8-ball stats to track?

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ldl01031

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Hey folks. What 8-ball stats do you think would be good to track? That is, similar to Accu-Stats TPA -- a match performance rating. My understanding is that Pat never came up with a formula he liked so... what makes sense? It would seem all the rotation stats TPA collects (position errors, etc.), would still apply to 8-ball (though not necessarily calculating TPA the same). What stats would you track?

(note: I'm writing an app that allows tracking your TPA, plus scoring Dr. Dave's BU Exam 1, etc.).
 
In APA 8-ball scoresheet, they track innings, time-outs, 8-ball made on the break, 8-ball break and run, defensive shots, and match points.
 
In APA the number of innings less safeties essentially counts the number of missed shots in the game which strikes me as the key to statistical tracking in 8 ball. Of course, there can be some question as to whether a shot is a safety, how to assess a two-way shot, etc. Tracking the number of balls made on the break could be helpful. I’ve also thought there should be a mechanism to account for trying to kick into a ball just for the sake of getting a good hit on one of your own balls and not giving up ball in hand as opposed to hooking or tying up an opponent. That shot doesn’t truly have a defensive component and shouldn’t be called a safety. There ought to also be a way to count unsuccessful safeties but you get into ”degrees of unsuccessfulness” which could cause disagreement. Forgive the rambling. These are just thoughts off the top of my head.
 
I keep score (APA). A lot. I compare my sheet to my opposing team’s. Marking safeties is hardly ever done. I do it. I’d venture to say that way better than 90% of safeties are not recorded. Especially when trying to avoid BIH after being hooked. Per APA, INTENT is key. When a 3 or 4, maybe even a 5, is trying to get a good hit after being snookered, intent is usually very decidedly NOT to pocket the OB, but merely to touch the OB.

These stats are not captured very accurately, not even close, per my empirical observations.
 
ldl01031 said:
Hey folks. What 8-ball stats do you think would be good to track? That is, similar to Accu-Stats TPA -- a match performance rating. My understanding is that Pat never came up with a formula he liked so... what makes sense? It would seem all the rotation stats TPA collects (position errors, etc.), would still apply to 8-ball (though not necessarily calculating TPA the same). What stats would you track?

(note: I'm writing an app that allows tracking your TPA, plus scoring Dr. Dave's BU Exam 1, etc.).
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There is nothing new in 8 ball that would be different from 9 ball or 10 ball. Shots made/missed, safety errors, scratches. The league stats are not the best for "real" pool since they assume things like if someone plays a safe vs a miss they are an amazing player to do that so a safe is counted as a plus to the handicap calculation, which is not needed at all for normal play. What normal play should look as if it was a good safe or a bad one. I don't care how many times a player played a defensive shot in a normal game when looking to see how good they are, only if it was a good shot or not.

I don't really see anything that would be an improvement to the Accu-Stats stats for tracking progress or game to game performance. Mark Wilson has a point about the rating, some shots are so hard that to make them close is a "good" shot vs counting as a mistake, but his idea is hard to put in practice without having a lot of person to person opinions. Say if you do a good break, but a random ball kicks in the cueball for a scratch. That is not really a fault of the player but is counted in a scratch on the break stats anyway.
 
hang-the-9 said:
There is nothing new in 8 ball that would be different from 9 ball or 10 ball. Shots made/missed, safety errors, scratches. The league stats are not the best for "real" pool since they assume things like if someone plays a safe vs a miss they are an amazing player to do that so a safe is counted as a plus to the handicap calculation, which is not needed at all for normal play. What normal play should look as if it was a good safe or a bad one. I don't care how many times a player played a defensive shot in a normal game when looking to see how good they are, only if it was a good shot or not.

I don't really see anything that would be an improvement to the Accu-Stats stats for tracking progress or game to game performance. Mark Wilson has a point about the rating, some shots are so hard that to make them close is a "good" shot vs counting as a mistake, but his idea is hard to put in practice without having a lot of person to person opinions. Say if you do a good break, but a random ball kicks in the cueball for a scratch. That is not really a fault of the player but is counted in a scratch on the break stats anyway.
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Yes, I agree with this 100%. I had tried to incorporate 8-ball into the app a while back, but I was trying to force it into the existing "rotation" structure. I'll start this piece from scratch, and assume the same basic TPA scoring is in place. So, while what constitutes a defensive shot can sometimes be subjective, how to treat it is straight-forward. If the player coming to the table after a defensive shot makes at least one ball, then that was a failed safety (the only exception being if they kick in the first shot).

I'm just still baffled over why Accu-Stats never used TPA scoring for 8-ball. Maybe I'll find out (and I'll come back here to discuss if so). Thanks folks.
 
ldl01031 said:
Yes, I agree with this 100%. I had tried to incorporate 8-ball into the app a while back, but I was trying to force it into the existing "rotation" structure. I'll start this piece from scratch, and assume the same basic TPA scoring is in place. So, while what constitutes a defensive shot can sometimes be subjective, how to treat it is straight-forward. If the player coming to the table after a defensive shot makes at least one ball, then that was a failed safety (the only exception being if they kick in the first shot).

I'm just still baffled over why Accu-Stats never used TPA scoring for 8-ball. Maybe I'll find out (and I'll come back here to discuss if so). Thanks folks.
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Pretty sure they do use TPA stats for 8 ball, but their 8 ball catalog is not very large and in the newer matches they did not do TPA as consistently or treat it as important like they did in the 80s-early 2000s.
 
hang-the-9 said:
Pretty sure they do use TPA stats for 8 ball, but their 8 ball catalog is not very large and in the newer matches they did not do TPA as consistently or treat it as important like they did in the 80s-early 2000s.
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If you can find a single instance of a TPA being used in an 8-ball match, let me know. Sadly, it seems that Pat (Fleming) is selling the Accu-Stats catalog. Since Pat makes the TPA calculation freely available, I'm surprised others (Matchroom, etc.) have not incorporated it. I don't know if this is copyright related or just not wanting to promote a competitor.
 
ldl01031 said:
If you can find a single instance of a TPA being used in an 8-ball match, let me know. Sadly, it seems that Pat (Fleming) is selling the Accu-Stats catalog. Since Pat makes the TPA calculation freely available, I'm surprised others (Matchroom, etc.) have not incorporated it. I don't know if this is copyright related or just not wanting to promote a competitor.
Click to expand...

I only have a couple of 8 ball matches in my videos but will take a look if any of them show the TPA. I think they were not AccuStats productions though from what I have, the commentators were not their guys. It may just be videos from ESPN showings or something.
 
You have 2 questions lined up as if it were 1::

What statistics should a league track to rank (and/or handicap) players ?

What statistics should YOU tack so as to figure out your weak spots and get better ?

These are two different things.

For me:: I track
a) made the shot I attempted (the way I attempted it)
b) maneuvered the CB to the next shot (the way I attempted it)
c) used the right amount of velocity and spin
for each shot.
d) called safeties that result in another turn at the table
e) 2-way shot misses that result in another turn at the table
between innings.

There is no way a 3rd party (league or stats house) can keep accurate (a) and (b) and (e) because they can't see inside my head.
 
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