kaduku
Member
Anyone heard of this new one??? It's a AO ProPlus Shaft: http://www.annieosproshop.com/data/elements/ste_aontshafts.htm
It's pricey starting at $250.
It's pricey starting at $250.
And another new hi-tech shaft on the market...
- Thread starter kaduku
- Start date
kaduku said:
Never heard of it, but with that price tag I don't really care for it, most cue makers will advise against laminated shafts anways, at least the ones I have heard speak about shafts...According to them, laminated shafts are all hype
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it's very funny to me how there is so much discussion on all the laminated type shafts that are coming out and how they're the "answer" for much better game play. the truth, at least my truth, is the type of shaft itself does not "guarantee" better shot performance nor an advance in game play. there are so many factors that determine play ability and your success. it's not the shaft construction that's the antidote to better game play. the taper of the shaft determined by the grain type, ferrule type and length, tip, length of the shaft, joint type, ring work, butt construction, not to mention your stroke and knowledge of the game and many others affect your playability also. no.1, if you can't pocket balls consistently these products won't advance your play in any way. no. 2, i also don't think deflection is a major factor in a good players game at all anyway. deflection has become a "nasty" word over the past few years and i think it's a nessesary part of the game. good players learn how to "use" deflection all the time. besides they did'nt have these types of products in Greenleaf's, Mosconi's or Siegel's era's ( imo the players today are no "better" than in those eras ) and they are not needed today. clear, old and tight grain shaft wood seasoned over time and constructed into a shaft the right way is more than sufficient to preserve the ability for all players, beginner to great, to perform at their best. if a player want's to try some of these products that's fine but i believe they will not help them play any better than they're supposed to with a well made standard shaft and practice. it will also take more money out of their pockets that could be spent on table time and or lessons. that's my story and i'm stickin' to it.
Pool players are getting as bad as golfers....
Trying to buy a game by purchasing more exspensive equipment.....
Snake juice at it's finest...
Trying to buy a game by purchasing more exspensive equipment.....
Snake juice at it's finest...
Jedi V Man said:
While some of it might be snakeoil sales golfers have for about 3 decades been buying a lower handicap.
Its hard to argue that lighter and better materials have been found. More forgiving clubhead designs are out there and are in use.
Pros and top players are still the few and majority of the players using blades.
Its hard to deny technology advances in any sport. I dont think anyone should believe that an advance will make them a Pro however.
In pool shafts like the Predator HAVE provided almost instant progress to some. Cues deflect and there are some people that miss balls due to a variance in this. If they are able to lessen that to any degree it should help. Will it make them a Pro -- hell no.
Most pool players are not very good contrary to what most think about their game.
In golf a Pro level guy might sport a 2 handicap and below while the average guy is around 20 or higher.
In pool we dont have that good of a handicaping system to judge but
if a Pro were say 85 and up in a 100 scale then the average Joe would be in the 40s. Most just dont think they are that far below them.
So if technology can get a 40 to a 50-60 then thats a marked improvement and very beenficial to the game. Most people want to see improvement or feel that theres a chance for improvement or they will
not keep playing.
Lower deflection shafts might not be for everyone but they do help some.
Fighting technology and its advances would be moronic as almost everything has been improved over time.
More disturbing to me is how I took a brand new set of supposedly good
balls and measured/weighed them finding many different results. Then again what does a little size difference and weight difference really make in most peoples games.
Hi Tech Stuff
I've seen seveal articles in the last few years indicating that handicaps in golf, despite the new equipment and longer flying golf balls, have acutally stayed the same or even gotten higher! The new equipment helps the ball fly higher and go longer but it hasn't helped putting and the short game stuff. The player still needs skill to get the ball in the hole.
Laminated shafts are hi tech stuff that may help someones game. If they want to spend the money on that stuff - more power to them.
However, as in most sports, spending the $$$ on LESSONS may be a better investment.
I've seen seveal articles in the last few years indicating that handicaps in golf, despite the new equipment and longer flying golf balls, have acutally stayed the same or even gotten higher! The new equipment helps the ball fly higher and go longer but it hasn't helped putting and the short game stuff. The player still needs skill to get the ball in the hole.
Laminated shafts are hi tech stuff that may help someones game. If they want to spend the money on that stuff - more power to them.
However, as in most sports, spending the $$$ on LESSONS may be a better investment.
frankncali said:
people can try to justify or show data all they want. it's impossible to stop or dramatically diminish deflection period. every player has to deal with it and no product will be the "savior" for it's demise. i own and have played with these type shafts and well made normally constructed shafts and the only difference in them is the feel of the hit which in my opinion has much less feedback than normal shafts which is bad imo. if you want to spend $250 get yourself an old growth shaft like a "Timeless Timber" shaft or the like made by a very good cue maker and it will play every bit as good and probably better than most others out there. deflection is not a "nasty" word for good players. the sooner young players learn this the better players they'll become. one of the true secrets of pool or just about any individual sport is players win championships equipment wins endorsement...$$ .
hi tech shafts
Skins i find your comments a nice refreshing change from all of the talk between pool players on shafts. Where i play everyone is hooked on buying these types of shafts (whatever brand).
It is true that these shafts do allow you to generate more spin, however the downside is, you havent really developed the proper stroke that you would need using a maple shaft.
I have debated and spent alot of money on these hi-tech shafts, my personal thoughts are its not the shaft that makes the player, its the person behind the cue.
It is true that alot of players seem to use predator shafts, but what really surprises me is most of the top taiwanese players love original maple shafts on their playing cues (customs e.g. sw)
I myself have taken a full circle, i have custom cues and used the original shafts, then, got caught up with all the hype and brought a predator shafts. Now i feel i miss the solid hit and feedback that i got from my original shaft and do not use the predator. Yes it is true that i now need to adjust my aim for deflection when using english. But after the initial break in period you dont even think about it any more.
My question is "if you are buying a custom cue, do you mate it with a high tech shaft? or use what the cuemaker would use? if so why?
Your thoughts and opinions are gratefully appreciated
troyroy
Skins i find your comments a nice refreshing change from all of the talk between pool players on shafts. Where i play everyone is hooked on buying these types of shafts (whatever brand).
It is true that these shafts do allow you to generate more spin, however the downside is, you havent really developed the proper stroke that you would need using a maple shaft.
I have debated and spent alot of money on these hi-tech shafts, my personal thoughts are its not the shaft that makes the player, its the person behind the cue.
It is true that alot of players seem to use predator shafts, but what really surprises me is most of the top taiwanese players love original maple shafts on their playing cues (customs e.g. sw)
I myself have taken a full circle, i have custom cues and used the original shafts, then, got caught up with all the hype and brought a predator shafts. Now i feel i miss the solid hit and feedback that i got from my original shaft and do not use the predator. Yes it is true that i now need to adjust my aim for deflection when using english. But after the initial break in period you dont even think about it any more.
My question is "if you are buying a custom cue, do you mate it with a high tech shaft? or use what the cuemaker would use? if so why?
Your thoughts and opinions are gratefully appreciated
troyroy
skins said:
I was with you until the Timeless Timber reference. I don't believe water preserved lumber is any better than laminated shafts, maybe worse. The wood is just too affected, very poor resonance. There has been a couple of threads in the cuemakers forum on that wood. You are right about everything else ofcourse.
Kelly
The issue with a novice pool player getting more spin is the same delima as a novice galfer hitting the ball farther....
If you don't have a clue where it is going or how to controll it, hitting it farther is a disadvantage...
Same as a guy who has no clue about squirt and deflection, yet now he can spin the nuts off of the rock and Really has no clue what they are doing...
None of the high tech stuff will ever replace practice and coaching...
If you don't have a clue where it is going or how to controll it, hitting it farther is a disadvantage...
Same as a guy who has no clue about squirt and deflection, yet now he can spin the nuts off of the rock and Really has no clue what they are doing...
None of the high tech stuff will ever replace practice and coaching...
troyroy78 said:
first off pick a well known and respected cue maker. second you ask the maker to use well seasoned, tight grain, clear, old growth shaft wood and ask him for his thoughts on what combination of ferrule type and length, tip, taper and joint type he suggests for best playability and the amounts of each that can be changed and still achieve the desired play. i would spend my money on these types of shafts any day over laminated. they just have better feedback with the stroke. as far as your comment on the amount of spin that can be generated with a "high tech" shaft being more than a regular shaft that's not a fact. the amount of spin you can put on a ball has allot to do with your stroke mare than anything.
as far as the timeless timber refference i happen to love the way they play and the "resonance" is always subjective to every player. to me the "feedback" this shaft wood gives is solid but still "giveable". anyway that's my take on that kind of wood but what i was trying to say was a good shaft with good old or preserved wood constructed the right way is all that a good player needs to get as good as he or she can get.Kelly_Guy said:
Cornerman said:
I would agree with Fred. I don't believe that the more spin theory has ever been proven.
Jedi V Man said:
This is nonsense.
First, no one would ever recommend replacing practice and coaching with "high tech stuff".
Second, just because someone might not have a "clue" right now of squirt and deflection doesn't mean they are incapable of learning or that they are not trying to learn.
Third, in golf, it's always an advantage to be able to hit the ball further than not.
This is interesting. I was wondering when someone was going to bring these to market.
Atlast Billiards has been selling these blanks for quite a while now. I think the blanks themselves are $80 (or thereabouts). If you really wanted one of these and cared to save money, have your local cue maker buy the blank and then make a shaft from it for $100.
Atlast Billiards has been selling these blanks for quite a while now. I think the blanks themselves are $80 (or thereabouts). If you really wanted one of these and cared to save money, have your local cue maker buy the blank and then make a shaft from it for $100.
First, Predator shafts have helped people improve quickly. I've seen it. I've heard from countless people who have said it made the game easier for them. This, in turn, gave them more incentive to keep playing and to want to get better. The elitist attitude towards Predator shafts is really silly. I would be included in the group that saw improvement very quickly.
Having said that, I might agree with those that say the feel is not quite what it is with a regular hard rock maple shaft. For some, the trade-off between feel and reduced deflection is more than a fair one, while for others, deflection is not important and they need the feel. That's fine; it doesn't make anyone right or wrong. Predator shafts are the right equipment for some people. Someone said earlier in this thread that fighting technology is really silly, and that is true, not only in pool, but in lots of things.
Guess what though? I just bought another cue, a custom with a regular old shaft. So now, I'm going the other way...from Predator to regular high squirt shaft. And even that is easier to figure out now. Once I grasped spinning with the Predator, adjusting for a high squirt shaft has been made easier.
And let me say also that I agree with everyone above that says a Predator shaft does not generate more spin. Actually, while not having any real data to back this up, I might say that if anything, a Predator shaft probably generates less spin. This was agreed with by players I know who are much better than myself, in their opinions. I say it because in my short time with my new cue, when I have shot extreme spin shots, I saw much more dramatic spin and angles off cushions than I ever saw with my Predator.
Having said that, I might agree with those that say the feel is not quite what it is with a regular hard rock maple shaft. For some, the trade-off between feel and reduced deflection is more than a fair one, while for others, deflection is not important and they need the feel. That's fine; it doesn't make anyone right or wrong. Predator shafts are the right equipment for some people. Someone said earlier in this thread that fighting technology is really silly, and that is true, not only in pool, but in lots of things.
Guess what though? I just bought another cue, a custom with a regular old shaft. So now, I'm going the other way...from Predator to regular high squirt shaft. And even that is easier to figure out now. Once I grasped spinning with the Predator, adjusting for a high squirt shaft has been made easier.
And let me say also that I agree with everyone above that says a Predator shaft does not generate more spin. Actually, while not having any real data to back this up, I might say that if anything, a Predator shaft probably generates less spin. This was agreed with by players I know who are much better than myself, in their opinions. I say it because in my short time with my new cue, when I have shot extreme spin shots, I saw much more dramatic spin and angles off cushions than I ever saw with my Predator.
Kelly_Guy said:
i grew up in a small town that revolved around logging 80 years ago. they used the lake to transport logs to the lumbermill, and some became waterlogged and sunk. about 5 years ago the town built a barge with a crane on it, and started fishing the logs out. i asked what was so great about that wood that they would fish for it. i was told that it was used for instruments, and that they would pay a premium to get wood of that caliber. it must have pretty good resonance if people are making instruments out of it, and gladly paying the insanely high price.