Advice on selling ivory-inlayed cue.

Everyone keeps thinking that ivory cues are going to go down in price. Well, most things fluctuate in estimated value over a given span of time. I suppose the only thing that matters is how much you get for your cue when you decide to sell it. Just like folks on this site disagree about the price of a pool cue, ivory complicates and energizes the discussion.

Here’s what I know to be true. The overwhelming majority of our nation’s states have not adopted any ivory restrictions.
Interstate Commerce allows for the sale of items containing ivory under the de minimis exemption (under 50% item’s volume and 199.99 grams or less). So you can sell pool cues with ivory and ship to a different state except for the 13 states that adopted ivory restrictions. That’s a wide open market that isn’t going away any time soon and likely never.

My cues have gone up in value but it doesn’t matter to me since these cues are to be passed along to my children and grandkids. I paid $2500 for my Tim Scruggs flat faced ivory radial joint pool cue. I’m pretty confident I’d get a few more bucks if I tried to sell it at a cue show in Las Vegas. Ivory is such a unique material that to this day is unmatched by any substitute and it’s use in pool cues is admittedly controversial because of endangered species concerns. However, the abundance of pre-ban ivory already legally within our shores still can be used by cue makers but not if they reside in a sovereign state that has enacted laws restricting the sale or use of ivory. Otherwise, go for it because it is still legal.

So since there are a lot of cue makers voluntarily deciding not to use ivory even though they could, and a bunch of cue makers that can’t use ivory due to their state law, less and less cues are being built with ivory. Ed Prewitt had to stop using ivory on July 1, 2016 when CA passed legislation. My Prewitt cue is not only pretty fancy but it is a flat faced ivory big pin cue. It also has jumped up in value over what I paid for it in 2010. My kids can argue over who gets which pool cue since they have to do that with my gun and knife collections. So I dunno why people think ivory cues are going to be dropping in price. The cues are always going to remain legal to own since possession is not a violation of any law. Just visit U.S. Fish & Wildlife’s website that explains ivory in detail. Nope, ivory isn’t going to hurt pool cue values and quite the opposite,

Here a point about collectibility that is undeniable and irrefutable unless someone wants to remain stubborn minded and argue differently. Two very important factors influence the price of something for sale. Supply and demand is the obvious answer but the supply largely decides the demand. I’ve learned this firsthand and so have many of the readers.

Rarity and scarcity…….that really drives up the price of something. It is just a fact when there is a limited supply of anything, demand goes up. When the item becomes more rare since it is no longer made and scarce because the ones already made are hard to find, the price jumps up and it can be a lot. Ivory pool cues are here to stay and will remain popular because no one has found any substitute material that plays like ivory. Ivory ferrules really are so much better.

Recollection Cues website has a enlightening explanation our nation’s ivory restrictions. The below is but the first page of a very detailed and thorough explanation about ivory. Here’s a couple pics of the two cues I mentioned that I’m pretty confident would find a new home pretty easily. My other cues are also likely to have gone up in value since Jerry R. retired awhile back and Bob, well, his popularity has soared since I last did business with him a decade ago.

So people will undoubtedly persist in their assumption that ivory laden pool cues will drop in price because of the ivory content. That is not realistic & has not happened. Any cue can go down in price if it isn’t appealing or plays like crap.
But it won’t be because the ferrules were ivory, or the joint or butt or inlays or rings…..that is just not the real world.

p.s. The research involved less than 10 mins and it was not only thorough, accurate but very easily comprehended.
 

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Hello all. I'm considering placing an ad for the last cue in my collection.
It has quite a few ivory inlays and 2 ivory ferrules.

When I bought the cue twenty years ago, it was legal to make and sell ivory inlays as long as
the ivory was not imported (ie from estate sales....etc) At least that was my understanding.

I am unsure of current laws? Have they changed? Would I run into trouble selling my cue? Does
it matter if I sell in-state vs across state lines?

I'm also out of touch with current cue prices and how much ivory would affect the price.
Back in the day, it was expensive but within reason. I expect the price has gone up?

Anyway, I'd really appreciate any advice ya'll can provide.
Cue Components list the parts as follows
Ferrules: $130
Butt caps: $300
Joint collars: $190
By comparison, Keith Josey's website lists the cost of a 3/4" ivory ferrule at $100+.
 
Again, do not read anyone's interpretation read what is written...

From the Federal BAN:

INTERSTATE COMMERCE
"The final rule includes the following changes for interstate commerce:
• Further restricts interstate commerce to only:
1. items that meet the criteria of the ESA antiques exemption,
2. certain manufactured or handcrafted items that contain a small (de minimis) amount of ivory.**
• Prohibits interstate commerce in:
1. ivory imported under the exceptions for a household move or inheritance, or for law enforcement or genuine scientific purposes, and
2. sport-hunted trophies.

" Selling ACROSS state lines is prohibited 100%. Regardless of the state’s permissions and acceptance of ivory.
UNLESS Rule 1 or Rule 2 is met."


This means that selling ivory from Tennessee to Texas is technically a federal crime unless the cue is accompanied by a de minimus declaration (letter). In addition, there may be a requirement to verify the dates as specified in the rule if it was requested during a confiscation.

This is why I sought out AND received the OK, from FWS, for authoring a de minimus letter. However, it will be almost impossible to produce other documents which they are requesting, because they were never needed or saved and passed on.

Billiard cues over 100 years old will meet the ESA exemption. The import rule for modern day cues is #2. Here it is, in its entirety.

** Rule 2

** To qualify for the de minimis exception, manufactured or handcrafted items must meet ALL OF the following criteria:
- (i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use.
- (ii) If the item is located outside the United States, the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976.
- (iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50% of the value of the item.
- (iv) The ivory is not raw.
- (v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or components do not account for more than 50% of the item by volume.
- (vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams (7.05 oz); AND
- (vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before the effective date of this rule. (July 6th, 2016)

JV
 
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What is also important is that California, Washington State, Oregon, New Hampshire, and Vermont do not stop at the tusk/tooth. Any part of about a dozen animals are banned. Elephant SKIN, ie wraps and cases, shark and ray (cases), any number of big cats.. CASES are also banned.

NJ, NY and a few others also included ancient ivory because they cannot tell it apart. Mammoth, and mastodon, are also off the table.

JV
 
Ernie Gutierrez at GINA Q is Ivory Expert, cost him dearly.
I'm not a cuemaker yet but working towards it. I've already decided to not use ivory, even if I were able to source legal stuff. I'm not fully decided on the ethics of it but I don't want the headache of using a material that can cause legal trouble.

I don't have anything against anyone that prefers ivory in cues but if you really think on it pool/billiards has done elephants really wrong in the past. We kind of owe them a huge debt. It's a bit like the killing of the buffalo in the US. Not good mojo to drive a species towards the brink of extinction. I attached a pic and it's pretty sickening the number of elephants used. I'm not judging here, it was different times. And yes, I know the elephants are already dead in antique/exempt ivory but I'd just rather not use it.

I hunt and fish so I'm not some kind of a tree hugger, but hunting and fishing should lead someone to understand over harvesting. We definitely did that in the past.

That said, I can't argue against the beauty of ivory components but with stuff like elforyn you can get the look.

1758978630704.webp
 
Ernie Gutierrez at GINA Q is Ivory Expert, cost him dearly.
Ernie got involved with the Laurel and Hardy of Taiwan cue dealers. You have to be dumber than a box of chopsticks to board a plane out of a major airport IN THE STATE THAT HAS THE TOUGHEST IVORY BAN with a bag full of cues with ivory in them. They both flipped and IMHO the most disheartening piece is the fact one of them was the guy from Zen cues. Zen cues should be banned from the US market. However I have contemporaries that have no spine, and would sell their own mothers for a dollar. I have seen Zen cues with ivory made after the ban, for sale in this very website, and the seller is in a lockdown state. You can't make it up.

JV
 
What is also important is that California, Washington State, Oregon, New Hampshire, and Vermont do not stop at the tusk/tooth. Any part of about a dozen animals are banned. Elephant SKIN, ie wraps and cases, shark and ray (cases), any number of big cats.. CASES are also banned.

NJ, NY and a few others also included ancient ivory because they cannot tell it apart. Mammoth, and mastodon, are also off the table.

JV
Also concerning is as we create better and better imitations of the ivory and the skins, the more likely you could get your stuff confiscated and destroyed even if it's not banned. They can easily drill into or cut up your stuff in the effort to prove whether or not it's genuine or imitation.

We can protest all we like that it could be found out otherwise but they really don't care.

Personally, I don't think one can be careful enough. The cues and cases I have with "exotic" animal products aren't going anywhere, and I am not buying any more.

I won't even post pictures of that stuff unless I already did years ago. That's why I reposted my Dayton with ivory inlays and elephant case, I had already posted those pics years ago.
 
Also concerning is as we create better and better imitations of the ivory and the skins, the more likely you could get your stuff confiscated and destroyed even if it's not banned. They can easily drill into or cut up your stuff in the effort to prove whether or not it's genuine or imitation.

We can protest all we like that it could be found out otherwise but they really don't care.

Personally, I don't think one can be careful enough. The cues and cases I have with "exotic" animal products aren't going anywhere, and I am not buying any more.

I won't even post pictures of that stuff unless I already did years ago. That's why I reposted my Dayton with ivory inlays and elephant case, I had already posted those pics years ago.
That is one of the issues I have. They don't have to prove it is, you have to prove it ain't. This is NOT how the legal system is supposed to be.
JV
 
Ernie got involved with the Laurel and Hardy of Taiwan cue dealers. You have to be dumber than a box of chopsticks to board a plane out of a major airport IN THE STATE THAT HAS THE TOUGHEST IVORY BAN with a bag full of cues with ivory in them. They both flipped and IMHO the most disheartening piece is the fact one of them was the guy from Zen cues. Zen cues should be banned from the US market. However I have contemporaries that have no spine, and would sell their own mothers for a dollar. I have seen Zen cues with ivory made after the ban, for sale in this very website, and the seller is in a lockdown state. You can't make it up.

JV


Well thank for sharing what you know about the Gina v/s US Government fiasco.
 
Well thank for sharing what you know about the Gina v/s US Government fiasco.
All I know is what is available online in many news articles. It confuses me because the April arrest, actually predates the "NEW" 6/6/2016 Fed. ban as well as the New Cali ban of 7/1/2016. So, I don't really get how it all fits together. Logic tells me this was for lack of documentation. But who knows.

JV
 
All I know is what is available online in many news articles. It confuses me because the April arrest, actually predates the "NEW" 6/6/2016 Fed. ban as well as the New Cali ban of 7/1/2016. So, I don't really get how it all fits together. Logic tells me this was for lack of documentation. But who knows.

JV
If you are really interested I guess you could look at the actual legal documentation. Even file a FOIA request.

The whole mess seemed convoluted to me at the time, and as you I only saw the news articles. I really didn't look at specific dates relative to the bans etc.

It all just made me cringe.

I am very peripheral to all that and can't imagine what it would be like for my livelihood to be entrenched in all that.

I look at what happened to Gibson guitars and cringe as well.

It all just makes me wonder: "Who is next?"

Chip Fuse got raided and cars taken, and so did other shops. Same type of thing, different genre. Overzealous enforcement of questionable laws and regulations that don't accomplish what is intended. Nothing is being "protected" by all this.
 
I have never thought that.

It's just that the matter can get complicated.

The recent ICCS had exactly zero ivory in any of the cues by agreement of the participants.
There was more Ivory on that floor than every zoo in the country.

It was just cues submitted to judging that has no ivory.
 
There was more Ivory on that floor than every zoo in the country.

It was just cues submitted to judging that has no ivory.
Ah. I see.

I was mistaken. I thought that was throughout the show. So, just the entries.

Traveling with those cues could be risky. If the feds wanted to, they could just show up and watch/follow anybody at ICCS. Am I paranoid? No. Personally I am just cautious. I just turned down a deal because of ivory today. Nice cue, I would like to own it.
 
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