A CTE test!

[Patrick Johnson]

Pah-leeze. CTE guys are the only ones who EVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER post videos of themselves running out, making balls

That's because "CTE guys" are the only ones who believe this nonsense means anything about CTE. Landon Shuffet and Stevie Moore's exhibitions on the DVD also meant nothing about CTE (except that they promote it).

You, PJ, Dr. Dave, whoever can all go through Colin's potting test or show us how many you can run in 14.1 or how many you can run from the break in 1P one time. Let's see your video.

All that would do is lend credibility to your irrelevant exhibitionism. All the videos you've posted have not demonstrated a single truth about CTE. Not one.

pj
chgo

 

[jwpretd]

John -

I'd like to go back to the relationship between placing the bridge hand and the final line of the stick.

Let me just ask a question about placing the bridge. I think of placing the bridge as kinda like driving a nail through the cue and into the slate at the bridge length. The stick can pivot in all kinds of directions from there, but the part of the stick that's right at the bridge can't go anywhere.

Do you agree with this?

That's certainly what Shuffett says on the DVD. In fact, he's very explicit about the bridge being the portion of the hand over which the cue passes during the stroke. He illustrates this using the V of an open bridge. This happens a little way into Chapter 13 of the DVD, in the same bit where he shows where the bridge (using his definition) goes in relation to the CTE line.Shuffett's instructions are to place the bridge (as he defined it) 1/2 inch offset latterly from the CTE line. This has interesting implications.

For a 30 degree shot, the CTE line is also the ghost ball line (in theory). If the bridge point is supposed to be offset 1/2 inch from the CTE line, how do you pivot to the center of the cue ball and still make the shot?

A possible answer is fairly easy to see. You are standing somewhat to the left rear of the cue ball, and your eyes are 30 or 40 inches above it. You imagine the CTE line as running from the equator of the object ball to the top of the cue ball (both of those points taken as seen from your position), and it continues past the cue ball for several feet.

Now, if the bridge is to be 1/2 inch from the CTE line, does that mean the CTE line projected vertically down to the table, or does it mean the CTE line projected at an angle onto the table (the angle from your eyes, across the CTE line, to the table surface)? In both cases, where does the projected CTE line lie with respect to the ghost ball line?

 

[JolietJames]

I'd like to attempt to describe, in different words, what Duckie was asking earlier in this thread when he talked about moving the pocket an inch or so and what adjustments would need to be made.
Instead, let's move the balls. Draw a line from one end of the table to the other, center diamond to center diamond. Place the CB and OB 12 inches apart on that line starting with the CB on the head spot and the OB more towards the center of the table. Find your cte and aiming lines to pocket the OB in the upper left hand corner. Now place the CB where the OB was and the OB 12 inches away and further up the same line as before.
Now the target has "moved", but the relationship between the CB and OB has not changed. What adjustments do cte users make while shooting this shot all up and down that line we drew on the table to continue to pocket the OB in the upper left hand corner?
Does that work for you Duckie or am I way off here?

 

[champ2107]

duckie is talking about some ridicules carom shots, we have been there already. Enough with magically moving pockets already.

 

[swest]

That's because "CTE guys" are the only ones who believe this nonsense means anything about CTE. Landon Shuffet and Stevie Moore's exhibitions on the DVD also meant nothing about CTE (except that they promote it).


All that would do is lend credibility to your irrelevant exhibitionism. All the videos you've posted have not demonstrated a single truth about CTE. Not one.

pj
chgo

I haven't read this entire (yet-another-CTE) thread, but I saw that you were posting and just had to take a moment to say that I'm glad you're back from where ever you went (banned/self-imposed exile/whatever). I missed your concise and to-the-point posts...

 

[champ2107]

I haven't read this entire (yet-another-CTE) thread, but I saw that you were posting and just had to take a moment to say that I'm glad you're back from where ever you went (banned/self-imposed exile/whatever). I missed your concise and to-the-point posts...

Can i ask how you aim when you shoot pool?

 

[AtLarge]

I'd like to attempt to describe, in different words, what Duckie was asking earlier in this thread when he talked about moving the pocket an inch or so and what adjustments would need to be made.
Instead, let's move the balls. Draw a line from one end of the table to the other, center diamond to center diamond. Place the CB and OB 12 inches apart on that line starting with the CB on the head spot and the OB more towards the center of the table. Find your cte and aiming lines to pocket the OB in the upper left hand corner. Now place the CB where the OB was and the OB 12 inches away and further up the same line as before.
Now the target has "moved", but the relationship between the CB and OB has not changed. What adjustments do cte users make while shooting this shot all up and down that line we drew on the table to continue to pocket the OB in the upper left hand corner?
Does that work for you Duckie or am I way off here?

I think you are referring to comments from jsp rather than duckie.

As to your set-ups on the center string, if you move the entire set-up 12" in any direction, you might change the alignment-menu choice, e.g. from an "A" to a "B" or from a "left" to a "right" and it would be an entirely different shot that does not test what you want tested. The better question is to move the set-up just a little bit, such that the alignment-menu choice is still identical (such as "A/left") for both. Then ask why the OB's should converge to the same corner pocket rather than follow parallel lines with at least one of them not being center pocket and quite possibly being shot into a cushion.

 

[swest]

Can i ask how you aim when you shoot pool?

Sure.

While standing up (before bending to the shot) I see an idealized line from the pocket (or, more precisely, from the intended destination) to and through the center of object ball and out the back. I then see a line through the cue ball that intersects the first line such that it, if the cue ball were to travel on it, causes the edge of the cue ball to contact the object ball at the exit point of the original line. I consult my internal tables and experience to adjust the second line for cut- and/or spin-induced-throw (for any side I might be placing on the cue ball). When I'm satisfied with the line, I step on it (its idealized extension) with my right foot and try to drop my cue stick right along it. After I'm down, I do a little reality check, and then shoot along that line.

Is that what you were wondering?

 

[mantis99]

Okay, but we can't apply the math unless the system is well defined. The descriptions I've seen of how to use the edge-to-A,B,C and CTE lines leave much to be desired. Just getting your eyes and body in some position, guided by those lines, does not specify where the cue is to be pointed before the pivot. For instance, take the case of cut angles in the range of about 15 to 30 degrees (edge-to-B and CTE lines as guides). Here are some possible interpretations of how the cue should be aligned prior to pivoting.

The first two (figs. 1a and 1b) show the cue aligned parallel (in actuality) to the edge-to-B line. The two diagrams are exactly the same constructions using Google's Sketchup, but seen from the shooter's perspective (roughly), and then from above (non-perspective view).

View attachment 175485

View attachment 175486

The next one (fig. 2a) shows the cue aligned apparently parallel to the edge-to-B line, that is, in the image plane of the eye (field of view). Figure 2b shows the actual cue alignment in the non-perspective view.

View attachment 175487

View attachment 175488


Figure 3a shows the cue aligned parallel to a line which splits the difference between the edge-to-B and CTE lines in the image plane (field of view), figure 3b the actual alignment (see next post - limit of 5 files per post).

View attachment 175489

These are three "natural" interpretations, I think, but others are possible. Obviously, you'll produce different cueball directions - and therefore cut angles - depending on which one you employ. And with the last two, where 'parallel' is judged in the field of view, alignment also depends on where your head is positioned and where your eyes are "pointing" (orientation of the optic axis).

In order to look at the mathematics underlying it, these things have to be specified. As far as I know, they're very loose ends as the system now stands. That's not to say that the math will contradict the logical arguments presented by Patrick, Jsp, Atlarge, etc. If you clearly define the cue's pre-pivot alignments, because they don't take the more-or-less continuous nature of the required cut angles into account, you're going to have a paucity of generated cueball directions. In the case of cut angles from about 15 to 30 degrees, you'll only see two for a given CB-OB separation distance, one for a left cut and one for a right cut.

Jim

This is a very good post, and shows just how difficult it is to figure out the math. One other factor you have not addressed, is the fact that the OB will change in perceived size as compared to the CB when the distance between the CB and OB increase, thus affecting the sight lines again.

None the less, it is being made more complicated than it is to put into practice at the table. See my above post regarding how to get into the shot, and how to make sure you are sighting the lines so they will get you where you are suppossed to be.

One way to help look at this on paper, would be to work backwards. Take a shot that we know works to center pocket the ball with the system. Then look at the contact point needed to center pocket the ball. Then use the center of the ghost ball through the center of the CB. That would be the necessary post pivot point. Then of course move the equivalent of a 1/2 tip pivot, and you would have the pre pivot line. You could of course then look at the line as it sits relative to the sight lines used for that shot. This could possibly help to determine the relationship on paper.

 

[mantis99]

If this "adjustment" isn't part of the system, then how can anyone call it a center ball system?

Its called a center pocket system (not center ball-I assume that was an error) because when performed correctly, it puts the OB into the center of the pocket, location A in your example. If it is designed to do that, why in the world would it need to be able to put the OB at location B to be a center pocket system without the user first making an adjustment?

 

[mantis99]

I'd like to attempt to describe, in different words, what Duckie was asking earlier in this thread when he talked about moving the pocket an inch or so and what adjustments would need to be made.
Instead, let's move the balls. Draw a line from one end of the table to the other, center diamond to center diamond. Place the CB and OB 12 inches apart on that line starting with the CB on the head spot and the OB more towards the center of the table. Find your cte and aiming lines to pocket the OB in the upper left hand corner. Now place the CB where the OB was and the OB 12 inches away and further up the same line as before.
Now the target has "moved", but the relationship between the CB and OB has not changed. What adjustments do cte users make while shooting this shot all up and down that line we drew on the table to continue to pocket the OB in the upper left hand corner?
Does that work for you Duckie or am I way off here?

The answer to this comes straight from the video. In the self study section, if you have the video, Stan shows a diagram in which he shows multiple shots down the same line, and the needed changes in sight lines and pivots required for each shot. Look at the video in that section and you will see what I am talking about.

 

[jsp]

Enough with magically moving pockets already.

Its called a center pocket system (not center ball-I assume that was an error) because when performed correctly, it puts the OB into the center of the pocket, location A in your example. If it is designed to do that, why in the world would it need to be able to put the OB at location B to be a center pocket system without the user first making an adjustment?

Moving the pocket simply changes the cut angle for a given CB/OB alignment. Both of you have conceded that CTE doesn't work for this situation (unless you apply an "adjustment" that isn't part of the system).

You don't think it's possible to change the cut angle of a shot for a given CB/OB alignment, while also keeping the pocket stationary? And if it is possible, then what does that say about the "center pocketness" of your system? You want me to show you?

EDIT: Whoops, I missed Joliet James and AtLarge's posts showing this.

 

[champ2107]

Sure.

While standing up (before bending to the shot) I see an idealized line from the pocket (or, more precisely, from the intended destination) to and through the center of object ball and out the back. I then see a line through the cue ball that intersects the first line such that it, if the cue ball were to travel on it, causes the edge of the cue ball to contact the object ball at the exit point of the original line. I consult my internal tables and experience to adjust the second line for cut- and/or spin-induced-throw (for any side I might be placing on the cue ball). When I'm satisfied with the line, I step on it (its idealized extension) with my right foot and try to drop my cue stick right along it. After I'm down, I do a little reality check, and then shoot along that line.

Is that what you were wondering?

Well i guess you have to be good with your imagination to shoot the way you do? lines coming from the pocket and lines coming from the cue ball and then crossing each other? Internal tables what is this? what if your off an 1/8 on these lines? How do you know when you are dropping your cue on these imaginary lines, is it exact? because they are in your imagination right? I dont think you have a clue about what your doing and with all these imaginary lines and your guessing where they intersect. This would be a PJ response. But i understand what you mean and pj would also, but he like to play games and annoy people and where he see an opportunity to pick at just a word, he will do it! and some guys are not smart enough to see what he is really doing and mistake this as "wow, this guy knows what hes talking about"

 

[swest]

Well i guess you have to be good with your imagination to shoot the way you do? lines coming from the pocket and lines coming from the cue ball and then crossing each other? Internal tables what is this? what if your off an 1/8 on these lines? How do you know when you are dropping your cue on these imaginary lines, is it exact? because they are in your imagination right? I dont think you have a clue about what your doing and with all these imaginary lines and your guessing where they intersect. This would be a PJ response. But i understand what you mean and pj would also, but he like to play games and annoy people and some guys are not smart enough to see what he is really doing.

You ask me a question that I answered honestly, and then pound me for it? What is the point of this?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

some guys are not smart enough to see what [PJ] is really doing.

Go to the head of the line.

pj
chgo

 

[mantis99]

Moving the pocket simply changes the cut angle for a given CB/OB alignment. Both of you have conceded that CTE doesn't work for this situation (unless you apply an "adjustment" that isn't part of the system).

You don't think it's possible to change the cut angle of a shot for a given CB/OB alignment, while also keeping the pocket stationary? And if it is possible, then what does that say about the "center pocketness" of your system? You want me to show you?

I think "at large" explained this point in a post above a little better by moving the balls instead of the pocket. This, however, is also on the DVD. Stan shows the needed sight lines and pivots for 3 different shots that would adjust things as you are saying. You would need to adjust your sight lines and possibly your pivot to make the adjustment.

This is a good point though, and one that I originally had questioned until I saw the DVD. I hope you have watched the DVD in its entirety, including the self study and glossary sections before making these posts, because many of the answers, including necessary bridge length changes for different shot distances are on there.

 

[champ2107]

Go to the head of the line.

pj
chgo

Pj, so do we continue in the other thread?

 

[champ2107]

You ask me a question that I answered honestly, and then pound me for it? What is the point of this?

I didnt pound on you trust me

 

[mantis99]

You ask me a question that I answered honestly, and then pound me for it? What is the point of this?

His response wasn't meant to pound you, it was directed at PJ. He is saying that if PJ critiqued your way of making balls like he does CTE, then he would say that it was not exact and repeatable. He was being satarical.

 

[JB Cases]

John -

I'd like to go back to the relationship between placing the bridge hand and the final line of the stick.

Let me just ask a question about placing the bridge. I think of placing the bridge as kinda like driving a nail through the cue and into the slate at the bridge length. The stick can pivot in all kinds of directions from there, but the part of the stick that's right at the bridge can't go anywhere.

Do you agree with this?

Yes, the v-notch that your hand forms is the bridge. The bridge hand is not the bridge.

I have made a detailed video explaining this from my perspective as I use CTE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJzD_ubW-zk

So just to be clear, the way I use CTE is that I place my bridge hand on the CTE line with the CTE line running through my knuckle, this places the V-notch (or the bridge) to the right of the CTE line. Then when I place my cue on the bridge and bring the cue tip to center ball via pivoting/shifting I am standing in a shot position with the cue tip pointing at the ghost ball center through the center of the cue ball.