8-Ball League Scoring Question

K

Keith Buck

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last night this situation came up:

Player A broke and didn't sink any balls. Player B called a high ball, and sank it but in the process knocked the 8-ball into another pocket.

Since the high ball wasn't pocketed on a legal shot we finally decided that the score should be 10-0 because Player A would have still had an open table and could have picked high if the game had continued. Some of the players felt that the score should have been 10-1 because Player B sank a ball.

I couldn't find this situation in the old BCA rule book I had in my case.

Opinions?
 
I don't believe you would get credit for a ball sank before you legally declared the stripes, and since the game ended on that foul, it is the winners' choice. 10-0 is how I would have scored it, not 10-1
 
ssminn said:
Making the 8 is a loss of game, it is not a foul and he will get credit for the stripe he made.
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So if he sank the stripe, the 8, AND scratched, it would be 10-0?
 
10-1

Making the 8 out of turn does not negate the ball player B made.

Player B loses the game, but gets credit for any balls he pocketed whether they drop prior to or after the 8; or in the correct pocket or not.

Let's say player B pockets the 8 to win the game and accidentally makes one of player A's balls during the same shot. Player A gets credit for all pocketed balls and gets to count the last one made even though it was the final shot that ended the game.

The BCA and ACS do not allow us to pull balls from the pockets except for when a player knocks one in inadvertantly. (Elbow, hand, butt of cue. shirt sleeve etc)

As long as the cue ball is struck first...Ball goes down it's a point. Ball goes down in the wrong hole, it's loss of turn but still a point. Ball goes down on a cue ball foul. It's loss of turn and ball in hand but the ball stays down thus resulting in a point. Ball goes down on an illegal shot (ie: uses the 8 to combo his ball in or something like that) again...loss of turn, ball in hand but still a point if he pockets one of his balls.

I dont think this was not an illegal shot. He made a legitimate call, a legitimate hit and pocketed the ball, but managed to drive the 8 ball in to lose the game.

Score= 10-1
 
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Wrong... 10-0

Solid or Stripes isn't determinded until a legal shot is made (and completed... i.e. no scratch)

Haven't you ever made the ball you called (after a legal break), but on that shot, also scratched?..... In that case, the table is still open for your oponent...

Which is the same case as making making the 8 and and your called ball on the first shot ....

10-0
 
eastcoast_chris said:
Solid or Stripes isn't determinded until a legal shot is made (and completed... i.e. no scratch)

Haven't you ever made the ball you called (after a legal break), but on that shot, also scratched?..... In that case, the table is still open for your oponent...

Which is the same case as making making the 8 and and your called ball on the first shot ....

10-0
Click to expand...

I was way wrong by saying it counted if it went in the wrong pocket. That would not have counted in his favor since it would not have determined which balls were his. I was pointing out all the ways you can get points, but I did get off topic with my examples. So, your argument on that point is dead on.

A scratch is a totally different animal in this regard and you are correct regarding a scratch.

According to the ACS and BCA, Pocketing the 8 out of turn is not a cue ball foul nor is it considered an illegal shot. It is loss of game.

We had this happen at a state wide tournament about 3 years ago. Not that it mattered much, because it was a race to 13 and score meant nothing. But, after a lot of discussion among ourselves and the other team, we asked the ref how that would have scored in regular league play and his response is below.

"Since he made his ball where he called it without committing a cue ball foul, he would get the credit for the ball he pocketed before losing the game".

Therefore, and I didn't write the rules, the fact that player B pocketed the 8 out of turn on the same shot cost him the game; but, not the stripes.
 
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Thanks for all the answers. The score does seem to hinge on whether or not sinking the eight is ruled as a legal or illegal shot.
 
Ooops

Frankenstroke said:
You don't get credit for a ball made on an illegal shot. 10-0.
Click to expand...

There are cases where you get credit for an illegally pocketed ball. Such as, in Vegas, we needed 1 ball to cinch the match. Our player was hooked, but had a dead combination using the opponents ball. It's a foul, but the ball stays down and we won the set. That happens quite a bit in team competitions.
As for this instance, it should be 10-0. Had the 8 not been made, the opponent would still have an open table. Much like making the 8 and scratching on the break, and pocketing 2 of each group. It's still a 10-0 score.
 
Warning: Pet peeve - read at your own risk...

That's the thing about ball counting systems... There are numerous quirky scenarios that come up (i.e. the one that started this thread).

I understand that ball counting CAN be useful as an estimate to player's ability. Yet, simutaneously ball counting can have numerous situations where the count can show little to no reflection on the player's true ability (i.e. a different viewpoint of the same example that started this thread).

Understandably, the numbers can work themselves out in the long-run to some degree. But the strange quirks can have a quite noticeable effect in numerous different ways.
 
satman said:
There are cases where you get credit for an illegally pocketed ball. Such as, in Vegas, we needed 1 ball to cinch the match. Our player was hooked, but had a dead combination using the opponents ball. It's a foul, but the ball stays down and we won the set. That happens quite a bit in team competitions.
As for this instance, it should be 10-0. Had the 8 not been made, the opponent would still have an open table. Much like making the 8 and scratching on the break, and pocketing 2 of each group. It's still a 10-0 score.
Click to expand...
Another good example of sed quirky situations inspiring the pet peeve...
 
satman said:
There are cases where you get credit for an illegally pocketed ball. Such as, in Vegas, we needed 1 ball to cinch the match. Our player was hooked, but had a dead combination using the opponents ball. It's a foul, but the ball stays down and we won the set. That happens quite a bit in team competitions.
As for this instance, it should be 10-0. Had the 8 not been made, the opponent would still have an open table. Much like making the 8 and scratching on the break, and pocketing 2 of each group. It's still a 10-0 score.
Click to expand...


Why would the opponent get to shoot at an open table if the 8 ball had not fell on this shot?? Player B did not scratch and he made the striped ball in the pocket he called.
 
You're right... the opponent wouldn't get to shoot... Unless some foul occurred.

Ultimately, I think the point was that the stripe was made and simultaneously a foul or game losing situation occurred. Thus, it makes sense that the shot (in either case) doesn't count for the shooter. So 10-0 is the more appropriate result.

AND, in the same post, he made reference to an issue separate from this one. Whereby a player intentionally fouls in order to make a stripe for the sole purpose of gaining a ball count / point for a win with the scoring method. This is despite the fact that the shot (except in special case scenarios) is generally not in accordance with normal 8 ball play and really only makes sense due to quirks with the ball count scoring method.
 
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Since the BCA and ACS Rule books both clearly state that pocketing the 8 ball out of turn is not a foul, but is loss of game; player B claimed stripes and lost the game at the same time. Incidental contact with another ball, after you have made a legal hit (Which player B did) or made a legal shot (which player B did) does not constitue a foul of any kind.

Look at it this way...say he pocketed his striped ball and at the same incidentally sunk a solid.

Does he lose his shot? Of course not because there is no cue ball foul and he pocketed his ball.

Does it negate that he made his ball in the called pocket? Absolutely not because there was no cue ball foul.

Does he have to choose between solid or stripe now? No, he is the stripes because that's the suit he pocketed legally without a cue ball foul.

The only difference (only in terms of fouling) between pocketing that 8 on the shot as opposed to one of his opponents balls, is the 8 costs him the game. It does not, however, cost him the initial shot or the point.

Now, had he made the stripe, then the 8 and proceeded to scratch...then it would have been a 10-0 game because nothing was pocketed without a foul.
 
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Just saying... splittin some mighty fine hairs...

Whether it's in accordance with the rules as written... Either way... slicing it quite thin...

Just sayin...
 
Just sayin...

If you make a ball and your cue ball scratches... you say that the ball made doesn't count and it's a foul.

Now if you make a ball and the cue ball heads towards the pocket and instead of it going in hits the 8 ball which is sitting in the pocket. So the 8 ball saves the cue ball from going in.
So now in this instance the ball pocketed does all of a sudden count.
The exact same shot, but because the 8 ball goes in and thus stops the cue ball from going in, then an additional point is awarded to the shooter. Doesn't make sense to reward this sort of reckless and game losing play.

Now expanding this out to worst case scenario... much similar to the example already given by satman. Let's say the 8 ball is sitting in the pocket but inside the tit on one side of the pocket. The shooter has a stripe which is lined up for that pocket and can be made, but has a high probability of making the 8 as well. As Satman said, if your team only needs 1 point, then it makes sense to shoot the stripe into that pocket, even if the 8 goes in as well.

If the rules of the ball counting system accounts for that ball as legally pocketed, then it's a flaw and it's dumb. That's the point...
 
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I had this exact situation occur last Monday night in league. Unfortunately I was the one who made the shot and kicked out a trouble ball but the trouble ball kicked into the 8 at just the right angle it sent the 8 ball into the side pocket. :mad: We had a rule in our rulebook which covered it and I lost 10-0. That's the only time in all my years of playin that I could remember that happening to me. It sucked. :mad: At least I made up for it in the next 2 games by beating my opponent 10-2, and 10-0. :)
 
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