Analyze This (7)

C

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Someone posted recently that a teacher once called the shots and shapes for him to make, and in doing so he shot well beyond his high run before miscueing. There are great shooters who can play 14.1 very well without planning perfectly, but their choices wouldn't translate well for an average shooter. So keeping that in mind, I think the challenge with these layouts is to make them runnable for as low a level player as possible.
Jeff

CueTable Help

 
Here's a link to the way I'd run them. Comments, as always, are welcome. This is all done as an effort to get better, so be as critical as you like. I hope you all feel the same. Pride isn't the issue. I'm looking for different points of view and innovative ways of approaching a table. Seeing how others would do it may open up new possibilities that we wouldn't have thought of ourselves. Thanks,
Jeff

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4ACIR4BOHA4CEGi4FRSp3GNKU3HHwL3IEDx3JERm3KRiF3NELG4PCXS3dEDx3dcQq4kCXS3kCHn3kEsu@4ACIR4BOHA4CEGi4FRSp3GNKU3HHwL3IcQq3JERm3KRiF3NELG3PEsu4UCIR4UdGs3kEsu4kAEJ4kFrS@4AdGs4BOHA4CEGi4FRSp3GNKU3HHwL3IcQq3JERm3KRiF3NELG4PFrS3iELG2icrH4kFrS3kCPP3kFQx@4AdGs4BOHA4CEGi4FRSp3GNKU3HHwL3IcQq3JERm3KRiF2NcrH3PFQx3bNKU3bcAr3kFQx3kLvG3kPvp@4AdGs4BOHA4CEGi4FRSp3GcAr3HHwL3IcQq3JERm3KRiF2NcrH3PPvp3cHwL4cdGm3kPvp3kKJF3kKaN@4AdGs4BOHA4CEGi4FRSp3GcAr4HdGm3IcQq3JERm3KRiF2NcrH3PKaN4WEGi4WdGi3kKaN4kBli4kBll4kBRd@4AdGs4BOHA4CdGi4FRSp3GcAr4HdGm3IcQq3JERm3KRiF2NcrH4PBRd4aRSp4achp4kBRd4kPvc4kbom1kBOn@4AdGs4BOHA4CdGi4Fchp3GcAr4HdGm3IcQq3JERm3KRiF2NcrH1PBOn4VOHA4Vchs1kBOn4kNAm4kPmW@4AdGs4Bchs4CdGi4Fchp3GcAr4HdGm3IcQq3JERm3KRiF2NcrH4PPmW3eERm2edYE4kPmW3kCFt3kTCT@
 
I can't seem to get the cuetable to work on my computer right now, but here is the pattern for me:

9, 1, 8, 3

The 3 is the only slight problem in the rack, so I would clear it out as soon as possible. Coming off of it I go right in the middle of a lot of shots; lets assume that I get on the 6 perfectly:

6, 2, 10, 11, 14

Those last 3 balls are connect the dots which is what I like to be doing towards the end so I do not lose my way to the break ball. I know that the 7 is a little low but I still like using it over the 11 due to the availability of a key ball that is basically a stop shot.
 
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Jeff, I think what you are doing is wonderful for the forum. I would caution you slightly against putting up these wide open layouts with multiple shots to choose from at every junction. I like to say in these situations that there are probably 100 ways to run these balls well (and about a million ways to run them badly).

For instance, there is a sequence where I start by playing the 9, and slightly bump the 14. Now, the 14 is laying perfectly for a side pocket break shot, with a great keyball in the 11. You could play the 6-10 or the 2-10 to get on the 11.

My point is not that these are hard to see; it's that there are just too many options on a table this open. There are 10 balls almost perfectly placed here, and you are right smack in the middle of them. This is an IDEAL layout, except perhaps for the lack of a perfect break ball.

Layouts like these, once you choose your break ball and the end-pattern leading up to it, don't need a perfectly thought-out plan this early. There aren't even any real problem balls on this table that you'd want to plan for too carefully (yes, the 8, 7, 6, and 2 could be considered "annoying" but there are a ton of ways to get them all off the table, so they're not really problematic).

Jeff, I hope you continue to post your layouts - you've been a great benefit to the forum. It's just my personal opinion that wide open 10-ball layouts are not ideal for analysis, but others may not share that view. I just wanted to stress my position that straight pool is not entirely about planning - at least not with a rack like this. I've seen players get into the "paralysis by analysis" mode this early in an open rack and I think it hurts more than it helps.

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Jeff, I think what you are doing is wonderful for the forum. I would caution you slightly against putting up these wide open layouts with multiple shots to choose from at every junction. I like to say in these situations that there are probably 100 ways to run these balls well (and about a million ways to run them badly).

For instance, there is a sequence where I start by playing the 9, and slightly bump the 14. Now, the 14 is laying perfectly for a side pocket break shot, with a great keyball in the 11. You could play the 6-10 or the 2-10 to get on the 11.

My point is not that these are hard to see; it's that there are just too many options on a table this open. There are 10 balls almost perfectly placed here, and you are right smack in the middle of them. This is an IDEAL layout, except perhaps for the lack of a perfect break ball.

Layouts like these, once you choose your break ball and the end-pattern leading up to it, don't need a perfectly thought-out plan this early. There aren't even any real problem balls on this table that you'd want to plan for too carefully (yes, the 8, 7, 6, and 2 could be considered "annoying" but there are a ton of ways to get them all off the table, so they're not really problematic).

Jeff, I hope you continue to post your layouts - you've been a great benefit to the forum. It's just my personal opinion that wide open 10-ball layouts are not ideal for analysis, but others may not share that view. I just wanted to stress my position that straight pool is not entirely about planning - at least not with a rack like this. I've seen players get into the "paralysis by analysis" mode this early in an open rack and I think it hurts more than it helps.

- Steve
Click to expand...

First, I would like to mention a few things before I explain my plan.

bluepepper - I think that an experienced player may be and should be able to make the 9 ball by "spinning" it in as you show in your post. But, I think the natural movement of a novice player would be to shoot in the 9 and bump the 14. I think there is too much, (although slight) angle there to be able to miss the 14 without spinning the 9 in the pocket. JMO.

jjr183 - I hope you mean to shoot some other ball besides the 1 first. Maybe 9-1?

Steve - please look over this pattern that I propose. You are correct, this table, although quite open, is subject to "paralysis by analysis" which I think I have may fallen victim to. Many ways to run this rack and now when you mentioned using the 2 to get to the 10, I see other patterns available.

I guess on page 4, I could have taken the 7 first, then go 6, 8, 3, 2, and then 10 to get on the 11. That possibly could change as position on the WEI is a lot better than my position on the actual table...:D I only show 8 pages because if I post all 9, all the pages do not post. There is a glich in the WEI program that they are working on.

I do not really like using the 11 as a break shot, but, as you mentioned, there is not really a very good ball to use in this situation. I originally thought the the 14, if bumped correctly, could be used as a decent break ball. I did not move it too far as I was scared with it getting tangled with the 10. The angle wasn't quite correct on the 9 to move the 14 correctly (safely).

After reviewing, let me know if I fall in the 100 or the million ways...:) ;)

CueTable Help

 
klockdoc said:
jjr183 - I hope you mean to shoot some other ball besides the 1 first. Maybe 9-1?
Click to expand...

Ooops. I did mean 9 - 1. Must be that they are both yellow and I get easily confused with the Adult ADD and all.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Jeff, I think what you are doing is wonderful for the forum. I would caution you slightly against putting up these wide open layouts with multiple shots to choose from at every junction. I like to say in these situations that there are probably 100 ways to run these balls well (and about a million ways to run them badly).

For instance, there is a sequence where I start by playing the 9, and slightly bump the 14. Now, the 14 is laying perfectly for a side pocket break shot, with a great keyball in the 11. You could play the 6-10 or the 2-10 to get on the 11.

My point is not that these are hard to see; it's that there are just too many options on a table this open. There are 10 balls almost perfectly placed here, and you are right smack in the middle of them. This is an IDEAL layout, except perhaps for the lack of a perfect break ball.

Layouts like these, once you choose your break ball and the end-pattern leading up to it, don't need a perfectly thought-out plan this early. There aren't even any real problem balls on this table that you'd want to plan for too carefully (yes, the 8, 7, 6, and 2 could be considered "annoying" but there are a ton of ways to get them all off the table, so they're not really problematic).

Jeff, I hope you continue to post your layouts - you've been a great benefit to the forum. It's just my personal opinion that wide open 10-ball layouts are not ideal for analysis, but others may not share that view. I just wanted to stress my position that straight pool is not entirely about planning - at least not with a rack like this. I've seen players get into the "paralysis by analysis" mode this early in an open rack and I think it hurts more than it helps.

- Steve
Click to expand...

Thanks Steve for your comments. And I was concerned about these points as well. I agree that the more balls on the table, the more ways there are to run them, as well as to get out of line and have to rethink.

Have you ever played the game in the following picture? "Peg solitaire" it seems to be called. In the US it's on every Cracker Barrel restaurant table. You hop the pegs over one another removing those hopped, hoping to end with only 1 peg remaining in the triangle. I find it to be strangely similar to what often happens in 14.1 if not enough planning goes into a run. Stragglers can be left all alone with no easy way to get to them if not planned for them adequately. And too often the straggler is the break ball, key ball, or key to the key ball.

I really look at these as exercises that have the potential to expose bad habits, as well as uncover new approaches and concepts. I think most of us don't plan past the first few balls on the table. We see blatant problems that we want to take care of, and we see break balls and key balls we want to get on, but maybe an entire big spread of balls can actually be planned out with near zero possibility of getting bad. Maybe. I don't know.

But it's a fun challenge. What is that I see under your name? "On quest for perfect 14.1" I admire that. And I wonder if guys like you, who run in the hundreds, aren't selling yourselves short. Maybe you're only a couple of concepts short of running 400, but haven't challenged yourself enough.

For me, it seems that each new layout brings out something that I can learn. This particular one taught me that the 11, 10, and 2 are a desirable pattern to leave as last if there's an easy way to get to the center of the table. The 6 was that easy way for me. You have tons of room for error at center table and still get on either the 11 or 2 for the break.

Even if there are so many ways of playing a layout, I want to see them. I want everyone to contribute their unique perspective. And I would love it if more people would chime in about the positives and negatives of going a particular route as they see it. We all want higher runs. If you can control your cueball fairly well, and you don't miss simple shots(like me), what's stopping you? It has to be the planning.

I think all sorts of layouts should be shown to analyze. 4 ball layouts, 14 ball layouts with clusters, whatever. Let's just see where they take us.
Thanks Steve.
Jeff

It's eerie that peg solitaire has 14 pegs in a 15 hole triangle.

pegsolitaire.jpg

Jeff
 
klockdoc said:
bluepepper - I think that an experienced player may be and should be able to make the 9 ball by "spinning" it in as you show in your post. But, I think the natural movement of a novice player would be to shoot in the 9 and bump the 14. I think there is too much, (although slight) angle there to be able to miss the 14 without spinning the 9 in the pocket. JMO.
Click to expand...

Good point. I think I "felt" the shot as a soft center ball stun run through rather than spinning it in. But these are things I really should practice, because I'm not totally sure how the shot would have come out on a real table. Thanks.
Jeff
 
Hey Kloc. I like your pattern, but I would try not to save the 3 to get to the 10. This is a deceivingly difficult end-pattern.

At play here is the exact position of the 10 (and, separately, its relation to the 11). The most important problem is that you have to get fairly perfect on the 10 or you're in at least some degree of trouble. If you go too far uptable on your position for it, it's a disaster. That's obvious. If you don't go far enough, at the very least you have to play the 10 and go off the opposite end rail to get your break position. However, sometimes it's not even that simple - sometimes you have that weird, 50-yard-line angle where you don't have enough to go up and down, but you have too much to simply roll forward. You end up having to settle for break position way down table in order to maintain the angle. I speak from experience - this is going to happen way more than you'd like to believe.

I also mentioned it's not just the position of the 10 in the middle of the table; it's also the 10 in relation to the 11. If the 10 and 11 were more parallel, not as much roll-forward would be necessary to get proper break shot position. Therefore, you could accept the margin-of-error I was just discussing above. Even if you have a less-than-ideal angle on the 10 (from the 3), you don't have to do as much with the cueball after pocketing the 10 as you did in the above example.

I guess the gist of what I am saying is that the 10-11 end-pattern is acceptable, but only if you have a really good way to guarantee position on the 10. I feel I accept too much risk going from the 3 to the 10.

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Hey Kloc. I like your pattern, but I would try not to save the 3 to get to the 10. This is a deceivingly difficult end-pattern.

At play here is the exact position of the 10 (and, separately, its relation to the 11). The most important problem is that you have to get fairly perfect on the 10 or you're in at least some degree of trouble. If you go too far uptable on your position for it, it's a disaster. That's obvious. If you don't go far enough, at the very least you have to play the 10 and go off the opposite end rail to get your break position. However, sometimes it's not even that simple - sometimes you have that weird, 50-yard-line angle where you don't have enough to go up and down, but you have too much to simply roll forward. You end up having to settle for break position way down table in order to maintain the angle. I speak from experience - this is going to happen way more than you'd like to believe.

I also mentioned it's not just the position of the 10 in the middle of the table; it's also the 10 in relation to the 11. If the 10 and 11 were more parallel, not as much roll-forward would be necessary to get proper break shot position. Therefore, you could accept the margin-of-error I was just discussing above. Even if you have a less-than-ideal angle on the 10 (from the 3), you don't have to do as much with the cueball after pocketing the 10 as you did in the above example.

I guess the gist of what I am saying is that the 10-11 end-pattern is acceptable, but only if you have a really good way to guarantee position on the 10. I feel I accept too much risk going from the 3 to the 10.

- Steve
Click to expand...

Steve, Thank you for your reply. I was probably thinking the same thing as you were writing your suggestion. I know better than trying to get in a position zone accurately when coming across the position line. I also incorporate this thought process when playing other games. It is just a standard rule that just escaped my thoughts when planning this out.

You make some very good points and if nothing else, it gave you a prime opportunity to explain this (again to me) and to others so they do not make the same mistake when planning their run.

I guess another way to approach this would be to follow up further with the cue ball and come out two rails for the 10 instead of 1 rail. This would keep me in the position zone better. I may still have a problem with being on the 50 yard line, but, this far into this route chosen, it will be too late to turn back.

Thanks again for your input.
 
bluepepper said:
Thanks Steve for your comments. And I was concerned about these points as well. I agree that the more balls on the table, the more ways there are to run them, as well as to get out of line and have to rethink.

Have you ever played the game in the following picture? "Peg solitaire" it seems to be called. In the US it's on every Cracker Barrel restaurant table. You hop the pegs over one another removing those hopped, hoping to end with only 1 peg remaining in the triangle. I find it to be strangely similar to what often happens in 14.1 if not enough planning goes into a run. Stragglers can be left all alone with no easy way to get to them if not planned for them adequately. And too often the straggler is the break ball, key ball, or key to the key ball.

I really look at these as exercises that have the potential to expose bad habits, as well as uncover new approaches and concepts. I think most of us don't plan past the first few balls on the table. We see blatant problems that we want to take care of, and we see break balls and key balls we want to get on, but maybe an entire big spread of balls can actually be planned out with near zero possibility of getting bad. Maybe. I don't know.

But it's a fun challenge. What is that I see under your name? "On quest for perfect 14.1" I admire that. And I wonder if guys like you, who run in the hundreds, aren't selling yourselves short. Maybe you're only a couple of concepts short of running 400, but haven't challenged yourself enough.

For me, it seems that each new layout brings out something that I can learn. This particular one taught me that the 11, 10, and 2 are a desirable pattern to leave as last if there's an easy way to get to the center of the table. The 6 was that easy way for me. You have tons of room for error at center table and still get on either the 11 or 2 for the break.

Even if there are so many ways of playing a layout, I want to see them. I want everyone to contribute their unique perspective. And I would love it if more people would chime in about the positives and negatives of going a particular route as they see it. We all want higher runs. If you can control your cueball fairly well, and you don't miss simple shots(like me), what's stopping you? It has to be the planning.

I think all sorts of layouts should be shown to analyze. 4 ball layouts, 14 ball layouts with clusters, whatever. Let's just see where they take us.
Thanks Steve.
Jeff

It's eerie that peg solitaire has 14 pegs in a 15 hole triangle.

View attachment 62166

Jeff
Click to expand...

Hey Jeff. Point well taken, and I do agree with you. I'm not sure what would happen if I were to really slow down and analyze each rack as carefully as I could. I'm not sure if the benefits of total planning would outweigh taking myself a little out of rhythm. Anyway, it might be worth it to try - thanks for the suggestion!

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Hey Jeff. Point well taken, and I do agree with you. I'm not sure what would happen if I were to really slow down and analyze each rack as carefully as I could. I'm not sure if the benefits of total planning would outweigh taking myself a little out of rhythm. Anyway, it might be worth it to try - thanks for the suggestion!

- Steve
Click to expand...

Steve, I should have explained myself better. I'm not suggesting that you slow down when you play. What I'm suggesting is that maybe this kind of off-table work where you can take your time finding patterns will get you to see things that you never saw before. And by doing this enough you'll be able to quickly see them when you actually play. I would never suggest that you change the rhythm that works for you.

Your input here is of great help to me and the rest here. I truly appreciate it. I don't have anyone even close to your level where I play. And I also greatly appreciate that you post here with no ego. When someone reaches a high level of proficiency, there's a tendency to assume there's nothing left to learn. But there's always a chance we've missed something. Time and again we pick up solid nuggets of wisdom from the most unlikely sources.

Thanks,
Jeff
 
jjr183 said:
I can't seem to get the cuetable to work on my computer right now, but here is the pattern for me:

9, 1, 8, 3

The 3 is the only slight problem in the rack, so I would clear it out as soon as possible. Coming off of it I go right in the middle of a lot of shots; lets assume that I get on the 6 perfectly:

6, 2, 10, 11, 14

Those last 3 balls are connect the dots which is what I like to be doing towards the end so I do not lose my way to the break ball. I know that the 7 is a little low but I still like using it over the 11 due to the availability of a key ball that is basically a stop shot.
Click to expand...

I like this. The 11 to the 14 isn't a breeze, but I don't see any easy ways to get on any break shot with this layout.

Jeff
 
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