314 to Z to 314 to Z

[Tommy Tube Sock]

I started playing with a 314 a few years ago. I then decided to try the Z. At first I really loved it, but then thought the extra skinny tip was exagerating off center hits and making me less accurate. Bought the 314 2 and loved it. Then decided to try Z 2. Same results - off center hits = missed balls. Took some BCA lessons really worked on my stroke. Practiced so much that the tip on my 314 2 was down to the ferrule. Pulled out the Z2 and WOW! Drawing like a hero. I can really see the tip on the cue ball when shooting english. I think the lessons straightened my stroke enough so that I can handle and exploit the Z shaft.

But I wonder; do some folks switch back and forth depending on the game? Maybe for straight pool and 8 ball you would use a conventional 13mm or a 314 and for 9 ball a Z? Does that make sense? Or should you use the same shaft for all games?

I am obviously a novice. Not a world beater or ever hope to be. League player just looking for some advice.

 

[av84fun]

I started playing with a 314 a few years ago. I then decided to try the Z. At first I really loved it, but then thought the extra skinny tip was exagerating off center hits and making me less accurate. Bought the 314 2 and loved it. Then decided to try Z 2. Same results - off center hits = missed balls. Took some BCA lessons really worked on my stroke. Practiced so much that the tip on my 314 2 was down to the ferrule. Pulled out the Z2 and WOW! Drawing like a hero. I can really see the tip on the cue ball when shooting english. I think the lessons straightened my stroke enough so that I can handle and exploit the Z shaft.

But I wonder; do some folks switch back and forth depending on the game? Maybe for straight pool and 8 ball you would use a conventional 13mm or a 314 and for 9 ball a Z? Does that make sense? Or should you use the same shaft for all games?

I am obviously a novice. Not a world beater or ever hope to be. League player just looking for some advice.

That's largely personal preference so you'll get replies on both sides but personally, I would standardize on one shaft/butt combo and stay with it.

Did both shafts come with the same tip (brand and hardness) and both shaped to a dime radius?

If not, then the tips may have caused the variation in your game more than the shafts.

Regards,
Jim

 

[BPG24]

I started playing with a 314 a few years ago. I then decided to try the Z. At first I really loved it, but then thought the extra skinny tip was exagerating off center hits and making me less accurate. Bought the 314 2 and loved it. Then decided to try Z 2. Same results - off center hits = missed balls. Took some BCA lessons really worked on my stroke. Practiced so much that the tip on my 314 2 was down to the ferrule. Pulled out the Z2 and WOW! Drawing like a hero. I can really see the tip on the cue ball when shooting english. I think the lessons straightened my stroke enough so that I can handle and exploit the Z shaft.

But I wonder; do some folks switch back and forth depending on the game? Maybe for straight pool and 8 ball you would use a conventional 13mm or a 314 and for 9 ball a Z? Does that make sense? Or should you use the same shaft for all games?

I am obviously a novice. Not a world beater or ever hope to be. League player just looking for some advice.

I know exactly what you are talking about. After using a 314 for a while, I decided to try the Z shaft.
Absolutely loved it. My game went up for a few months. I was playing alot and playing well. Then I had to slow down from playing so much. I figured out quickly that you can't use a Z shaft if you only play 3-4 hours a week. The Z shaft is designed for a good player that plays alot. The smaller tip requires more accuracy, but also gives rewards to those that can use it. The other main difference is the stiffness. The Z plays alot stiffer than the 314. I prefer that.

I have yet to meet an average league player that likes the Z shaft.

 

[vin]

i personally like 314 better than z. but thats my personal preference

 

[koston08]

I just went from a z-2 to a 314-2 and I like the switch. The uniform pro taper that comes with the 314 allows my closed bridge to feel much more solid so I can hit shots that require a lot of spin with more confidence. The euro taper on the z-2 never felt all that comfortable for a closed bridge. I also added an extra in to my cue by buying the 30 in 314 as opposed to the standard 29 ins because of my longer bridge length and to move the balance point up a bit. I was surprised that I could get so much spin of a 12.75 mm 314 tip because I had been playing with 11.75-12mm tips since I started playing pool, but I can spin the ball plenty with much more consistency too. There is a change in deflection, the 314 will deflect a little more, but after playing for a week and getting used to the shaft, I was able to pocket the balls again.

 

[SteveFromNY]

I absolutely HATED going from my 314 to the Z shaft.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

I"m using a Z shaft and don't switch.

I think once players find what works for them, they stick with it. Look at a lot of the snooker pros who play pool. When I see Steve Davis, Ronnie O'Sullivan, et al they play with their snooker cues. Tony Drago has some sort of a hybrid-looking cue; it's in the snooker style but it doesn't have the typical brass ferrule.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

BPG24:
...you can't use a Z shaft if you only play 3-4 hours a week. The Z shaft is designed for a good player that plays alot. The smaller tip requires more accuracy

[BROKEN RECORD MODE ON]

Sorry, but this simply isn't true. Tip width has no bearing on tip placement consistency ("accuracy"). If your stroke is as consistent as it was, then your tip placement is also as consistent as it was.

You may get more or less spin than expected at first if your new tip is thinner or wider, but this is only because you're moving your shaft the same distance to the side as before, forgetting that the thinner or wider tip will hit the CB in a slightly different place than before for the same amount of shaft offset. But even then the amount of spin will be consistently different than before - and when you make the adjustment it will be consistently the same as before.

This is also true for changing tip curvatures (going from a dime to a nickel shape or vice verse) - the amount of spin for a given shaft offset may change a little until you make the adjustment, but consistency won't change.

The idea that thinner or more rounded tips are less consistent or harder to control is a very common myth - I think most players believe it. But it ain't so. In fact, accuracy (and maybe consistency) should increase with a thinner tip because you can see more clearly which part of the tip is hitting the CB (and you might be paying closer attention to that).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I started playing with a 314 a few years ago. I then decided to try the Z. At first I really loved it, but then thought the extra skinny tip was exagerating off center hits and making me less accurate.

This can happen during the "getting used to it" phase because a thinner tip can contact the CB farther from center for the same amount of shaft offset. But this will only be true for shots with a lot of spin (a lot of tip offset) unless you've also changed your tip curvature. This isn't a consistency problem, though. You should be as consistent as before.

I can really see the tip on the cue ball when shooting english.

This is a great advantage - it's why I use a 10mm tip for pool.

But I wonder; do some folks switch back and forth depending on the game? Maybe for straight pool and 8 ball you would use a conventional 13mm or a 314 and for 9 ball a Z? Does that make sense? Or should you use the same shaft for all games?

I don't think there's a reason to use different width tips for different games - it can only hurt your consistency to go back and forth.

pj
chgo

 

[Handsumm]

[BROKEN RECORD MODE ON]

Sorry, but this simply isn't true. Tip width has no bearing on tip placement consistency ("accuracy"). If your stroke is as consistent as it was, then your tip placement is also as consistent as it was.

You may get more or less spin than expected at first if your new tip is thinner or wider, but this is only because you're moving your shaft the same distance to the side as before, forgetting that the thinner or wider tip will hit the CB in a slightly different place than before for the same amount of shaft offset. But even then the amount of spin will be consistently different than before - and when you make the adjustment it will be consistently the same as before.

This is also true for changing tip curvatures (going from a dime to a nickel shape or vice verse) - the amount of spin for a given shaft offset may change a little until you make the adjustment, but consistency won't change.

The idea that thinner or more rounded tips are less consistent or harder to control is a very common myth - I think most players believe it. But it ain't so. In fact, accuracy (and maybe consistency) should increase with a thinner tip because you can see more clearly which part of the tip is hitting the CB (and you might be paying closer attention to that).

pj
chgo

I couldn't DISAGREE more.

To the OP, I have different sized ferrules on three of my shafts. When I am trying to get in stroke, or am having accuracy problems, I will use the larger diameter shaft. Once I feel confident in my stroke and pocketing, I will use the smaller shafts for more spin, and/or less deflection.

It also depends on the table size and game I am playing as well. For example, I will use my OB-1 with a 12mm shaft on a nine footer, and I will use an 11mm shaft on a bar box. Making tough shots on a nine footer with an 11mm shaft is much more difficult in my opinion.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I couldn't DISAGREE more.

OK, but it's hard to tell what you're disagreeing with, or why, without some detail.

Making tough shots on a nine footer with an 11mm shaft is much more difficult in my opinion.

And much easier in my opinion. I give some detailed reasons for mine; do you disagree with any of them in particular?

pj
chgo

 

[Handsumm]

OK, but it's hard to tell what you're disagreeing with, or why, without some detail.



And much easier in my opinion. I give some detailed reasons for mine; do you disagree with any of them in particular?

pj
chgo

With a smaller tip/ferrule the point of contact is more precise, therefore exaggerating any slight off-center hit on the cue ball. The larger the tip is, the less accurate you have to be with the hit. On the other hand, a larger shaft tends to flex less, thereby creating less spin.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

I agree with pj. Much easier with a thinner shaft, especially power shots.

OK, but it's hard to tell what you're disagreeing with, or why, without some detail.



And much easier in my opinion. I give some detailed reasons for mine; do you disagree with any of them in particular?

pj
chgo

 

[9baller]

belmicah is right on the money from what i have experienced. charles

 

[Patrick Johnson]

With a smaller tip/ferrule the point of contact is more precise, therefore exaggerating any slight off-center hit on the cue ball.

This isn't true. The size of the contact area is the same with a 10mm tip as it is with a 13mm tip, and assuming they have the same curvature it's also at exactly the same location on both tips (for the same offset from centerball). The only thing that's different is there's less unused leather on the outside edge of a thinner tip. The only thing the extra outside leather does on a 13mm tip is get in the way of seeing clearly where you're hitting the CB.

I only use the outer edge of my 10mm tip when I'm using maximum spin. You can't hit any farther from the center of a 13mm tip than you can from the center of a 10mm tip because in order to do so you'd have to hit so far out on the CB that you'd miscue, so you only use about the middle 10mm of any tip anyway.

The larger the tip is, the less accurate you have to be with the hit.

This isn't true either, for the same reason. It might be true to some degree for a flatter tip (and only for a nearly centerball hit), but not for a smaller one.

On the other hand, a larger shaft tends to flex less, thereby creating less spin.

Sorry, I don't think that's true either. I don't think the shaft's flexing has time to make any difference during the 1/1000 of a second that the tip is in contact with the ball.

pj
chgo

 

[olauzon]

hey tube sock,

i switch back, forth and further all the time (correction, when i play..) between z2, obeedoobey and original nubs. i have no idea what good it does as i currently don't play enuff. but i can concur in the notion that z2 gives a better spin, ob1 i get not so much but better control and nubs is all about conservative cue ball control. 1p & banks i'd play nubs, 8 or 9 i'd play the others depending on table. hope that helped any. you took beer time off of me!

cheers

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You can't hit any farther from the center of a 13mm tip than you can from the center of a 10mm tip because in order to do so you'd have to hit so far out on the CB that you'd miscue, so you only use about the middle 10mm of any tip anyway.

So what size tip do you need to be able to use maximum english without going past the tip's edge? It turns out there's a simple and elegant rule of thumb for this:

To use maximum english without going past the edge of your tip, you need a tip that's as wide as the radius of your tip's curvature.

In other words, if you use a dime-shaped tip you need a tip that's at least as wide as a dime's radius (about 8.7mm or 11/32"). And if you use a nickel-shaped tip you need a tip that's at least as wide as a nickel's radius (about 10.3mm or 13/32"). This also means that any tip width greater than the radius of your tip's curvature is "wasted leather" that will never contact the CB except on a miscue (although this is only approximately true because of the way the tip compresses upon contact with the CB).

Here's the size tip you need if it's shaped like an American coin (notice that 12mm is more than you need for any common curvature):

Dime = 11/32" or 8.7mm
Penny = 3/8" or 9.5mm
Nickel = 13/32" or 10.3mm
Quarter = 15/32" or 11.9mm

TOO MUCH INFORMATION SECTION:

You can see this for yourself with a little thought and imagination (and too much coffee):

When your tip contacts the CB, the contact point for both the tip and the CB are the same number of degrees from center. For instance, if the CB contact point is dead center, then the tip contact point is also dead center. And if the CB contact point is 10 degrees from dead center, then the tip contact point is also 10 degrees from its center (in the opposite direction, of course). And so forth.

This is true even though the CB is a bigger sphere and the tip is (part of) a smaller sphere, and it doesn't matter what the difference is in their sizes. It's true for a CB and an object ball, a CB and a tip, and even for a planet and a pea.

The miscue limit on the CB is halfway from the CB's center to its edge, viewed from straight on. This is 30 degrees from center. So when you apply maximum spin on the CB, your tip's contact point is also 30 degrees from its center - which is also halfway from the tip's center to its edge, if it was a full sphere like the CB (but the size of a nickel or a dime) - call that halfway to its "spherical edge".

See where this is headed? If the maximum offset on the CB is halfway to its edge, that's a half radius on each side, which totals a whole radius of the CB. So to be able to contact the CB all the way out there on both sides you need a tip whose surface also extends halfway from its center to its "spherical edge" on both sides, which equals a whole radius of the tip's "spherical shape". In other words, you need a tip that's at least as wide as the radius of its spherical shape, the radius of a nickel or dime (or whatever shape your tip is).

OK, I'll shut up now.

pj
chgo

 

[JimS]

...... which is why I like my 11.5mm tip with a dime radius on the Z2 and won't EVER change It really help me to play more precisely than playing with a larger tip... because I can better see the exact spot where the tip will contact the cb.

I don't know squat about physics so I get confused by the language... but I see the logic. Thanks Patrick.

 

[Handsumm]

When your tip contacts the CB, the contact point for both the tip and the CB are the same number of degrees from center.

True...alternate interior angles are equal.

You made some very valid points in your argument PJ. Sound reasoning.

I still stand by my experience on the topic of feel, however.

I do use a small (for pool) diameter tip, and I do feel that larger than say 12mm is unnecessary and rather difficult after getting used to a smaller shaft. But the difference between 12 and 11mm is almost as pronounced in my opinion.

A thinner shaft is much more "whippy" usually, and can lead to an increased shot difficulty. That is why the spliced shafts have become so much more common.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

belmicah:
I do use a small (for pool) diameter tip, and I do feel that larger than say 12mm is unnecessary and rather difficult after getting used to a smaller shaft.

I use a 10mm tip (looks like a snooker tip except for the ferrule) and when I use another stick it feels like I'm using a baseball bat. But I notice that with a bigger tip I pay more attention to where the tip is actually contacting the CB than I used to before I switched to the teenytiny tip - so this is one lesson I've learned from using a smaller tip that sticks with me no matter what tip I'm using.

But the difference between 12 and 11mm is almost as pronounced in my opinion.

Yeah, it's amazing how big a difference even 1mm (not much more than 1/32") makes.

A thinner shaft is much more "whippy" usually, and can lead to an increased shot difficulty.

I don't know about increased shot difficulty, but I definitely like a stiffer shaft. That's why I had my teenytinytipped shafts made with conical (not pro) tapers. I also had them hollowed out for the first 6 or 8 inches for lower squirt (go ahead and sue me, Predator), which didn't seem to make any difference in the hit.

That is why the spliced shafts have become so much more common.

I guess that's part of it - "radial consistency" is also supposed to be another part of it. But being a cynic I think the main reason is that they don't have to be so selective about the quality of the maple they use for laminated shafts. They probably get about the same radial consistency with laminated lower-grade maple as they can get with one-piece shafts made from higher-grade maple. "Follow the money."

pj
chgo