Accurate Cueing

[stljohnny]

Last night I took my Rempe training ball to the room and decided to see how accurate I am hitting the CB where I address it. (I do this about once every 6 months, my playing has gone up since the last time and I wanted to see where I was.)

I've known for a while that I hit a little higher then I address it during my warm-up/alignment strokes (especially on the break), but the chalk-mark indicates that for some shots I'm way off.

The biggest difference I noticed was when I used low-left. Sometimes I was wrong by a full tip in each direction, hitting nearly dead center CB. Other english-types were dead on accurate, like high-right. Center-low became more like center-stun. high-left was pretty accurate as well. So... it seems like it's an issue related more with the low side of the cueball.

Am I subconsciously raising the hit to avoid scooping the cb off the table? For most draw shots, I do address the cb with my tip actually on the bed cloth, so I know I raise the tip a little bit during the actual stroke. Just something I've picked up over the years - but seeing as there are plenty of top players that do the same, I didn't pay too much attention to it. Maybe I should have?

Most of the time, I do actually get the desired result - position-wise - which has me even more worried, since that would indicate that I don't *really* understand what's going on. I don't want to reinforce wrong information into my brain.

Is it a timing thing? Am I hitting the CB too early in my stroke, too late? I don't typically drop my elbow during my follow-through, and my swing is very straight. I do have a pretty long bridge, which could be the issue, but shortening it feels very uncomfortable. I'd like to not change too many things at once, if possible.

I've attached some diagram examples for reference. The 1st is where I addressed the cb, the 2nd is the result. The 3rd is where I address, the 4th is the result. The 5th is an example of a good hit - both address and result were the same.

You can see my stroke/stance/wrist during the first rack of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcysjfrfXGk

Any thoughts/suggestions/comments would be welcome.

 

[West Point 1987]

It took me a long time to see it...you seem to have a very slight roll to your wrist action, twisting your knuckles in/under on the execution stroke. IMHO that's what's moving your tip to the right a little. I'd like to see what the established instructors have to say, as I used to have this problem and it took me a LONG time to correct it. Just FYI, Earl Strickland does it sometimes, too, but it doesn't seem to hurt his consistency!

 

[randyg]

Last night I took my Rempe training ball to the room and decided to see how accurate I am hitting the CB where I address it. (I do this about once every 6 months, my playing has gone up since the last time and I wanted to see where I was.)

I've known for a while that I hit a little higher then I address it during my warm-up/alignment strokes (especially on the break), but the chalk-mark indicates that for some shots I'm way off.

The biggest difference I noticed was when I used low-left. Sometimes I was wrong by a full tip in each direction, hitting nearly dead center CB. Other english-types were dead on accurate, like high-right. Center-low became more like center-stun. high-left was pretty accurate as well. So... it seems like it's an issue related more with the low side of the cueball.

Am I subconsciously raising the hit to avoid scooping the cb off the table? For most draw shots, I do address the cb with my tip actually on the bed cloth, so I know I raise the tip a little bit during the actual stroke. Just something I've picked up over the years - but seeing as there are plenty of top players that do the same, I didn't pay too much attention to it. Maybe I should have?

Most of the time, I do actually get the desired result - position-wise - which has me even more worried, since that would indicate that I don't *really* understand what's going on. I don't want to reinforce wrong information into my brain.

Is it a timing thing? Am I hitting the CB too early in my stroke, too late? I don't typically drop my elbow during my follow-through, and my swing is very straight. I do have a pretty long bridge, which could be the issue, but shortening it feels very uncomfortable. I'd like to not change too many things at once, if possible.

I've attached some diagram examples for reference. The 1st is where I addressed the cb, the 2nd is the result. The 3rd is where I address, the 4th is the result. The 5th is an example of a good hit - both address and result were the same.

You can see my stroke/stance/wrist during the first rack of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcysjfrfXGk

Any thoughts/suggestions/comments would be welcome.

I was not expecting to see you in action.

Next time video yourself shooting about 10 shots. Make sure the camera is on your open side.

Then I can examine your stroke process.

randyg

 

[stljohnny]

Randy - 10 random shots or is there a set of particular shots that would be most helpful?

 

[Neil]

Where is your grip in your hand? Try letting the cue rest all the way down to where just the last joint of your fingers is touching it. Just a slight curl in the end of your fingers keeps the cue from falling. And just tight enough to not fall out.

I was having the exact same problem, and that is what fixed it immediately for me.

 

[RWOJO]

Video

Vary the shots. Do a couple of each: Medium stop shot, medium draw, medium follow. Maximum draw, and maximum follow.

 

[RWOJO]

Where is your grip in your hand? Try letting the cue rest all the way down to where just the last joint of your fingers is touching it. Just a slight curl in the end of your fingers keeps the cue from falling. And just tight enough to not fall out.

I was having the exact same problem, and that is what fixed it immediately for me.

I had a similiar problem years ago where I would curl my wrist when i tried any power stroke. My fix was that after making sure my wrist was straight (forearm all the way to knuckles) then i'd grip the cue gently. Then gently push my thumb against my index finger. This engages muscles in your wrist that make it unnatural for you to turn the wrist.

A similiar fix for players jumping up on the shot is to lean a little weight on your bridge hand and gently push your bridgehands fingers against the table. Now it is not natural to just lift up so we don't.

 

[randyg]

Randy - 10 random shots or is there a set of particular shots that would be most helpful?

10 shots with the cue ball in the same starting spot.

How about this order:

3 stop shots (soft-medium-hard)
3 draw shots (soft medium hard)
4 follow shots with an open hand bridge (soft medium-hard)

All I need to see is the cue ball back to your back stroke.

randyg

 

[stljohnny]

I haven't been back at the table for a few days, but I had this thought about my problem and wanted to share/get feedback.

I thought about the actual physics of how the tip interacts with the CB, it makes more sense that where I address the "center of the tip - to the cue ball" wouldn't actually be where the "tip hits the cueball". The tip is round, the ball is round - I'm lining up the centers (so to speak), but when I don't hit the dead center of the CB, I also don't hit the center of the tip. I hit with the edge closest to the equator of the cue-ball, which is automatically going to look like at least a half-tip wrong - in the direction of the 0,0 axis point of the cueball. What I mean is, if I'm aiming with low left english, the section of the tip that makes contact with the cueball, is actually the top-right (as I look from behind the tip/down the shaft) section of the tip - closest edge to center/center on the cueball! Similarly, if I'm aiming with high-right, the area of the tip doing the work is the low-left (from behind) portion. And it's those areas of the tip that's leaving the mark on the ball, not the "center" of the tip as I had addressed the CB.

That's not to say I couldn't improve on my cueing, but it would explain, for the most part, how I am getting the desired results from whatever english I apply (the Clock System, for example works well for me).

Thoughts?

 

[stljohnny]

Where is your grip in your hand? Try letting the cue rest all the way down to where just the last joint of your fingers is touching it. Just a slight curl in the end of your fingers keeps the cue from falling. And just tight enough to not fall out.

I was having the exact same problem, and that is what fixed it immediately for me.

My grip is very loose, has been for a long time. It was one of the first things I worked on when I decided to actually learn how to play. It's nearly exactly how you described, Neil.

 

[stljohnny]

It took me a long time to see it...you seem to have a very slight roll to your wrist action, twisting your knuckles in/under on the execution stroke. IMHO that's what's moving your tip to the right a little. I'd like to see what the established instructors have to say, as I used to have this problem and it took me a LONG time to correct it. Just FYI, Earl Strickland does it sometimes, too, but it doesn't seem to hurt his consistency!

Johnny Archer does it too.

But you are right - there some strokes where, after I've finished the shot, I can feel my hand turned a little. It doesn't feel like it's every time, but it does happen. It's on the list of things to fix. Good catch!

 

[FranCrimi]

Last night I took my Rempe training ball to the room and decided to see how accurate I am hitting the CB where I address it. (I do this about once every 6 months, my playing has gone up since the last time and I wanted to see where I was.)

I've known for a while that I hit a little higher then I address it during my warm-up/alignment strokes (especially on the break), but the chalk-mark indicates that for some shots I'm way off.

The biggest difference I noticed was when I used low-left. Sometimes I was wrong by a full tip in each direction, hitting nearly dead center CB. Other english-types were dead on accurate, like high-right. Center-low became more like center-stun. high-left was pretty accurate as well. So... it seems like it's an issue related more with the low side of the cueball.

Am I subconsciously raising the hit to avoid scooping the cb off the table? For most draw shots, I do address the cb with my tip actually on the bed cloth, so I know I raise the tip a little bit during the actual stroke. Just something I've picked up over the years - but seeing as there are plenty of top players that do the same, I didn't pay too much attention to it. Maybe I should have?

Most of the time, I do actually get the desired result - position-wise - which has me even more worried, since that would indicate that I don't *really* understand what's going on. I don't want to reinforce wrong information into my brain.

Is it a timing thing? Am I hitting the CB too early in my stroke, too late? I don't typically drop my elbow during my follow-through, and my swing is very straight. I do have a pretty long bridge, which could be the issue, but shortening it feels very uncomfortable. I'd like to not change too many things at once, if possible.

I've attached some diagram examples for reference. The 1st is where I addressed the cb, the 2nd is the result. The 3rd is where I address, the 4th is the result. The 5th is an example of a good hit - both address and result were the same.

You can see my stroke/stance/wrist during the first rack of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcysjfrfXGk

Any thoughts/suggestions/comments would be welcome.

Yes. I think your stroke timing is a bit off. Increase your follow through and you will see and feel the difference.

One other thing is where you open and close your back hand during your stroke:That's just a bad habit that does nothing for your stroke. I don't see it directly hurting or helping your stroke. It just does nothing.

Your stance could use a little work, but otherwise you're looking pretty good.

 

[stljohnny]

Yes. I think your stroke timing is a bit off. Increase your follow through and you will see and feel the difference.

One other thing is where you open and close your back hand during your stroke:That's just a bad habit that does nothing for your stroke. I don't see it directly hurting or helping your stroke. It just does nothing.

Your stance could use a little work, but otherwise you're looking pretty good.

I have noticed that my follow-through has sort of died over the last 6 months. not sure how/why though. I'm blaming playing primarily bartable pool too much over the last year.

The open-hand thing helps me not tighten up on the cue and allow it to move level through my stroke, otherwise I end up bringing raising the butt during my backswing. A lot of people have said something about that - I guess my loose grip/open hand thing is just more pronounced than most others'?

Curious what adjustments you'd suggest on my stance. I've changed it 4 times over the last 3 years or so to try and get the most comfortable while being as low on the cue as I can, without stressing my neck. It seems like whenever my weight changes a lot, I have to change my stance (been constantly losing for a while now, thankfully).

 

[FranCrimi]

I have noticed that my follow-through has sort of died over the last 6 months. not sure how/why though. I'm blaming playing primarily bartable pool too much over the last year.

The open-hand thing helps me not tighten up on the cue and allow it to move level through my stroke, otherwise I end up bringing raising the butt during my backswing. A lot of people have said something about that - I guess my loose grip/open hand thing is just more pronounced than most others'?

Curious what adjustments you'd suggest on my stance. I've changed it 4 times over the last 3 years or so to try and get the most comfortable while being as low on the cue as I can, without stressing my neck. It seems like whenever my weight changes a lot, I have to change my stance (been constantly losing for a while now, thankfully).

Well, I like that you've given yourself plenty of swing room. That's good, but your right foot seems to be way left of the line of the shot. Maybe you can experiment with putting it a little closer to the line and turning towards the shot a bit more. You also seem to be pretty tall so you can spread your feet apart a bit more. These are just suggestions for experimentation.

Also, sometimes you bend your bridge arm and sometimes you don't.

I really, really, don't like that you open and close your back hand like that. Don't create an unnecessary crutch. You are totally capable of having a great stroke without that. Trust yourself.

And please do increase your follow through length. Take it to an extreme for awhile then reel it in a bit. Have fun with it. Pool is a fun game. Enjoy.