And the pink is potted - where is it spotted?
We ended up putting in front of the red that covered its spot
We ended up putting in front of the red that covered its spot
All the spots covered...
- Thread starter snookerindy1981
- Start date
That is exactly the way we do it, but I can't say it's correct.
http://www.worldsnooker.com/staticFiles/40/8d/0,,13165~167232,00.pdf
20
Section 3 - Snooker
(d)
If a colour has to be spotted and its own spot is occupied , it shall be
placed on the highest value spot available.
(e)
If there is more than one colour to be spotted and their own spots are occupied, the highest value ball shall take precedence in order of
spotting
(f)
If all spots are occupied, the colour shall be placed as near its own
spot as possible, between that spot and the nearest part of the top
cushion.
(g)
In the case of Pink and Black, if all spots are occupied and there is
no available space between the relevant spot and the nearest part of
the top cushion, the colour shall be placed as near to its own spot as
possible on the centre line of the table below the spot.
(h)
In all cases, the colour when spotted must not be touching another
ball
20
Section 3 - Snooker
(d)
If a colour has to be spotted and its own spot is occupied , it shall be
placed on the highest value spot available.
(e)
If there is more than one colour to be spotted and their own spots are occupied, the highest value ball shall take precedence in order of
spotting
(f)
If all spots are occupied, the colour shall be placed as near its own
spot as possible, between that spot and the nearest part of the top
cushion.
(g)
In the case of Pink and Black, if all spots are occupied and there is
no available space between the relevant spot and the nearest part of
the top cushion, the colour shall be placed as near to its own spot as
possible on the centre line of the table below the spot.
(h)
In all cases, the colour when spotted must not be touching another
ball
Implicit in the quoted rules is the "fact" that it is not possible for the blue to be blocked from being spotted between its spot and the top cushion. Is that true?
My own feeling is that (g) should not be specific in calling out balls that may be blocked on the normal spotting side.
My own feeling is that (g) should not be specific in calling out balls that may be blocked on the normal spotting side.
I believe that this is very simply a matter of physics. Let's say every baulk color is on its own spot and the blue is potted on a foul stroke and needs to be spotted. That leaves a possible fifteen reds and the pink and black (seventeen balls) to effectively cover a straight line area that is 69" long, which is half the length between cushion faces (11' 8-1/2") minus one half a ball diameter (that is, the "ghost" of what would be the blue ball on its spot). Each official size ball will span 2-1/16" and let's say there is a gap of 2" between each ball on that centerline (so that no additional ball can fit between them) between the top cushion and the blue spot. That is 17 x 2-1/16" plus 18 x 2" (there would be a gap on either end of the line of interfering balls, hence one more "gap" than "ball") which equals 35-1/16" plus 36" or about 71 inches total. VOILA! So theoretically, it should just ever so barely be possible to spread a standard set of snooker balls on a REGULATION size snooker table in such way to cause blue to require spotting toward the baulk cushion. (Cannot possibly happen for the baulk colors unless you break other rules by playing with more than fifteen reds. Also note that the rules as written are not intended for non-standard equipment such as a 5' x 10'. On the contrary, the official rules also define the acceptable dimensions of all the equipment involved.)
Of course, in real life, the likelihood of this problem with blue occurring in an actual frame probably runs along the lines of an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters over an infinite period of time eventually writing the complete works of Shakespeare verbatim. In contrast, the pink or black requiring re-spot BELOW the pyramid spot is a situation that really does occur on occasion (though admittedly very rarely).
The correct practical answer to the original "where to spot pink" question is that it will end up on the table centerline somewhere between the pink and black spots (sometimes even between the black spot and top cushion) and that usually means it will need to be placed either right in amongst the "pack" of reds if there is a sufficient available gap, or just behind it toward black. This can make for some awkward break building so from a strategic point of view, a player should always be aware of where any given color will be re-spotted BEFORE potting it in the first place (and so perhaps changing one's decision as to which color to pot). Here is an excellent example of how a covered pink spot may cause some difficulty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHnaFWNwdqU
In very rare cases then, the pink (or black) may need to be spotted BELOW the pink spot ("in front of", to the baulk side). It should NOT be standard practice to position the pink like this as indy and renegade are suggesting/asking. (Note that I am assuming here that "in front of..." means "toward the baulk end" which is what is termed in snooker as "below". FOR REFERENCE, "top (of the table)" or "above" means "toward the black spot end". "Bottom (of the table)" or "below" means "toward the baulk end".
Last edited:
A small nit... you need to also include the cue ball in your sums, so the chances are much greater than you might have estimated.
In the referenced video, it looked like pink may have been placed slightly to the right of the "long string". I'm glad I wasn't the referee.
A small nit... you need to also include the cue ball in your sums, so the chances are much greater than you might have estimated.
In the referenced video, it looked like pink may have been placed slightly to the right of the "long string". I'm glad I wasn't the referee.
An excellent point that I hadn't considered. With white as an eighteenth possible interfering ball, the chances of having to spot blue to the baulk side are increased significantly....say, from the typing monkeys equivalent to a probability more like 1 out of 2 to the power of the age of the universe (measured in seconds); now a dauntingly serious possibility :smilewinkgrin:
From the way that Ronnie walks away at the 25 second mark in the video, I get the feeling that Michaela must have said, "This is going to take a while."
Change the "where to spot" question to yellow
There is another nuance to this type of situation that is probably both confusing and at the same time, contrary to one's natural intuition. Imagine a different scenario where all colors are on their spots except yellow. You can physically SEE the yellow spot, but there is a cluster of 3 or 4 or 5 red balls interfering with the spot near to and above the yellow spot (on the black spot side of it) but no reds actually in the baulk area below the yellow spot. Then the yellow is potted. Where to spot it? Possibly: A) as close as possible to its spot, say perhaps a quarter inch off spot toward the baulk cushion, or B) as close as possible to its spot but in a straight line toward the BLACK cushion which will place the yellow a full five, six, or more inches away from its natural spot.
The correct answer is B) even though this will put the ball much farther off its natural spot than A).
To go back to Bob's point:
There is another nuance to this type of situation that is probably both confusing and at the same time, contrary to one's natural intuition. Imagine a different scenario where all colors are on their spots except yellow. You can physically SEE the yellow spot, but there is a cluster of 3 or 4 or 5 red balls interfering with the spot near to and above the yellow spot (on the black spot side of it) but no reds actually in the baulk area below the yellow spot. Then the yellow is potted. Where to spot it? Possibly: A) as close as possible to its spot, say perhaps a quarter inch off spot toward the baulk cushion, or B) as close as possible to its spot but in a straight line toward the BLACK cushion which will place the yellow a full five, six, or more inches away from its natural spot.
The correct answer is B) even though this will put the ball much farther off its natural spot than A).
To go back to Bob's point:
I believe the reason that this particular rule specifies, "In the case of Pink and Black..." is that it emphasizes the point that (realistically speaking), there is NO circumstance in which the other balls are to be spotted near their spots but in the direction of the baulk cushion; if they cannot be spotted directly, then they must be placed as closely as possible to their spots not touching another ball in the direction of the black cushion. It creates an absolute uniformity to the rule, that is, you must ALWAYS follow a rule of thumb (black cushion direction) except the rule recognizes that in very rare circumstance, it is simply impossible to follow that rule of thumb. Otherwise, it would become very easy to misinterpret that rule as "if there is an interference on the black cushion side of the spot (like with the pack of reds), then just place the ball on the baulk cushion side of the spot" exactly as indy was incorrectly thinking in the first place.
Last edited:
To bring in the minority report:
The closeup doesn't show the black or the blue, so it is difficult to know if the placement of pink is off line.
But around 2:48 the long shot apparently shows that the pink is in line.
How could you suggest that Michaela could make such a mistake
I was judging from the pink spot which is marked and was visible in the video and the assumption that the video camera was centered on the long string. The locations of blue and black are secondary, I think.To bring in the minority report:
The closeup doesn't show the black or the blue, so it is difficult to know if the placement of pink is off line.
But around 2:48 the long shot apparently shows that the pink is in line.
How could you suggest that Michaela could make such a mistake
If you are attempting to deny Michaela's natural human propensity to err on occasion, then apparently you didn't watch the video closely at 1:19.How could you suggest that Michaela could make such a mistake
To be able to laugh at one's own foibles is a virtue indeed. Michaela Tabb demonstrates how virtuous she is in this classic if you have not yet seen it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS3enI7wKqE :rotflmao1: