Accu-Stats Definition Help!!!

Bank2Win

Bank2Win

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From the instructions I downloaded from the accu-stats site.

In defining a safety errror it says.

As written in the Accu-Stats Definitions....

"A player plays a safety and his opponent pockets a ball during his
next turn at the table OR misses a shot that is easier than a spot shot. If, immediately after a safety, the opponent kicks the first ball in, no safety error will be charged"

What I am having a hard time understanding is this.

if Player A plays a safety but player B comes to the table and pockets the ball Player A played safe on. I agree player A, should get a safety error as the safety was not good enough if that is the correct way of stating that.

This part i don't understand "OR" misses a shot that is easier than a spot shot.

Who missed a shot easier than a spot shot? Player B does after player A plays the safety or Player A misses a shot that is easier than a spot shot after player B hits the ball to which player A played the safety on.

Does this mean that if player A plays a safety and leaves a shot for Player B that is easy than a spot shot but player B does not make that shot Player A left after the safety would then be credited with a safety Error. This does not make any sense to me. Wouldn't Player A only be issued a safety error if Player B made the shot?

Then the last part of the definition states

"If, immediately after a safety, the opponent kicks the first ball in, no safety error will be charged"

Doesn’t' this say the say the same thing as the first section of definition.

"and his opponent pockets a ball during his next turn at the table"

Why does Player A in the first section of the definition get charged with a safety error but not in the last section of the definition?

Can anyone explain what is going on here?
 
A safety error occurs if the incoming player makes the shot unless they kick it in....

IF the safety left an easy shot, easier than a spot shot, even if the incoming player misses it there is a safety error charged....

The idea is that you can't help it if someone kicks the ball in on you... And just because the incoming player failed to perform and missed an easy shot you don't get of the hook for leaving too much....
 
The Renfro said:
A safety error occurs if the incoming player makes the shot unless they kick it in....

IF the safety left an easy shot, easier than a spot shot, even if the incoming player misses it there is a safety error charged....

The idea is that you can't help it if someone kicks the ball in on you... And just because the incoming player failed to perform and missed an easy shot you don't get of the hook for leaving too much....
Click to expand...


That just seems backwards to me. I thought the whole idea of playing safe was to keep your opponent from having an easy shot or kicking a ball in, and therefore if you played safe, and didn't play a very good safe and left your opponent a easy shot, you should be credited with a safety error as it was an error in the sense you didn't leave your opponent a hard shot. As far as kicking a ball in after safe, and having that not be a safety error, one could argue both sides to that. 1. Safety should have been better so opponent could not kick ball in. or 2. as you suggested.

still scratching my head on the first part though...


thanks
 
In safety play leaving no shot is the nuts.... However in lots of instances the best you can do is to leave them with a long hard cut or bank.. Yes you are leaving a shot but you only made a mistake if they succeed in making the shot....

One of the principals on charging errors for misses is the spot shot.... The assumption is that a professional should never miss a spot shot or anything easier than a spot shot... Missing one of these easy shots is double jeopardy and counts double 2misses/errors... Everyone will miss hard shots from time to time so missing a shot harder than a spot shot is only a single miss/error....

If you look at it on how you will score the incoming player you can deduce why and when a safety error occurred.... If the player shoots a bank or cut that would result in 2 errors for a miss the safety error has had to occur... If they shoot at a hard shot because they think you left enough and are correct and make it you get the safety error... If they miss they get the error.... Anytime a player has to kick when coming to the table there is no error as long as they hit the ball... Making it is just a bonus... However if they do not kick it in or kick safe they will incur an error when the returning player pockets the ball.....
 
So lets say Player A, breaks the balls, makes a ball on the break, pockets the 1,2,3 ball but the 4 is tied up with the 5, so Player A elects to play a safety.

Player B comes to the table and sees that he not only can see the 4 ball, but it happens to be a shot that is easy than a spot shot. Player B pockets the 4 ball.

So does Player A then receive a Safety Error.

So after player B pockets the 4 ball, he pockets the 5 ball and decides to play safe on the six.

Player A comes to the table and can not see the 6 ball so player A is forced to kick at the six, which he does and makes a legal hit. Player B returns to the table and pockets the 6 ball.

So does player A receive a safety error for allowing player B to pocket the 6 ball, even though Player A was kicking at the six.

another question.

if player A, (different game and situation) runs out to the 5 ball and misses a shot harder than a spot shot player a is credited with one error for Miss Error, Player B then runs the rest of the table for the game win. Player A receives another Error for Position Error, Correct?

In the same situation above if player b does not run the table and player a returns to the table and finishes the game in his next inning, then there would not be error for Position as Player A actually wins the game. is that Correct?


and yet another question (Sorry).

if during a game there are several innings where both players are trading safeties back and forth, there are no errors given to either player.
 
Bank2Win said:
So lets say Player A, breaks the balls, makes a ball on the break, pockets the 1,2,3 ball but the 4 is tied up with the 5, so Player A elects to play a safety.

Player B comes to the table and sees that he not only can see the 4 ball, but it happens to be a shot that is easy than a spot shot. Player B pockets the 4 ball.

So does Player A then receive a Safety Error.

Player A will like be charged with a position error for failing to fall on the 4 properly to continue his run... This may be subjective if it is obvious he had intended to run to the 4 and then shoot safe...... As soon as it is obvious that the safe was weak and has left an easy shot Player A is charged with a safety error... Had he left a hard shot we would have had to wait to see what happened... If Player B had shot and made the hard shot we would give player A a safety error... If player B misses the hard shot or chooses to play safe there will be no safety error charged... If player A had left a kick regardless of what happens there can be no safety error.....

So after player B pockets the 4 ball, he pockets the 5 ball and decides to play safe on the six.

At this point Player B is charged with a position error for not playing position to finish running out the rack....

Player A comes to the table and can not see the 6 ball so player A is forced to kick at the six, which he does and makes a legal hit. Player B returns to the table and pockets the 6 ball.

So does player A receive a safety error for allowing player B to pocket the 6 ball, even though Player A was kicking at the six.

This is where I argue with Pat... As long as the players makes a good hit on the kick he will receive no error from the outcome... I am in favor of charging a safety error to player A since he could control the outcome with the use of speed and english... For now all that is required to not get an error when kicking is a legal hit

another question.

if player A, (different game and situation) runs out to the 5 ball and misses a shot harder than a spot shot player a is credited with one error for Miss Error, Player B then runs the rest of the table for the game win. Player A receives another Error for Position Error, Correct?
The player who ran out to the hard shot will be credited with one error for the miss and most likely a position error if he could have gotten into position that would have made the shot easier than a spot shot... In some instances because of the table layout there is no way to have gotten a shot easier than a spot shot so the position error would not be given... Player B running out the rest of the rack will have no bearing on the awarding of Player A's position error....


In the same situation above if player b does not run the table and player a returns to the table and finishes the game in his next inning, then there would not be error for Position as Player A actually wins the game. is that Correct?
player A will or will not receive the position error based on the statement above... Player B has nothing to do with Player A's position errors as position error are about the shooting player's execution

and yet another question (Sorry).

if during a game there are several innings where both players are trading safeties back and forth, there are no errors given to either player.
Correct no safety errors will occur until someone gives up an easy shot or the incoming player makes a hard shot...However it is very likely that the player who shoots the first safety will have incurred a position error if he pocketed a ball prior to playing safe excluding the break of course
Click to expand...

Hope that helps... Just glad you didn't ask about 2way shots... I argue with Pat over those as well..
 
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In the same situation above if player b does not run the table and player a returns to the table and finishes the game in his next inning, then there would not be error for Position as Player A actually wins the game. is that Correct?

player A will or will not receive the position error based on the statement above... Player B has nothing to do with Player A's position errors as position error are about the shooting player's execution

From the Accu-Stats Instructions (Definitions of Errors)

A player scratches in the pocket or off the table, excluding kicks and break shots. (obvious)

A player pockets at least one ball (not counting those on the break), but fails to win the game (rack). The exceptions to this is when one of the small
notations (‘n’ or ‘x’) are used.

Does the underlined above contradict your statement in Red.

By the Way your insight into these situations and definitions and or clarifications have been very helpful. I thank you very much....very much appreciated.
 
Bank2Win said:
In the same situation above if player b does not run the table and player a returns to the table and finishes the game in his next inning, then there would not be error for Position as Player A actually wins the game. is that Correct?

player A will or will not receive the position error based on the statement above... Player B has nothing to do with Player A's position errors as position error are about the shooting player's execution

From the Accu-Stats Instructions (Definitions of Errors)

A player scratches in the pocket or off the table, excluding kicks and break shots. (obvious)

A player pockets at least one ball (not counting those on the break), but fails to win the game (rack) at the end of this inning. The exceptions to this is when one of the small
notations (‘n’ or ‘x’) are used.

Does the underlined above contradict your statement in Red.

By the Way your insight into these situations and definitions and or clarifications have been very helpful. I thank you very much....very much appreciated.
Click to expand...

Basically it needs to be reworded as addended in Blue above ... A player who pockets the first ball and then who does not run out and win in the inning will have several possible notations... They could have a Miss for No reason which would be the small notation N.... Or the X is used indicating that they played to an intentional safety not one that had to be shot because of a shortfall in position...

Otherwise once the player pockets the first ball after the break we assume the players intent was to run out the rack and there was a positional error made that led to playing an unplanned safety or missing a hard shot....

In some instances there is some subjective decision made in the instance of playing position to a shot harder than a spot shot if it was the only available option... In this instance the scorer can forgo scoring a position error in that it was the best position available due to the table layout.....
 
The Renfro said:
Basically it needs to be reworded as addended in Blue above ... A player who pockets the first ball and then who does not run out and win in the inning will have several possible notations... They could have a Miss for No reason which would be the small notation N.... Or the X is used indicating that they played to an intentional safety not one that had to be shot because of a shortfall in position...

Otherwise once the player pockets the first ball after the break we assume the players intent was to run out the rack and there was a positional error made that led to playing an unplanned safety or missing a hard shot....

In some instances there is some subjective decision made in the instance of playing position to a shot harder than a spot shot if it was the only available option... In this instance the scorer can forgo scoring a position error in that it was the best position available due to the table layout.....
Click to expand...


yes your added wording is what it needs.. totally makes sense now.

thank you.
 
What if Player A breaks, makes a ball, but elects to play safe on the one ball, but doesn't execute the safety so when Player B comes to the table Player B has a shot that is easier than a spot, or harder, but in any case player B pockets the one ball.

Does Player A receive a safety error.
 
Bank2Win said:
What if Player A breaks, makes a ball, but elects to play safe on the one ball, but doesn't execute the safety so when Player B comes to the table Player B has a shot that is easier than a spot, or harder, but in any case player B pockets the one ball.

Does Player A receive a safety error.
Click to expand...

If a safety was played and the incoming players makes the shot in any way other than a kick a safety error would be charged... If the incoming player has an easy shot the safety error is charged regardless of player B potting it....
 
Zbotiman said:
WOW! Just think, only a few months ago this was new to you, too! You got it down, "Pat," now though.:thumbup:
Click to expand...

Bah.... I have had 8 months of assessing the streamed matches by now with it =) I would love to know what the Accu-Stats ratings were in the Tar21 match.... I know one of the AZers compiled a ton of stats but it wouldn't likely lend itself to a true Accu-stats rating...

I am still going to lobby for break errors to be included in the Accustats rating.... D for a dry break and C for not controlling whitey and the 1 ball to have an open shot.... You could actually have 2 pros play and Both shoot 1000 with dry breaks being the deciding factor in the match.....

I think Pat developed the system back when the hit em hard and hope break was in vogue... Now that the break is more of a shot than a roll of the dice it may be time to adjust the system......
 
The Renfro said:
Bah.... I have had 8 months of assessing the streamed matches by now with it =) I would love to know what the Accu-Stats ratings were in the Tar21 match.... I know one of the AZers compiled a ton of stats but it wouldn't likely lend itself to a true Accu-stats rating...

I am still going to lobby for break errors to be included in the Accustats rating.... D for a dry break and C for not controlling whitey and the 1 ball to have an open shot.... You could actually have 2 pros play and Both shoot 1000 with dry breaks being the deciding factor in the match.....

I think Pat developed the system back when the hit em hard and hope break was in vogue... Now that the break is more of a shot than a roll of the dice it may be time to adjust the system......
Click to expand...

i was that AZer who was compiling the stats, and at the time i did not know the Accu_stats formula and just did it on the whim. About a week before the event i started to build an access database to track the data and make the data entry very simple for the user whether it was me or someone else, and as it turned out the database that i started worked better than i anticipated and after talking to Justin a little bit during the event i decided that i could build the database completely to track all the tar matches. I am actually in the process of watching TAR#1 SVB vs Deuel, and compiling the stats. i have several of the TAR matches, the ones i do not have I will be asking Justin for copies to borrow to compile those stats. as far as Accu-stats, i have incorporated those stats into my database as they were not to hard to insert, was just a matter of redefining some parameters. So hopefully within some amount of time I will have all of the TAR matches in the Database with ACCU-Stats ratings, as well as alot of other stats.

I was asking you all these accustats questions because i was compiling the TAR1 and didn't quite understand Pat's System..I think i do now. " I think"


Anything that you would like to see let me know as i have designed the database structure to allow additions down the road if needed.

Jason
 
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Bank2Win said:
is anyone actually keeping ACCu-stats records anymore?
Click to expand...

All of the recorded matches done by Accu-Stats are still scored using this system. Pat usually scores them during the post production now but some matches are done as they happen so the people watching the streaming will be able to see the averages......


If you have any more questions while scoring the matches for Justin feel free to shoot me a pm or you can even call me on my mobile 8 6 5 - 8 0 3- 7 5 5 8...

Good job on the database BTW....
 
I sent Pat an email, he asked me to call him, so i did and spoke to him for about 15 minutes and he straightened me out on the all of the definitions. Your definitions were close but not exactly correct. Basically they reflect how I first interpreted them. I can explain if you would like.

thanks for your help.
 
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