effect for the U.S. Open 10-Ball Championship in May (a CSI production).

Concerning calling more than one ball on a shot - it is simply illegal under both WSR and BCAPL rules, so discussing it is irrelevant in reference to those rules:

WSR 1.6: "...Only one ball may be called on each shot..."
BCAPL Rule 1.17.1: "...You may only call one ball on a shot..."

sfleinen said:
Actually, "call shot" is a misnomer -- because "call shot" means calling every bounce, bank, carom, ticky, etc. that is made in the execution of the shot...

While I understand what you are saying, and I am aware that most players that are not experienced with WSR or BCAPL rules might agree with your statement, IMHO your statement is not necessarily correct, and the term can only be a misnomer when based on the background of the person using it. I submit that any person who has been raised from the beginning in a WSR or BCAPL rules-based approach would be just as quick to look at a bar banger with incredulity if told that "call shot" meant they had to call every detail. At any rate, within the framework of WSR and BCAPL rules the term is defined, regardless of whether anyone considers it a misnomer. The titles of the relevant rules say it all - WSR 1.6 is "Standard Call Shot", and BCAPL rules define "Call Shot Game" and discuss the detail in Rule 1.17. Neither include calling more than ball/pocket.

:smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
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While the BCAPL rules information in post #3 is currently correct, there is discussion happening now at the National Office to make BCAPL 10-Ball call shot. The final decision has not been made, but my best guess is that it will probably happen by March 1, and I know that call shot rules will be in effect for the U.S. Open 10-Ball Championship in May (a CSI production).

Well, if it's any help, this weekend's Predator Tour 10-ball Open/Pro event was extremely well received by the players. Initial feedback by players and fans overwhelming supported the call shot/call safe rules and for me personally, I really enjoyed seeing the most "pure" pool playing I've seen in a long time. The shots were clean, the safeties thoughtful and deliberate, and the quality elevated.

I hope the May Championships choose to take on these rules.
 
Clarification

I hope the May Championships choose to take on these rules.

I should have been more specific and separated my thoughts...

The decision has already been made for the U.S. Open - it will be call shot.

Just waiting for the final word on the go-ahead to change the 10-Ball rules in The Official Rules of the BCAPL . That is what I expect to be settled by March or so.

Buddy
 
I should have been more specific and separated my thoughts...

The decision has already been made for the U.S. Open - it will be call shot.

Just waiting for the final word on the go-ahead to change the 10-Ball rules in The Official Rules of the BCAPL . That is what I expect to be settled by March or so.

Buddy

Awesome. question: For the US Open 10-Ball, is it both call shot/call safe? And if the player fails to pocket the called ball and snookers his opponent anyway, can the incoming player make the shooter shoot again?
 
Even clearer clarification...

If the new BCAPL 10-Ball rules are in effect they will mirror WSR in all aspects relative to thie question. If they are not in effect then most likely WSR will be used. Either way, if the called ball is missed and no other ball is illegally pocketed and no foul is committed, the incoming player will accept the table in position.

Buddy
 
If the new BCAPL 10-Ball rules are in effect they will mirror WSR in all aspects relative to thie question. If they are not in effect then most likely WSR will be used. Either way, if the called ball is missed and no other ball is illegally pocketed and no foul is committed, the incoming player will accept the table in position.

Buddy

And every time a player is faced with a safe that may possibly pocket a ball (including multi-rail kick shots) he is going to call that ball to keep from being penalized if a ball falls - even though his real intention is to play safe. So he makes a 3 rail kick gets safe and looks like he missed the ball he called by 3 diamonds. The crowd moans at a great shot. That is not progress.

Why Americans should subject themselves to WPA rules is beyond me.
 
tatcat2000:
Concerning calling more than one ball on a shot - it is simply illegal under both WSR and BCAPL rules, so discussing it is irrelevant in reference to those rules:

WSR 1.6: "...Only one ball may be called on each shot..."
BCAPL Rule 1.17.1: "...You may only call one ball on a shot..."

Does this mean that if a player who doesn't know this rule calls two balls and makes both of them he loses his turn? (I assume that making only one of them is loss of turn.)

pj
chgo
 
If the new BCAPL 10-Ball rules are in effect they will mirror WSR in all aspects relative to thie question. If they are not in effect then most likely WSR will be used. Either way, if the called ball is missed and no other ball is illegally pocketed and no foul is committed, the incoming player will accept the table in position.

Buddy

Thanks Buddy for the clarification. I hope at some point the BCA considers using the rules we use on the Predator Tour. The rules nearly eliminate all slop/luck in the game of 10-ball and truly allow the elite of the sport to showcase their talent in pocketing, safety and cue-ball control.

The rules while similar in some respects to the rules you suggest, additionally require a player to call safeties as well as pay for unintentional snookers. If the player calls a ball/pocket and fails to pocket the ball in the pocket or into the wrong pocket, the incoming player has the option to make them shoot again if he doesn't like the table. This way, an incoming player does not pay for an unintentional "lucky" result.

Tony Robles can't get his AZ account to ever work properly so he asked to write in this thread:​

TR:
"I played in a tournament by Grady Matthews nearly 15 years ago with these rules and saw an overwhelming response to the high quality of play it produced. This year having a Pro/Open tournament for the Predator Tour allowed me to run a tournament with these rules in effect and all participants fell in love with the rules and elevated level of play.

As a player playing the game for 30 years, the one thing that has always made me sick about 9-ball has been the luck factor. I found it amazing that most players and promoters thought that the problem was solved by switching to 10-ball. All that did was solve the breaking problem but the luck factor was still in the game. By applying these rules and playing 10-ball we eliminate the corner ball going in every time as well as eliminate 85-90% of the luck factor. Now we are playing REAL pool. I haven't enjoyed playing pool this much since Grady's tournament 15 years ago.

If you and Mark are interested in discussing it more, I believe Mark has my number and if you'd like it, PM Gail."


Simply a suggestion to consider I hope. While I know some are in favor of the "excitement" the luckiness of the sport involves and some enjoy the intelligence of a two-way shot, what I witnessed this weekend was the "purest" pool I've ever seen. It'd be nice to have an event where the winner was the most deliberate of all players entered without the effects of luck.
 
For what it is worth,
In a ref'ed game, the referee would not allow the call (two balls on one shot)
And it a non-ref'ed game, the opponent should not allow the two ball call.

IMO if it gets pass both the ref and the opponent and both balls are pocketed, PLAY ON.

Does this mean that if a player who doesn't know this rule calls two balls and makes both of them he loses his turn? (I assume that making only one of them is loss of turn.)

pj
chgo
 
Thanks Buddy for the clarification. I hope at some point the BCA considers using the rules we use on the Predator Tour. The rules nearly eliminate all slop/luck in the game of 10-ball and truly allow the elite of the sport to showcase their talent in pocketing, safety and cue-ball control.

The rules while similar in some respects to the rules you suggest, additionally require a player to call safeties as well as pay for unintentional snookers. If the player calls a ball/pocket and fails to pocket the ball in the pocket or into the wrong pocket, the incoming player has the option to make them shoot again if he doesn't like the table. This way, an incoming player does not pay for an unintentional "lucky" result.

Tony Robles can't get his AZ account to ever work properly so he asked to write in this thread:​

TR:
"I played in a tournament by Grady Matthews nearly 15 years ago with these rules and saw an overwhelming response to the high quality of play it produced. This year having a Pro/Open tournament for the Predator Tour allowed me to run a tournament with these rules in effect and all participants fell in love with the rules and elevated level of play.

As a player playing the game for 30 years, the one thing that has always made me sick about 9-ball has been the luck factor. I found it amazing that most players and promoters thought that the problem was solved by switching to 10-ball. All that did was solve the breaking problem but the luck factor was still in the game. By applying these rules and playing 10-ball we eliminate the corner ball going in every time as well as eliminate 85-90% of the luck factor. Now we are playing REAL pool. I haven't enjoyed playing pool this much since Grady's tournament 15 years ago.

If you and Mark are interested in discussing it more, I believe Mark has my number and if you'd like it, PM Gail."


Simply a suggestion to consider I hope. While I know some are in favor of the "excitement" the luckiness of the sport involves and some enjoy the intelligence of a two-way shot, what I witnessed this weekend was the "purest" pool I've ever seen. It'd be nice to have an event where the winner was the most deliberate of all players entered without the effects of luck.

More than 90% of luck in pool is in position. Why don't you call all your shots and position for the entire run before you start shooting if you want to eliminate luck? Why don't you have to call the exact position for a safe? If you intend to hook me behind the 3 but instead hook me behind the 4 is that not luck?

There was a recent pro event using the rules you describe and the two players (Archer and Immonen?) in the final shot at the case 9 ball more times than I've ever seen in a beginner tournament because they were afraid of calling the 9, missing, and leaving themselves a tougher shot to play safe on. Earlier they continually ducked outs they would have gone for without the fear of having a miss turning into a really bad pushout.


Tony is a great player and a great person and a friend of mine. But I've been playing the game more than his 30 years. I ran my first rack of 15 ball rotation before I was a teenager. I played 2 shot roll out 9 ball and it sucked. Texas Express rules are far far superior all around. The rules you describe are a step back toward those 2 shot roll out rules that never got nine ball anywhere, but with an added disincentive toward offense.

I know Tony is a great straight pool player, and I would never advise him on how to improve straight pool. But did he grow up playing 15 ball rotation as I did, and as the Filipinos do? Are there any Filipinos that want to play call shot rotation games?

No one can deny with a straight face that these rules favor defense over offense. I don't think that will help make rotation games more popular.
 
GG11 said:
"...require a player to call safeties as well as pay for unintentional snookers. If the player calls a ball/pocket and fails to pocket the ball in the pocket or into the wrong pocket, the incoming player has the option to make them shoot again if he doesn't like the table. This way, an incoming player does not pay for an unintentional "lucky" result."

While neither I (nor any other BCAPL referee) make or interpret the rules, I do have a little insight into the mindset of those that do at BCAPL. I will bring it up for discussion, but I do not see the provision highlighted above being implemented. For the reason you need look no further than the BCAPL's Statement of Principles from The Official Rules of the BCA Pool Leauge, page v:

"Luck is an inherent part of all sports, games and competition. It is neither possible nor desirable to use the rules to legislate all luck out of the game."

My insight tells me that a rule that allows an opponent to turn down the table just because the shooter got a lucky roll after an ordinary missed shot with no ball pocketed simply will not fly...

Note that the provision of of WSR 9.7, covering the same situation but with an illegally pocketed ball, will likely be included. In that case, the option to refuse the shot will be in place.

In the end analysis, any rule writing body must make dozens of decisions throughout the rules of all games about "where to draw the line". In this case, the decision is about where to draw the line concerning an unlucky roll for the incoming player. Onging discussions at BCAPL currently indicate the decision will fall in line with WSR. Rest assurred both BCAPL and I will let you know as soon as the final decision is made regarding The Official Rules of the BCA Pool Leauge.
 
While neither I (nor any other BCAPL referee) make or interpret the rules, I do have a little insight into the mindset of those that do at BCAPL. I will bring it up for discussion, but I do not see the provision highlighted above being implemented. For the reason you need look no further than the BCAPL's Statement of Principles from The Official Rules of the BCA Pool Leauge, page v:

"Luck is an inherent part of all sports, games and competition. It is neither possible nor desirable to use the rules to legislate all luck out of the game."

My insight tells me that a rule that allows an opponent to turn down the table just because the shooter got a lucky roll after an ordinary missed shot with no ball pocketed simply will not fly...

Note that the provision of of WSR 9.7, covering the same situation but with an illegally pocketed ball, will likely be included. In that case, the option to refuse the shot will be in place.

In the end analysis, any rule writing body must make dozens of decisions throughout the rules of all games about "where to draw the line". In this case, the decision is about where to draw the line concerning an unlucky roll for the incoming player. Onging discussions at BCAPL currently indicate the decision will fall in line with WSR. Rest assurred both BCAPL and I will let you know as soon as the final decision is made regarding The Official Rules of the BCA Pool Leauge.

Thank you for the reply. I hope the BCA continues to search for ways to elevate the game - which does appear to be their goal. I'm not quite sure I understand why a player illegally pocketing a ball initiates the option to refuse a shot but failure to pocket a called ball and leaving an opponent a hooked ball, does not. I guess it's a start.

Sports do inherently involve luck. As unknownpro above pointed out above, unless we call every detail of a shot, luck will factor in. But many of the pros would agree that steps to eliminate the majority of luck would be a relief.

Perhaps BCAPL will continue to monitor the Predator Tour's progress and request player feedback on the format to help support their decisions for future events of 10-ball. Let a democracy of the pros be a voice in the board.
 
Definition of "rotation" does not automatically include "Texas Express"

Thank you for the reply. I hope the BCA continues to search for ways to elevate the game - which does appear to be their goal. I'm not quite sure I understand why a player illegally pocketing a ball initiates the option to refuse a shot but failure to pocket a called ball and leaving an opponent a hooked ball, does not. I guess it's a start.

Sports do inherently involve luck. As unknownpro above pointed out above, unless we call every detail of a shot, luck will factor in. But many of the pros would agree that steps to eliminate the majority of luck would be a relief.

Perhaps BCAPL will continue to monitor the Predator Tour's progress and request player feedback on the format to help support their decisions for future events of 10-ball. Let a democracy of the pros be a voice in the board.

Gail:

First, I want to cordially thank you for the great hospitality that you and Tony showed me at this past weekend's Predator Open/Pro 10-ball event. It was GREAT seeing you guys again! And, though it was "interesting" (to say the least, perhaps karma?) that I ended up drawing Tony as my very first match, he and I had one heck of a match, didn't we? I guess Tony loves to live on the edge with repeat hill-hill matches, one right after the other, making for many heart attack moments, eh? ;) I guess that 5-ball "had it out for me" in costing me the match; I must have some subliminal "issue" with the color orange or something -- perhaps a NYer's anger towards "construction crew orange" or something. :D It's healing to be able to laugh-off a missed shot, though.

Anyway, as someone who played in the Predator Open/Pro 10-ball event, I can tell you that I GENUINELY LOVED these new rules!! I absolutely enjoyed myself, enjoyed the competition in all my matches, and most of all, I enjoyed the player interaction that occurred precisely because of these rules (e.g. players looking over to and talking with the other, after a missed shot, or a safety that ended up pocketing a ball). There was no "blind animosity" that occurs when two players don't have to say a word to each other in the entire match of, say, a Texas Express 9-ball match, when the only spoken word between the two players might be a "push" call. In Tony's rules, the players have to interact with each other, none of this "silently going back to your seat" from a missed shot or whatever.

I can tell the readership that the "talk of the room" at Raxx Billiards, while the Open 10-ball event was going on, were the rules -- and it was all positive. I didn't hear one negative thing -- not a single one(!) -- mentioned about the "downfalls" or "pitfalls" of these call-shot/call-safety/reshoot-a-missed-shot-option. In fact, many of the players of the A/B/C/D 9-ball event that I talked to were actually envious of these rules -- including those that were coming off [W]ins in their 9-ball matches! (I.e. it was not it was listening to "sour grapes" from players that lost their matches due to fluked-in 9-balls or whatever. It was definitely unanimous all around that Tony's rules were the way to go. Many players in the A/B/C/D 9-ball event even wanted to see the rules amended to have the 9-ball called!)

I have some thoughts about some things that were recently posted in this thread:

1. "...a rule that allows an opponent to turn down the table just because the shooter got a lucky roll after an ordinary missed shot with no ball pocketed simply will not fly..."

I disagree. Two things this rule does do, is eliminate two-way shots, for the purposes of trying to get ball-in-hand, as well as for the incoming shooter not to have to "pay" for the previous shooter's misfortune. The player who misses the shot should have to pay the price, not the incoming player!

2. "It complicated the rules and made players call balls they never intended to pocket making them look stupid to fans in the stands."

I disagree. Not once did I see this happen during the entire event! Only an amateur would do this -- i.e. call a silly shot when he/she has the called safety in his/her arsenal. If there wasn't an obvious pocketable ball, the player simply called "safe" and executed one. As long as that player didn't pocket a ball in the execution of the safety, the incoming player had to accept the table as-is, and shoot from there. I saw some of the most spectacular kick-safeties executed, when that player had to accept the table from a called safety, called "safe" him/herself, lined it up, and executed a kick (with a good hit) that resulted in a snooker. Taps and cheers abounded! This rule actually forced players to show they knew what they were doing, instead of "getting lucky."

In summary, I know we have a lot of Texas Express advocates out there, but I don't think Tony is trying to "eliminate Texas Express" itself. Although several tours in the past (e.g. the previously mentioned Camel tour) probably played 10-ball as Texas Express, that method of playing 10-ball is a customization, not the norm. Who says all rotation games "have to be" Texas Express? Why, because of that "rotation" word -- i.e. the word "rotation" implies that Texas Express is bolted to its hip? I disagree. It's refreshing to have a rotation game with called-shot/called-safety/player-is-forced-to-reshoot-a-missed-shot option. This was probably the most fun I had in a tournament in a long, l-o-n-g time!

My sincere appreciation and cue taps to Tony, Gail, and the rest of the Predator Open 10-ball tour for taking a stand for making sure an event is an exhibition of skill, not luck.

-Sean
 
And every time a player is faced with a safe that may possibly pocket a ball (including multi-rail kick shots) he is going to call that ball to keep from being penalized if a ball falls - even though his real intention is to play safe. So he makes a 3 rail kick gets safe and looks like he missed the ball he called by 3 diamonds. The crowd moans at a great shot. That is not progress.

Why Americans should subject themselves to WPA rules is beyond me.

Eeeh, because America is still a part of the world, as in World Pool Association? Or do you believe that USA should run their own show in pool, independent of what happens in the rest of the world?

I believe americans were strongly involved in the making of the new 10-ball rules, and luckily USA is also represented in WPA.
 
Does this mean that if a player who doesn't know this rule calls two balls and makes both of them he loses his turn? (I assume that making only one of them is loss of turn.)

As soon as I pressed the 'submit reply' button for that post I wondered who was going to come up with this. You win, Patrick! :lol: I was hoping we might get to the next edition before it was noticed...*sigh*:embarrassed2::wink:

From a strict reading of BCAPL rules, you are almost correct. Rule 1.17.1 was violated, and since it does not specify a penalty, Rule 1.21.2 goes into effect, which states that any violation of the rules is penalized by loss of turn and BIH, unless otherwise specified. That then, as currently written, is the proper penalty in BCAPL play.

The fact of the matter is that sometimes we let issues slip into the book that may or may not deserve to be penalized at the level of a foul, and do so without specifying a remedy if the issue is violated. Another good example is an "illegal" rack. If a player puts out an 8-Ball rack that does not have the proper balls at the rear corners, should that be penalized as a foul? I think it is safe to say most reasonable people would say no - if the error is caught before the break simply correct it, and if it is not corrected and the rack is broken, play on. The BCAPL thought the same thing, and the oversight concerning the procedure for an out-of-spec rack was added in the last edition (Rule 1.14.4). The "call-a-ball-and-safety-at-the-same-time" issue was also resolved (Applied Ruling for "Safety", Situation 1).

It is an invalid argument to say "no one does that" or just as simply "you can't do that" (kinda like I did earlier). In the real world, it happens and it reqires a resolution.

I would like to give you a quick answer now, but when analyzing the issue with the National Office over the last half-hour it quickly became quite complicated, with a dizzying array of potential pre-shot and post-shot possibilites and consequences, varying depending on what game is being played. So it has been taken under advisement for the time being.

The "two-ball-call" penalty issue will be looked at by the BCAPL over the next month and a ruling will be issued. A revised rule or an Applied Ruling go into effect when issued, and will be included in the next edition of the BCAPL rule book. Until then, as noted above, per the BCAPL rules a "two-ball call" is penalized by loss-of-turn and BIH in BCAPL play.
 
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