A question on a foul in nine ball

[Pete]

Last night after league this happened, and the was a disagreement about whether or not it was a foul. Nine ball, the 3 is the active object ball, it is frozen to the foot rail, it is declared frozen to the foot rail and agreed on, the cue ball is driven into the 3 ball, the 3 ball comes of the rail 3-4", and the cue ball touches the foot rail and bounces out an inch or 2 but doesn't touch any thing else. The question is, does the cue ball have to hit a different rail (other than the foot rail) than the one the 3 ball was frozen to since the 3 ball didn't touch anything else???


Pete

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Last night after league this happened, and the was a disagreement about whether or not it was a foul. Nine ball, the 3 is the active object ball, it is frozen to the foot rail, it is declared frozen to the foot rail and agreed on, the cue ball is driven into the 3 ball, the 3 ball comes of the rail 3-4", and the cue ball touches the foot rail and bounces out an inch or 2 but doesn't touch any thing else. The question is, does the cue ball have to hit a different rail (other than the foot rail) than the one the 3 ball was frozen to since the 3 ball didn't touch anything else???


Pete

This is not a foul. If the 3-ball is declared frozen, the shooter is obligated to either drive the 3-ball to a different rail or have a different ball hit any rail. This includes the cue-ball.

One thing to consider, let's say for the sake of argument that the 3-ball and cue-ball double-kissed and the 3-ball returned to the same rail. This would be a foul, regardless of the distance it rebounded off the rail.

 

[Qnut]

let's say for the sake of argument that the 3-ball and cue-ball double-kissed and the 3-ball returned to the same rail.

When I first started reading the post, I thought this was going to be what occured during the game.

Good call...no foul.

Just out of curiosity, what if the same situation occured, 3 frozen, but the shooter had an angle to cut it into a corner and went for this shot? If the 3 didn't get to the pocket, and the cue didn't get to another rail, how do you call this shot.

If the shot is played almost perfectly (that is directionally, not speed), only a couple 1000ths of an inch theoretically seperate a 3-first, simultaneous, or rail first hit. If it's that close, is it considered simultaneous? If so, does that count as your rail?

 

[Barbara]

Just out of curiosity, what if the same situation occured, 3 frozen, but the shooter had an angle to cut it into a corner and went for this shot? If the 3 didn't get to the pocket, and the cue didn't get to another rail, how do you call this shot.

Now that's a foul. The 3-ball didn't pocket and the CB didn't hit another rail after contacting the frozen ball. And it obviously hit the OB as the shooter was trying to cut the ball into the pocket. If the CB hit the rail after contacting the OB, then the shooter is performing a bank on the OB.

Barbara

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

When I first started reading the post, I thought this was going to be what occured during the game.

Good call...no foul.

Just out of curiosity, what if the same situation occured, 3 frozen, but the shooter had an angle to cut it into a corner and went for this shot? If the 3 didn't get to the pocket, and the cue didn't get to another rail, how do you call this shot.

If the shot is played almost perfectly (that is directionally, not speed), only a couple 1000ths of an inch theoretically seperate a 3-first, simultaneous, or rail first hit. If it's that close, is it considered simultaneous? If so, does that count as your rail?

In your scenario, if you cannot be certain that a foul occurred, you cannot call a foul. The cue-ball would have to obviously hit the rail first in order for a foul to be called.

 

[senor]

This is not a foul. If the 3-ball is declared frozen, the shooter is obligated to either drive the 3-ball to a different rail or have a different ball hit any rail. This includes the cue-ball.

One thing to consider, let's say for the sake of argument that the 3-ball and cue-ball double-kissed and the 3-ball returned to the same rail. This would be a foul, regardless of the distance it rebounded off the rail.

I'm going to split hairs here and say that the scenario described above is physically impossible. A frozen ball can not/ will not be double kissed into the frozen rail by the cue ball. The frozen object ball cannot leave the rail until the cue ball bounces off of it. There is no double kiss action occurring.

 

[senor]

Last night after league this happened, and the was a disagreement about whether or not it was a foul. Nine ball, the 3 is the active object ball, it is frozen to the foot rail, it is declared frozen to the foot rail and agreed on, the cue ball is driven into the 3 ball, the 3 ball comes of the rail 3-4", and the cue ball touches the foot rail and bounces out an inch or 2 but doesn't touch any thing else. The question is, does the cue ball have to hit a different rail (other than the foot rail) than the one the 3 ball was frozen to since the 3 ball didn't touch anything else???


Pete

I think someone is misunderstanding the idea of the dead rail concept, which is seen mostly in one pocket. If the cue ball and object ball are both frozen to the same rail, then either the object ball or the cue ball must reach a different rail.

 

[pooltchr]

I think someone is misunderstanding the idea of the dead rail concept, which is seen mostly in one pocket. If the cue ball and object ball are both frozen to the same rail, then either the object ball or the cue ball must reach a different rail.

It can also be any other ball on the table to reach the rail after contact!

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I'm going to split hairs here and say that the scenario described above is physically impossible. A frozen ball can not/ will not be double kissed into the frozen rail by the cue ball. The frozen object ball cannot leave the rail until the cue ball bounces off of it. There is no double kiss action occurring.

OK, then can you explain to me what happens when you shoot directly at a ball frozen to the rail from a prependicular angle? What words would you use to describe this occurance?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I think someone is misunderstanding the idea of the dead rail concept, which is seen mostly in one pocket. If the cue ball and object ball are both frozen to the same rail, then either the object ball or the cue ball must reach a different rail.

No, that is not the case. There is no such thing as a "cue-ball frozen to the rail" rule. Frozen scenarios only apply to the object-ball to a rail or the object-ball to the cue-ball.

 

[senor]

No, that is not the case. There is no such thing as a "cue-ball frozen to the rail" rule. Frozen scenarios only apply to the object-ball to a rail or the object-ball to the cue-ball.

I know, I know, one pocket games are few and far between up there, but that is a standard rule, be it among gentlemen or in a book. But may be you misunderstood me...if the cue ball is frozen to the rail and the object ball is frozen to the same rail, something (as teacherman pointed out) must contact a different rail after legal contact.

When you shoot straight at the frozen object ball, that object ball never leaves the rail until the cue ball bounces of the object ball. The object ball is basically acting as the cushion since it is frozen to the cushion, there is no where else for it to go.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I know, I know, one pocket games are few and far between up there, but that is a standard rule, be it among gentlemen or in a book. But may be you misunderstood me...if the cue ball is frozen to the rail and the object ball is frozen to the same rail, something (as teacherman pointed out) must contact a different rail after legal contact.

I admit, I am not familiar with specific one-pocket rules but this is not the case in other games.

When you shoot straight at the frozen object ball, that object ball never leaves the rail until the cue ball bounces of the object ball. The object ball is basically acting as the cushion since it is frozen to the cushion, there is no where else for it to go.

Actually, the rail bends creating a space between the object-ball and cue-ball and will act the same whether it's frozen to the rail or not. You can even hear this occurance (multiple clicks). The sound is different than if you were to shoot a frozen combination in the middle of the table (which has a solitary sound).

 

[StoneCold]

I know, I know, one pocket games are few and far between up there, but that is a standard rule, be it among gentlemen or in a book. But may be you misunderstood me...if the cue ball is frozen to the rail and the object ball is frozen to the same rail, something (as teacherman pointed out) must contact a different rail after legal contact.

When you shoot straight at the frozen object ball, that object ball never leaves the rail until the cue ball bounces of the object ball. The object ball is basically acting as the cushion since it is frozen to the cushion, there is no where else for it to go.

You da man sir!

 

[senor]

I admit, I am not familiar with specific one-pocket rules but this is not the case in other games.

okayokayokay, we can not move forward with the frozen ball scenario, but I know you can agree with this....We are playing 9 ball, both the cue ball and the 1 ball are frozen to the same rail...other than pocketing the 1, how are u going to make a good hit? That's the dead rail concept. You can't just roll up on the 1 and say the cue ball got a rail, if it happened to leave the rail and settle back on it.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

okayokayokay, we can not move forward with the frozen ball scenario, but I know you can agree with this....We are playing 9 ball, both the cue ball and the 1 ball are frozen to the same rail...other than pocketing the 1, how are u going to make a good hit? That's the dead rail concept. You can't just roll up on the 1 and say the cue ball got a rail, if it happened to leave the rail and settle back on it.

For starters, one could masse into the ball and hit rail with the cue-ball.

 

[senor]

For starters, one could masse into the ball and hit rail with the cue-ball.

and that is a given if u are mad at ur money or they call u the Magician, but in all other cases......

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

and that is a given if u are mad at ur money or they call u the Magician, but in all other cases......

Um, okay. I have to tell you, your answers are getting more and more strange. Seriously, there is no "cue-ball frozen to a rail" rule. You're just being ridiculous. I've never heard of such a call. I cannot find it anywhere in any rule book. I can site the sources that support my claim. Can you with yours? See below. This is from the BCA website. I could not find any mention of cue-balls frozen to rails.

I've played in national amateur competitions three times. I've played in regional tour events for years and have played in major events, as well. Never in all this time have I ever had anyone even check to see if the cue-ball were frozen to the rail. I'm telling you now, if someone did, I'd laugh at them.


3.38 OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball’s first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:

(a) A ball being pocketed, or;

(b) The cue ball contacting a cushion, or;

(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;

(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot.

 

[StoneCold]

Regardless what your rulebooks say, If you ask any one pocket player they will tell you that if the cue ball is frozen to the same rail as the object ball one of the balls has to hit a different rail or it is a foul.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Regardless what your rulebooks say, If you ask any one pocket player they will tell you that if the cue ball is frozen to the same rail as the object ball one of the balls has to hit a different rail or it is a foul.

Like I said prior, I'm not familiar with 1-pocket rules and if that's the case sobeit. However, that is not a general rule of pool. That rule does not apply to 9-ball.

 

[senor]

Like I said prior, I'm not familiar with 1-pocket rules and if that's the case sobeit. However, that is not a general rule of pool. That rule does not apply to 9-ball.

Go to bed Stone!

This is my last post on this JR, I'm gonna kill this thread. I respect your vast experience in competition, but you are saying something that sounds different than what I am describing. In my description both cue ball and object ball are frozen to same rail, not just the cue ball. This tends to happen in one pocket since at the beginning of the game player try to hide behind balls that are on the bottom rail. A lot of times, the cue ball will freeze to the bottom rail and the closest object ball could be froze to the same rail. If you so choose to shoot at the said object ball, something needs to get another rail, and that rule applies to all pocket pool games.

And noone with any sense would try to masse into/around that froze ball and hit the same rail. I'm pretty sure Efren did it once on an Accustats tape, but I'll play anyone but him that tries that shot for his money.