a few questions......

daveskey69

New member
hi there people. i am new to this board, and i live in the uk, and try to follow the world of pool through this and other websites.
i was wondering what is the standpoint on famous professional pool players gambling??. Is it illegal, or is it an accepted part of the game?? for example, is it ok for someone like Efren to gamble?? what do the governing bodies of pool feel about this?
also, being British myself, what do you americans know and think about the British Player Steve Knight.??
thanx, this is a great forum and a great site.
speak soon
DAVE
 
daveskey69 said:
hi there people. i am new to this board, and i live in the uk, and try to follow the world of pool through this and other websites.
i was wondering what is the standpoint on famous professional pool players gambling??. Is it illegal, or is it an accepted part of the game?? for example, is it ok for someone like Efren to gamble?? what do the governing bodies of pool feel about this?

Not only is it acceptable it is almost expected.

daveskey69 said:
also, being British myself, what do you americans know and think about the British Player Steve Knight.??
thanx, this is a great forum and a great site.
speak soon
DAVE

I dont think I have heard much about Steve Knight.
Is he popular in the UK?

BTW... I have visited the UK several times (London and Teaside) and always found the English pool players to be a fun loving and friendly lot.
The rules were a bit different but the fellowship was very much the same.
And the women ... Yeah baby ... the women!
Wish I could visit more often.
 
This is a big country and every state has their own laws that fit within the framework of the federal code - Code of Federall Regulations. Some states do not allow gambling and many others do. California, for example, has some very confusing statutes related to gambling. There are card rooms all over the state and you can gamble with chips but not cash. Some games in these card rooms are legal and others are not. Slot machines are not legal unless you are in an Indian casino. If two players are in a pool room and two cops are sitting at a nearby counter having lunch, the two players would be wise not to openly gamble in front of them. In other words, the answer to your question is mostly yes but sometimes no depending on where you are and what the circumstances are.
 
I think in most states it is okay to gamble playing pool as long as it is just between the two players. They are betting on skill. I think it only becomes illegal when people on the side start betting. That's just what I have heard.

Steve Knight is a great player. He hasn't been around much. I played him about 2 years ago. We played snooker and I got a really big spot. He beat me a few games. He is a really nice guy.

Sarah
 
Not according to state laws

sarahrousey said:
I think in most states it is okay to gamble playing pool as long as it is just between the two players. They are betting on skill. I think it only becomes illegal when people on the side start betting. That's just what I have heard.

Steve Knight is a great player. He hasn't been around much. I played him about 2 years ago. We played snooker and I got a really big spot. He beat me a few games. He is a really nice guy.

Sarah

Most states , including California, consider pool a game of chance not skill that is why it is illegal to gamble on pool even between two players. You and I know pool is a game of skill but in every game there is an element of chance so the states use that to keep you from gambling at it. Same goes with golf. Thats why business owners post no gambling signs in their pool rooms, so they have no control over what two people do. Card rooms are allowed because they are licensed establishments approved by the state although poker is considered a game of chance also.
 
nfty9er said:
Most states , including California, consider pool a game of chance not skill that is why it is illegal to gamble on pool even between two players.

I think that is incorrect information. According to the Legal Research Foundation (leading law research foundation) and the opinion of 4 major law firms whose specialty is gaming/gambling:
"pool, a game based on SKILL between opponents is not considered a conflict of any gaming or gambling statute, provided the opponents are wagering between themselves only and based on the outcome of their skilled abilities".

I believe 3 or 4 states have made it illegal (Florida is one, California is not).

You may get charged for gambling but it is unlikely it would hold up in court, one of the top defense lawyers in Cal. is a poolplayer and he would defend it in court and is sure he would win.

They arrested a bunch of players at North Hollywood Billiards a number of years ago and then they were all let go and not charged with anything and I think the cops who arrested them were ridiculed. Since then I have never heard of there ever being an arrest or threat of arrest.

Wayne
 
Steve Knight came in to a pool room a while back in Alabama of all
places and a couple of us knew who he was.
He asked a guy to play some 8 ball and they did.
For 20 a game and then 50.
Steve just could not beat the guy. Maybe he was in the stall at the beginning and just could not find a gear afterwards but he just could not
win. I think he lost a couple or a few games and left.
After they got done playing he asked a couple of us where he might
find some other people to play. We told him but as he was leaving
I remembered another place he might be able to match up and called
out his name. He turned and asked if we had known who he was
and we replied yes. He was shocked. He had came in and gotten the game with the exact person he wanted (a little luck there) and still did not win.
The guy he played told him he was just giving him some action and that
no matter who it was they still had to beat him.
Steve seemed like a pretty nice guy and he stuck around for about an hour
talking a little.
He had just been in Florida and was passing through and was going back over the pond soon.
 
Welcome Dave! I'm a UK ex-pat whose been living out in the wilds of darkest Southern California for 6 years now. It's 6000 miles from the nearest decent cup of tea, and don't even get me started on what they call "Cider" round here.

I used to play UK 8 Ball in pubs and clubs around London and the pool scene here is very different. (At least different from how it was 6 years ago, I understand there's been some big changes with 9 ball taking off in the UK over the last few years)

Gambling is much more part of the general pool scene here than in the UK. There are plenty of bars with casual social players like the UK who either don't gamble or play for very low stakes, but go into almost any organized Pool Hall and you'll find people who regularly play for money, and others who hang around on the sidelines beting on other people playing. You can find "name" Pro players playing for money if you look for them. especially if you visit Pool halls when tournaments are running with large prize funds. (Anything $1000 or over will typically attract the best local players, some of whom may play at a Pro level.)

Pro players succesful enough to make regular TV appearances in general have a good income from sponsorship and endorsements so do not have to rely on gambling as a source of income. Unfortunately at present the number of male pro players in this category is very small. (Just look at the Pro player tournament earnings on this website to get an idea of how little money there is in the US game)

Lower-end Pro players (Men anyway) have a pretty limited choices in the US. They can gamble on private games for money as their sole source of income, which involves a lot of hassle, travel and risk, and once your skill level is know you will be expected to give up substantial handicaps to other non-Pro players. Generally you have to have a financial backer(s) to make this work, and they will take a cut of course.

They can play in Pro tournaments regularly, but as the payouts are low you have to play in a lot to make a living, which again involes lots of hassle, travel and risk.

Therefore a lot of good players with a Pro-quality game have to compromise, holding down "Real" jobs and playing part-time, picking up occasional money games and playing in local tournaments but not travelling. As a consequence a lot of good local players will never make it to major tournaments and have a shot at the big titles, so you'll never hear of them.

Finally there are players who are not very good but love the action. These players might setup games with much better players but with a large handicap. Negotiating the handicap is a skill some people can master to a much higher level than their pool shooting skill.

Some players, notably the Philipine players like Reyes, Bustamante and Parica grew up playing nothing but money games and feel it was integral in their development as top players. You know that because they became succesful and give interviews. However you never hear about all the players who ended up peniless on the streets because of gambling, because those guys don't get interviewed in the press.

If you are interested in learning more about the US scene I recommend you read the excellent "Playing Off The Rail" by David McCumber. (You should be able to get it from Amazon.co.uk if you can't find it in a local book store.)

I've never seen Steve Knight play. He was on the Mosconi Cup squad a few years ago, I guess he's been dropped in favor of stronger European players like Souquet and Immonen. I did get to go to Vegas for the Mosconi Cup last year and got watch Steve Davis beat Earl Strickland 5-0. Now that was a good time!

If you ever make over this side of the Pond send me an message, maybe we can play a frame or two.

Aunty Dan
 
Sorry Not Incorrect

wayne said:
I think that is incorrect information. According to the Legal Research Foundation (leading law research foundation) and the opinion of 4 major law firms whose specialty is gaming/gambling:
"pool, a game based on SKILL between opponents is not considered a conflict of any gaming or gambling statute, provided the opponents are wagering between themselves only and based on the outcome of their skilled abilities".

I believe 3 or 4 states have made it illegal (Florida is one, California is not).

You may get charged for gambling but it is unlikely it would hold up in court, one of the top defense lawyers in Cal. is a poolplayer and he would defend it in court and is sure he would win.

They arrested a bunch of players at North Hollywood Billiards a number of years ago and then they were all let go and not charged with anything and I think the cops who arrested them were ridiculed. Since then I have never heard of there ever being an arrest or threat of arrest.

Wayne

Opinions are not law. According to the law in California, a game of skill can have no chance in it. So technically it would be illegal to gamble on pool.
You are right about being charged. It would probably never happen.
The governments interpretation is that any game that has a slight probability of chance, even as little as 5 percent then it is not a game of skill. The statute in Calif. requires any gaming establishments to be licensed and they approve the games allowed.
Excluded are horse racing, bingo, and the lottery.

So technically it is the law.
But I won't bet you, its probably illegal.
 
yea

hi aunty dan. nice to meet a fellow brit. thanx guys for all the info on gambling. I was also kind of wondering what authorities like the UPA and BCA felt about gambling, and if they had any rules on it.
As for Steve Knight, i guess no one knows too much about him. i have a feeling he played the Derby City Classics in 2000 or 2001. anyone else know or have met this guy?
as for pool in the uk, its mainly 8ball. Pub 8 ball. small table with the red and yellow balls instead of spots and stripes.
9 ball is popular and there is a uk tour and a few of the british players have played over there in the usa recently, i think maybe at the big apple 9 ball event. i try and tell my friends about playing 9 ball or straight pool, even one pocket. but most average pool shooters over here play 8 ball. weird, because most people i know end up both needing the black to win, and taking about 20 minutes to pocket it. LOL.
Aunty Dan, i do have that book by David Mccumber. i am actually re-reading it for the second time. i love it.
oh well, thanks for all the information. much appreciated.
see you around the board.
 
Rickw said:
If two players are in a pool room and two cops are sitting at a nearby counter having lunch, the two players would be wise not to openly gamble in front of them. In other words, the answer to your question is mostly yes but sometimes no depending on where you are and what the circumstances are.

That's why you won't put money at stake, but use jellybeans instead :D
 
On TV all you see are Pros in 9 Ball Tournaments on 9' tables, but there are still millions of people who only ever play 8 Ball in bars on 7' tables just like the UK. 9 Ball in the US is very much in the same position as Snooker in the UK; serious players will go to dedicated clubs with good tables rented by the hour. Most everyone else plays 8 Ball in bars.

As for regulations on gambling, I don't know what rules if any the UPA has on gambling. The BCA is not a players organization but an trade organization for the industry, they can choose to endorse tournaments but have no direct say in regulating player behavior. I do know the WPBA has rules banning their players from playing money games in the same town when they are playing a tour stop, but the rest of the time they are free to play for money as far as I know. I'd guess they probably have some clause about "not bringing the game into disrepute" that could be used if players get into bad situations. You might want to post this question to some of the Pros in the "Ask the Pros" forums.
 
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