Advanced 8Ball Plays

MacGyver said:
Hello,

After reading some threads on where apa 5's,6's,7's play and the hitting your opponent balls in threads, I have a couple questions about strategy.


What would you do in a situation where you can't run out, have balls in a cluster that don't have an apparent breakout on(even with BIH), so playing a safe and getting BIH still won't guarentee your out.

Let's assume the opponents ball is in the cluster too, but he has a solid breakout and other than that cluster he is basically out.

What is your move at the table? Try to take over a pocket or lock your ball against his?

I understand breakouts and safeties, but I always have a hard time when looking at a table where I cant get out, and even after playing a saftey will have a terrible run at the table(however if the table is runnable or with an easy breakout with a ball near a pocket to make if things go bad, I dont have a hard time running out the table).

This for instance:
(shooting solids)

CueTable Help



(if there are breakouts i'm not seeing then ignore, as I want to talk about cases where a breakout is not easy nor will getting BIH help with the problem balls....)
Click to expand...

Let him break the cluster. Shoot the 2 the call a safety on the 3, leaving him with a possible cluster-buster shot. Can he run them, maybe...can you, unlikely.
 
I said please assume he CAN run them out... calling safety on the 3 leaves either the 12 or the 11/14 open... after that he has multiple oppertunities to get into good position for a breakoutwhich should leave balls makable for him and he runs out.

check the new table for a better situation of the type i'm talking about.

I can understand the "let him try" move, but that does not improve me as a player... I want to get better with strategic part of the game and if I just leave the table to him then I'll only win because he messes up... I want to win!!!
 
MacGyver said:
I said please assume he CAN run them out... calling safety on the 3 leaves either the 12 or the 11/14 open... after that he has multiple oppertunities to get into good position for a breakoutwhich should leave balls makable for him and he runs out.

check the new table for a better situation of the type i'm talking about.

I can understand the "let him try" move, but that does not improve me as a player... I want to get better with strategic part of the game and if I just leave the table to him then I'll only win because he messes up... I want to win!!!
Click to expand...

Playing defensively without intentionally fouling will improve you as a player. My point is LET him try to run out. You already stated that you could NOT. Games are not won mostly by people making difficult shots...they are LOST by people missing easy shots or position! "I'll only win because he messes up"...would you prefer to LOSE because YOU messed up?
If you cannot run the table, why would you make it easier for him to run the table by removing more of your balls? A leave such as the one below does not give your opponent any guaranteed run.

CueTable Help

 
Cardinal2B said:
George Fels - he says not to try to run out until you know you will run out. (emphasis is George's)
Click to expand...

This topic was discussed in another thread recently.

I think it is a poorly worded axiom, and if applied strictly would give a player NO chance to win. There is rarely a situation on a table where you are a 100% certainty of going out.

A more practical axiom would be to try to go out whenever you're at the table, but that too would not take into account situations where continuing to pocket balls reduces your chances of winning.

In the first situation drawn, you may be just 40% chance of winning the game with the layout given. So, if the runout presents even a 25% chance, I would go for it. Because of the 75% of times I mess up, about a third of those times I may move balls into positions that mess things up for the opponent and grant me another chance in the game. And of course, even if I leave the player a pretty easy out, things can go wrong for them. Even very good players make blunders with easy chances.

So by choosing a risky out, I may infact boost my chances of winning the frame from 40 to 45%.

The best players seem to go for the outs almost every visit, even when the chances look slim. Perhaps this is why they are top players and could explain how they developed the ability to get out more from difficult situations.

I would propose the 8-ball axiom, 'If it doubt, look for an out'. Meaning, that if there is not an obvious, effective, and easily managable strategical play, then look for the best way to go out.
 
Yes that is a guarenteed run... 14, 12, 13, breakout from 10 or 11, run and out.

The point is if I am playing against someone I can beat then of course this is a no-brainer.... I am talking about when playing people better than me that will make that breakout and run all day long.

I could run out the stripes, the point is when I *don't* have a breakout and when getting BiH won't even help that much... what to do then?

New questions:

can anyone provide a wei table that has multiple clusters that are terrible for your opponent but still leave the ball makable for you?

The only thing I don't like about tieing up the 6 into the 10(or any rail cluster) is that unless you have a ball close to it for a breakout, you arent in any position better than your opponent.

Perhaps if I had a better idea of the types of clusters that could be made where your ball is makable and theirs is in a lot of trouble I'd have more options on tables like these...
 
I'm not much of an 8-ball player, but I think it would be pretty tough to win a safety battle with the balls lying the way they are. You'd probably have just as much of a chance of getting out. I'd probably play the 4 in the side first and try to hit the 8 with the cue ball fairly square. You have the 2, or maybe even the 1, that you stand to have a shot on afterward and the 8 drives the 15 off the 9 and possibly into the 10 which would help clear up the 6 a little to play it short side later. I'd probably start with this shot and take my chances with the out. At the worst case, you don't execute the first shot very well. At least you still have enough balls on the table to have an attempt at playing safe. You probably won't be in much worse of a situation than you already are at that point. Best case scenario is that you break them up and get out. :) What do you think, Rude Dog? I know you're the Lake Havasu State 8-ball Champion (you know, the state of Lake Havasu). :D
 
MacGyver said:
...can anyone provide a wei table that has multiple clusters that are terrible for your opponent but still leave the ball makable for you?
Click to expand...

I would suggest getting the book 99 critical shots. This book is a study of clusters - how to make them.

Then practice setting up the shots in the book and shooting them.

There are a couple of shots in the book which are not diagramed exactly right (forget which ones). So will not work as shown. But this is a good learning experience too.

Then after doing the above, you will "see" shots in clusters.

Also play in a 14.1 continuous tournament if possible. This would be worth traveling to. These players can pick off one ball at a time from the rack while leaving most of the rack intact.

If no tournament in your area, accu-stats has 14.1 tournament videos...
http://www.accu-stats.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=007&DEPT=000004&BACK=A0007A1B01013634625B1
 
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