A Question for all APA members

Pete

Pete

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a Question for all APA players.

Can you define what you think the different Skill Levels should be capable of, like a skill level 4 with ball in hand on an open table (8 ball) run 4 balls and out 3 out of 5 times. And please point out whether it is 9 ball or 8 ball you base your opinion on
(Or 9 ball) Skill Level 4- Player
-will not run a rack
-average run is about 3 balls
-with ball in hand, will get out from the 7, one out of 3 times
-rarely plays a successful safe

These are just examples, not what I think.

The reason I want opinions is my skill level has been bumped up from 3 -6 in this past session.

Pete
 
In my area, a 4 is just a step above a banger. He can make shots more regularly, but doesn't have much concept of pattern play. He is not a favorite to run out with ball in hand and 3 balls left. A 5 has some knowledge, but lacks the ability to execute consistently. A 6 is capable of a break and run every now and then -- but generally not in a competitive situation. A 7 can break and run under pressure.
 
Pete said:
The reason I want opinions is my skill level has been bumped up from 3 -6 in this past session.

Pete
Click to expand...

Don't worry about your skill level; It won't level off until you get about 20 games in the computer.

There is no standard for APA players - every day is a totally new experience for them at the table. LOL

In 8-ball a 7 can be just a fair player or a pro. So you can see that there is quite a skill span between them at that level.

Jake
 
SL1 and 2 - No english and can hardly make balls.

3-4 - Starting to learn english and perfect. A 4 can string together a 5 ball run on occasion.

5 - Knows english fairly well, can break and run on rare occasion.

6 - Is perfecting english, can break and run when the balls lay right

7-8-9 - Knows english very well, can force balls to lay right and run out at least 1 out of every 10 racks.
 
I've noticed that APA skill levels vary from location to location, i.e. Heavily populated area Level 6 is much more capable than rural area Level 6. You play the same competition all the time, it fugures you will "top out" at some point.
 
innings, innings, innings; that's the rating system,,,,,,if you're a SL3 and average 4 to 5 innings (or more) per game, you can remain a SL3 until the 'cows come home',,,,,on the flip side, if you accidently run a rack at the state level you WILL be automatically be bumped to a SL4,,,run a second rack at the state level, you'll be bumped again and your team will be disqualified,,,,,,are you thoroughly confused yet; well I am,,,,,,,jflan
 
My limited understanding of the Rating System is...

Inings count, safeties count, wins and losses.

Within the levels there are varying degrees of ability. You can have a SL3 that is good, better or best. Even the League Operators cannot tell you exactly how the Equalizer Systam calcs the levels, the computer says...
 
I am a team captain of my APA team, and although it's very difficult to put into words, here is the their system.

Read a cut/paste from their website about their Equalizer system, and you can see that they can interpret the SLs in a variety of ways, not always fair either. And, they don't want people to "know too much" lest someone try to manipulate the system.

Read deep and you will see the "Handicap Advisory Committees" section where you have a group of fools who, at high level tournaments, like the city tournament in Atlantic City, will watch a player, and move them up or down on a whim. We had a guy go from an SL2 to a SL3 a few weeks before the tournament, and then they moved him up to an SL4 by watching one game! Our team could not then shoot our SL7s, because of the 23 rule.

Needless to say, people were steamed, and the entire team left to play in the TAP leagues in our area.

The Equalizer® Handicap System

The uniqueness of The Equalizer® handicap system is that it brings out the best in both the novice/beginning player and the expert should they compete in a match. With The Equalizer®, it’s feasible for a beginner to have a nearly equal chance in a match against a more highly skilled player. The Equalizer® aids the lesser skilled player by dictating mathematically that he/she needs to win fewer games or points than his opponent to win the match. (In golf and bowling, you give or get strokes or pins.)
In an APA League, you give or get games in the 8-Ball format and you give or get points in the 9-Ball format. How many games or points you give or get is determined by comparing your skill level to your opponent’s skill level. A higher skilled player must give games or points to a lower-skilled player, thus evening the match.

8-Ball

1. HOW HANDICAPS ARE DETERMINED – Your Local League Office calculates and reports skill levels to the teams on a regular basis. Your skill level determines how many games you have to earn to win your match. Skill levels are maintained, calculated and updated by the Local League Office. The process includes a number of factors including the application of specific mathematical formulas to the data on the weekly scoresheets, win/loss records, Higher Level Tournament performance, qualitative judgment by Handicap Advisory Committees, and other considerations. You are asked to refrain from attempting to keep your own records as it is generally a disruptive practice. The APA appreciates your cooperation with this policy.
 
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Pete said:
I have a Question for all APA players.



This is how I feel like it breaks down in my experience regarding 8 ball. The worst person I hate being matched up with is a 4 (I am a 7) so it is a 5-2 race (I think, but I know it is a decent size spot I give a 4). The reason I would least want to play a 4 is that they are rather decent shotmakers. If I do mess up late in the rack, they are more than capable of running out the last couple balls to get out alot of the time. And remember, they only have to get two games..

By the numbers, it might look like this -

* 3's - Just introduced to the game, still will miss the easiest of shots. They generally have no idea of patterns or game strategy. Just doing their best to pocket balls. Usually do not get out with 3 balls left on the table.

* 4's - They are decent shotmakers, but dont usually play patterns. They will usually hit the first open or easy ball they see, and probably doesn't look for problem balls. They in a jam will maybe play the easiest of safes. They tend to shoot out the easy ones and then are in trouble at the end of the rack with clusters or blocked balls. Watch out though, I have seen some phenominal play from a 4 from time to time!

* 5's - Shotmaking obviously improves but you will see a 5 take much harder shots than before, so it may look like shot making ability acutally is not as good. They look maybe three balls ahead at this level to run out, but still tend to ignore problem balls and clusters. They put more thought into their safes at this level.

*** Sidenote***

Sixes are most favorite to match up with. They invariably will always try to run out, even when the rack isnt runable. They feel with their skill level, if they shoot this low percentage shot, go three rails and try to hit these two balls over by the rail over there, that it will work perfectly, it invariably doesnt. They still save their problem balls for last alot. They however will run out the first 5 or 6 balls beautifully. I dont know if it ego or what but I hardly ever see a 6 intentionally miss a ball they could make to block a hole and control a pocket. It is like they dont want anyone to think they actually missed it. I see again players running out all of their balls, just to try to play some creative safe at the end. That is almost impossible or at least very difficult to do when I have usually 6 or 7 options on the table!

* 6'S - Shotmaking is much improved. Pattern play is more developed. Comes with alot of great shots to get out - the game winners. They still save problem balls for last too much, or at the end of their pattern. When or if they do break it out, there aren't very many insurance balls for them to shoot at. They depend too much on the shot after the breakout, or shooting one of the balls they just broke out, hoping they get position on that. They have trouble knowing what is truly a low percentage shot for them. If they have made it before just like that, they are sure they can make it just like that again. 7's know the difference.

Just my .02

girlwon1
(7 in 8ball and 9 in 9ball)
Click to expand...
 
girlwon1 said:
Pete said:
I have a Question for all APA players.



This is how I feel like it breaks down in my experience regarding 8 ball. The worst person I hate being matched up with is a 4 (I am a 7) so it is a 5-2 race (I think, but I know it is a decent size spot I give a 4). The reason I would least want to play a 4 is that they are rather decent shotmakers. If I do mess up late in the rack, they are more than capable of running out the last couple balls to get out alot of the time. And remember, they only have to get two games..

By the numbers, it might look like this -

* 3's - Just introduced to the game, still will miss the easiest of shots. They generally have no idea of patterns or game strategy. Just doing their best to pocket balls. Usually do not get out with 3 balls left on the table.

* 4's - They are decent shotmakers, but dont usually play patterns. They will usually hit the first open or easy ball they see, and probably doesn't look for problem balls. They in a jam will maybe play the easiest of safes. They tend to shoot out the easy ones and then are in trouble at the end of the rack with clusters or blocked balls. Watch out though, I have seen some phenominal play from a 4 from time to time!

* 5's - Shotmaking obviously improves but you will see a 5 take much harder shots than before, so it may look like shot making ability acutally is not as good. They look maybe three balls ahead at this level to run out, but still tend to ignore problem balls and clusters. They put more thought into their safes at this level.

*** Sidenote***

Sixes are most favorite to match up with. They invariably will always try to run out, even when the rack isnt runable. They feel with their skill level, if they shoot this low percentage shot, go three rails and try to hit these two balls over by the rail over there, that it will work perfectly, it invariably doesnt. They still save their problem balls for last alot. They however will run out the first 5 or 6 balls beautifully. I dont know if it ego or what but I hardly ever see a 6 intentionally miss a ball they could make to block a hole and control a pocket. It is like they dont want anyone to think they actually missed it. I see again players running out all of their balls, just to try to play some creative safe at the end. That is almost impossible or at least very difficult to do when I have usually 6 or 7 options on the table!

* 6'S - Shotmaking is much improved. Pattern play is more developed. Comes with alot of great shots to get out - the game winners. They still save problem balls for last too much, or at the end of their pattern. When or if they do break it out, there aren't very many insurance balls for them to shoot at. They depend too much on the shot after the breakout, or shooting one of the balls they just broke out, hoping they get position on that. They have trouble knowing what is truly a low percentage shot for them. If they have made it before just like that, they are sure they can make it just like that again. 7's know the difference.

Just my .02

girlwon1
(7 in 8ball and 9 in 9ball)
Click to expand...

Perfect Tina.

BTW, you would love to match up with me :D

Koop
Click to expand...
 
The 3's are a lot stronger where I play than what most of you are saying. Here's how I see it (in 8-ball):

2 - Always a threat to run three balls if there's natural (no english) position available, but just as likely to miss a two-foot easy cut. Can be counted on to give you easy opportunities if you are patient enough to wait for them.

3 - The most inconsistent of skill levels. May run 4 or 5 of their balls plus the 8 on you in one rack and then miss three consecutive easy shots the next. Their safes usually hurt them rather than help, because they'll miss the safe and leave you an easy shot, when they probably had a better chance to succeed playing offense.

4 - Generally a much smarter version of the three. Their shot-making percentage is higher for the easy shots, but often have trouble with longer shots or thin cuts. They're smart enough by this point to leave you tough, and are better at safeties when they do play them. Always a threat to run 3 balls plus the 8 if you give them a good starting position, but frequently screw up their runout by getting on the wrong side of balls.

5 - Locks you up when they have a good opportunity to, is starting to play tougher positional shots, such as break-out shots, and can execute 4 to 5 ball runs without getting out of position. Biggest problems are either being over-confident and committing to a runout which fails, or trying to leave you safe and failing because they picked a hard safety, or because there wasn't a safety and they should have gone with offense.

6 - Always a threat to run out with a wide open table, often leaves the balls in strategic positions when he misses, and is starting to be good at manufacturing runs by bumping clusters loose. Gaining confidence, they often don't play safe when they should. Failed runouts are a big problem for them.

7 - Always a threat to run out, often a threat to break-and-run, and when they miss, they miss right by leaving balls blocking pockets, or playing safe. These are the players where you can't rely on their habits to leave you opportunities, you have to wait for their mistakes. And you'd better leave them safe, because they can punish you if you don't.

That's about how it works where I play.

-Andrew
 
Skill Levels...UGH!

I've been an APA Team Captain for about two years, and as far as handicaps go, they run the gamut.

Ex. If you play in an 'In-House' League, your seen more, and as a result you'll see more SL fluctuation, OR you will see players stagnate at a particular SL.?

If you play in a 'Travel League' your not seen as much, yet you could still see wild fluctuations in your SL, (based on how many calls the League Office receives about you), OR you could stagnate at a particular SL.?

My point?, I have yet to see any kind of uniformity in this process. I've seen low SL's 'luck' a match against high SL players and go up two SL's in a week! I've seen low SL's that have been shown proper safety play so they can be a 'strategic' post against higher SL players, go up in a weeks time, not because they won a match, but because they played three or four saftey's in their match. Who know's!?

It's fun, (most of the time), gives me some form of competition, some perks, and the most $$$ I'll lose on League Nights is $8.00 + my Bar Tab...

Until there's an alternative, (have no desire to go Pro), there's Leagues...some, (one), may be perceived better than others, (another), but none are perfect...

Best advice, GET OUT OF THE BARS AND INTO THE POOL ROOMS. Play Local and Regional Tourny's to stay 'Tuned Up', and get more diverse and stronger competition. Enjoy your League Night for what it is...and I'll see ya in Vegas! :D
 
The APA is a great idea to get players of all skill levels playing together while allowing players of lesser skill to compete in big tournaments against better players. Unfortunately, just a smattering of knowledge about how to manipulate the system ensures that certain people of lesser ethical means will prevail where it counts. Just like Communism, it's a great altruistic idea that will never work.

Check out the number of teams from Palatine IL that make the Las Vegas tournament every year for an example of why honest players never stand a chance in the APA.
 
NittiFan said:
I've noticed that APA skill levels vary from location to location, i.e. Heavily populated area Level 6 is much more capable than rural area Level 6. You play the same competition all the time, it fugures you will "top out" at some point.
Click to expand...

I agree that different regions will have different skill level strengths. It happens everywhere.

I think one of the contributing factors is the best player in the area. The best player in the division sort of defines what a "good SL-7" is, and the rest end up falling in place.

Fred
 
How much does it cost to play in the APA. I know there is some kind of membership fee due yearly? and how much is it a week?
 
CaptainHook said:
How much does it cost to play in the APA. I know there is some kind of membership fee due yearly? and how much is it a week?
Click to expand...

At least in MA it is $20 per year membership and $8 per week if you shoot for a combined total of $40 per week, per team.

Koop
 
Pete said:
I have a Question for all APA players.

Can you define what you think the different Skill Levels should be capable of, like a skill level 4 with ball in hand on an open table (
Click to expand...

Nope, I can't. A "good 4" will runout with ball in hand on a wide open table with only his balls left. A "bad 4" won't.

In general, any SL-4 will hold the table all night long on Friday night, as long as another league player doesn't plop his quarters down.


The reason I want opinions is my skill level has been bumped up from 3 -6 in this past session.

Pete
Click to expand...

If you played over 10 matches, and you are an SL-6, then there's a good chance you are an SL-6 for your area. If you haven't played 10, then all bets are off. The initial "break in" will see your handicap fluctuate until you have a certain number of matches.

I'm just saying 10 matches, but you'll truly "level out" at 20 matches and above.

Fred
 
Best descriptions

Andrew Manning said:
The 3's are a lot stronger where I play than what most of you are saying. Here's how I see it (in 8-ball):


2 - Always a threat to run three balls if there's natural (no english) position available, but just as likely to miss a two-foot easy cut. Can be counted on to give you easy opportunities if you are patient enough to wait for them.

3 - The most inconsistent of skill levels. May run 4 or 5 of their balls plus the 8 on you in one rack and then miss three consecutive easy shots the next. Their safes usually hurt them rather than help, because they'll miss the safe and leave you an easy shot, when they probably had a better chance to succeed playing offense.

4 - Generally a much smarter version of the three. Their shot-making percentage is higher for the easy shots, but often have trouble with longer shots or thin cuts. They're smart enough by this point to leave you tough, and are better at safeties when they do play them. Always a threat to run 3 balls plus the 8 if you give them a good starting position, but frequently screw up their runout by getting on the wrong side of balls.

5 - Locks you up when they have a good opportunity to, is starting to play tougher positional shots, such as break-out shots, and can execute 4 to 5 ball runs without getting out of position. Biggest problems are either being over-confident and committing to a runout which fails, or trying to leave you safe and failing because they picked a hard safety, or because there wasn't a safety and they should have gone with offense.

6 - Always a threat to run out with a wide open table, often leaves the balls in strategic positions when he misses, and is starting to be good at manufacturing runs by bumping clusters loose. Gaining confidence, they often don't play safe when they should. Failed runouts are a big problem for them.

7 - Always a threat to run out, often a threat to break-and-run, and when they miss, they miss right by leaving balls blocking pockets, or playing safe. These are the players where you can't rely on their habits to leave you opportunities, you have to wait for their mistakes. And you'd better leave them safe, because they can punish you if you don't.

That's about how it works where I play.

-Andrew
Click to expand...



As a former captain for many years I have to say your description is spot on for the players in my area, also I have noticed that someone who is a 6 in one state,city,county may be considered a 4 in another .Not every place is brimming with high skill level players but someone is always a bit better or a bit worse ...A guy who can run 5 balls may be a 6 in Colorado might be a 4 in texas or a 7 in Alaska if you all get my drift ??

Ratchet -
 
girlwon1 said:
Sixes are most favorite to match up with. They invariably will always try to run out, even when the rack isnt runable. They feel with their skill level, if they shoot this low percentage shot, go three rails and try to hit these two balls over by the rail over there, that it will work perfectly, it invariably doesnt. They still save their problem balls for last alot. They however will run out the first 5 or 6 balls beautifully. I dont know if it's ego or what...
Click to expand...

When I saw your description of 6's, I had to laugh. The ego thing was me a couple years ago.

I was killing people as a 5 and finally went up after an 11-2 session and a 3-0 start to the next one. Now I had been taught to play a defensive game of 8 ball from the 7's (more like 10's) that ran our team. For some reason, which I later determined to be nothing more than ego, I decided that as a 6, all my racks were now easy outs and I attempted to play that way. After my 6th straight loss, the last one at the hands of a completely inept 4, my captain pulled me aside and explained to me what he thought was going on. After some thought, I realized he was right. I soon got back to my winning ways, but it was a lesson I'll never forget.

To this day, I'll find myself debating whether to wing it or play the smart safe, and that conversation will pop into my head.
 
SphinxnihpS said:
The APA is a great idea to get players of all skill levels playing together while allowing players of lesser skill to compete in big tournaments against better players. Unfortunately, just a smattering of knowledge about how to manipulate the system ensures that certain people of lesser ethical means will prevail where it counts. Just like Communism, it's a great altruistic idea that will never work.

Check out the number of teams from Palatine IL that make the Las Vegas tournament every year for an example of why honest players never stand a chance in the APA.
Click to expand...


While I some what agree with the honesty part of your statement I think theres more to it. There can be two honst players both rated the same
and one will win 70% of the time. Its more important to learn how to win
and win inside your Skill Level than it is to learn to become a SL.

I went to Vegas last year on a dead honest team. We dont sandbag and
we try to have everyone move up in rankings. I am a SL 7 and help them with the timeouts and learning part. We had players that know how to win
within thier SL.
I am not a believer that there are an overabundance of sandbagging teams
out there. I have watched players who have told me that they are laying down and they really dont have a clue as to what they are doing.

Funny thing is that in 8 ball when a player does miss a ball on purpose or
not try and run out that they end up being in better position due to it.
Most dont realize that it helped them to have a couple extra balls on the table for options or blockers. They think they are laying down but in
reality they are playing closer to the right style for winning.

BTW-- there were a couple good teams from the greater Chicago area
in the team nationals last year. Seems like a lot of good players from that
area.
 
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