Another APA 8 ball situation

K

kicker

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At nationals, my team is 1-1 and trying to stay in the tournament.
Matches are tied 2-2 and I'm playing a 7 who, (I find out later), hasn't lost a match in 4 years.

CueTable Help



(Try the link for a more accurate layout, since the above table looks different than what I diagrammed)
http://CueTable.com/B/?@1BbPx3FWIe4...HCOf4IYeK3JFyp4KaLe4LbJx1MUev1NFGW1OIKh3PVtJ@

Page 1:
I'm on the hill and just about to run out when I overshoot a little and get closer than I wanted to on the 2. I make the 2, but get hooked behind the 15 by about a 16th of a ball. It's too close to jump full cue. I try a half masse, but miss, and he runs out.

He breaks and runs the next rack and now it's hill-hill.

Page 2:
He breaks, makes a solid, and misses his first shot. He shot hard and a lot of balls moved around, so he wasn't playing safe. I was left with the page 2 layout. Although the pockets looks like buckets, the three ball combo is not going anywhere but into the rails.

Should I have done anything differently in the page 1 rack?
What could I have done for the page 2 rack? (I'll post what I did later).
 
Last edited:
kicker said:
At nationals, my team is 1-1 and trying to stay in the tournament.
Matches are tied 2-2 and I'm playing a 7 who, (I find out later), hasn't lost a match in 4 years.

CueTable Help



(Try the link for a more accurate layout, since the above table looks different than what I diagrammed)
http://CueTable.com/B/?@1BbPx3FWIe4...HCOf4IYeK3JFyp4KaLe4LbJx1MUev1NFGW1OIKh3PVtJ@

Page 1:
I'm on the hill and just about to run out when I overshoot a little and get closer than I wanted to on the 2. I make the 2, but get hooked behind the 15 by about a 16th of a ball. It's too close to jump full cue. I try a half masse, but miss, and he runs out.

He breaks and runs the next rack and now it's hill-hill.

Page 2:
He breaks, makes a solid, and misses his first shot. He shot hard and a lot of balls moved around, so he wasn't playing safe. I was left with the page 2 layout. Although the pockets looks like buckets, the three ball combo is not going anywhere but into the rails.

Should I have done anything differently in the page 1 rack?
What could I have done for the page 2 rack? (I'll post what I did later).
Click to expand...


You're not in good shape here. No matter which way you go, you're going to have a lot of cueball movement. Based on your diagram, I would probably opt for the 6 ball simply because I KNOW I can get on the 2 ball and I'll take my chances getting on the 8 (which isn't THAT tied up so long as you can find a route to the footside of the table.
 
Think you read his diagram wrong jude - position A was after shooting the 2 ball, there was no shot to the 6 ball from his indicated cue ball position.

He was almost on top of the 2, had to shoot it and missed his position on the 6 by a bit.

He did not diagram from a shot earlier, but obviously it was the shot before position on the 2 that was the problem (or position on that shot).
 
juggler314 said:
Think you read his diagram wrong jude - position A was after shooting the 2 ball, there was no shot to the 6 ball from his indicated cue ball position.

He was almost on top of the 2, had to shoot it and missed his position on the 6 by a bit.

He did not diagram from a shot earlier, but obviously it was the shot before position on the 2 that was the problem (or position on that shot).
Click to expand...


AHHHHHHHHHH, yeah he's screwed. Not much you can do there except cut the face off the 2 and hope you get shape on the 6. Nobody has to win from that position.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
You're not in good shape here. No matter which way you go, you're going to have a lot of cueball movement. Based on your diagram, I would probably opt for the 6 ball simply because I KNOW I can get on the 2 ball and I'll take my chances getting on the 8 (which isn't THAT tied up so long as you can find a route to the footside of the table.
Click to expand...

If you're talking about page 1, the cueball is the one near the 2. I shot the 2 and ended up barely hooked behind the 15 at cueball A.
(or am I missing something?)

Edit: never mind
 
Last edited:
kicker said:
At nationals, my team is 1-1 and trying to stay in the tournament.
Matches are tied 2-2 and I'm playing a 7 who, (I find out later), hasn't lost a match in 4 years.



(Try the link for a more accurate layout, since the above table looks different than what I diagrammed)
http://CueTable.com/B/?@1BbPx3FWIe4...HCOf4IYeK3JFyp4KaLe4LbJx1MUev1NFGW1OIKh3PVtJ@


Page 1:
I'm on the hill and just about to run out when I overshoot a little and get closer than I wanted to on the 2. I make the 2, but get hooked behind the 15 by about a 16th of a ball. It's too close to jump full cue. I try a half masse, but miss, and he runs out.

He breaks and runs the next rack and now it's hill-hill.

Page 2:
He breaks, makes a solid, and misses his first shot. He shot hard and a lot of balls moved around, so he wasn't playing safe. I was left with the page 2 layout. Although the pockets looks like buckets, the three ball combo is not going anywhere but into the rails.

Should I have done anything differently in the page 1 rack?
What could I have done for the page 2 rack? (I'll post what I did later).
Click to expand...

For page 2 it doesn't look like there are any easy/obvious outs. You could tie the 6 ball up, but given the position of his balls on the table and that he is a skilled shooter, it's unlikely that would have won you the game.

Something like this comes to mind:

I added a page 3 to your diagram:

CueTable Help



But that would be extremely difficult. I watched thorsten hohmann attempt a safe like that in straight pool against tony robles, but only over about a 2 foot long distance total - and he missed it. I think your chances for executing this without leaving a shot are minimal.
 
kicker said:
If you're talking about page 1, the cueball is the one near the 2. I shot the 2 and ended up barely hooked behind the 15 at cueball A.
(or am I missing something?)

Edit: never mind
Click to expand...


Yes, I was referring to shot #1. In shot #2, you're also screwed. I'm assuming you're playing an Open level player so unless you lock him up and open your balls, you're going to lose. Because of the favorable layout of solids, you have to assume you're getting one shot. I would strongly consider the hit-it-hard-and-pray-to-God approach and look to put all my stripes in play.

No matter what, it's imperative you rearrange this table IMMEDIATELY and if luck play a part, so be it. You may end up knocking his balls into clusters, too. No matter what, you have to take a chance here.
 
in page two if he missed his first shot it is still open i assume? soilds don't look to bad at all starting with the six i think you could get out a number of ways. unless apa is different and i am missing something?
 
T0dd-Pocket said:
in page two if he missed his first shot it is still open i assume? soilds don't look to bad at all starting with the six i think you could get out a number of ways. unless apa is different and i am missing something?
Click to expand...


No, in APA, you are what you make on the break. The shooter is stripes.
 
The only other shot I see for Page 1 is kicking off the short rail. You may have to use a little left english to get back at the 6. I don't like your chances in that rack at all.

In Page 2, I looked for an option to tie up one of his balls near your cluster. The 10 into the 4 might be an option, but once again nothing I'd like to play. What did you do? The suspense is killing me. ;)
 
42NateBaller said:
In Page 2, I looked for an option to tie up one of his balls near your cluster. The 10 into the 4 might be an option, but once again nothing I'd like to play. What did you do? The suspense is killing me. ;)
Click to expand...

The problem with doing this is that you're not REALLY tying it up - you're just making it not as easy as before. He'll still have ducks all over the place to pocket AND a few that should help break out the problem you tried to create for him. The assumption here is your opponent is a strong 7. Unless the problem you create is complex, you can assume it's your last turn.
 
Jude,

I agree with your earlier post on "hit and pray", so my page 2 assessment was an variation on a theme. Get that 4 near the cluster and pray he doesn't break it out cleanly. Even a strong 7 can miss a breakout with multiple balls are in play (once in a while).
 
42NateBaller said:
Jude,

I agree with your earlier post on "hit and pray", so my page 2 assessment was an variation on a theme. Get that 4 near the cluster and pray he doesn't break it out cleanly. Even a strong 7 can miss a breakout with multiple balls are in play (once in a while).
Click to expand...


Yes but the fundamental difference here is, your safety does not address the clustered stripes so you need at least another turn at the table. Also, you've only tied up one of his shots. He could run out his balls, hang the 8ball ANYWHERE and you could still end up losing this game. I can't see how you're going to win here without relocating every stripe immediately.
 

CueTable Help




Sorry as its a bit messy but those are the shots that would be running through my head on page 2. obviously Cueball A+B from the same position as the cueball. Not sure if my original shot thought can be played off two cushions behind the stripe(will have to have a go down the club).Cueball B shot being the least likely id attempt shooting the 14.
 
My point of view depends on his opponent running everything and trying to break out the 7 but possibly tying it up with one of those 3 stripes again. Thus moving those stripes.

Otherwise, as long as his opponent shoots the 6, he may be able to use the foot rail to kick into a safe using those 3 balls as blockers.

Again, I like your solution just as much.
 
42NateBaller said:
My point of view depends on his opponent running everything and trying to break out the 7 but possibly tying it up with one of those 3 stripes again. Thus moving those stripes.

Otherwise, as long as his opponent shoots the 6, he may be able to use the foot rail to kick into a safe using those 3 balls as blockers.

Again, I like your solution just as much.
Click to expand...


I think that diagram (#2) is a perfect illustration of how one-sided 8-ball can be sometimes. Stripes versus solids really is the difference between winning and losing. The question is, assuming your opponent is a good 7, what can you do to possibly turn the table around? I don't agree with a multi-inning strategy since he's going to see right through it and act accordingly. Either you're going to leave him an out OR he's going to play defense right back and you and further assure victory. This is why I would strongly consider asking Lady Luck for help here. All you need is one good roll and you can find yourself running out. Put everything in play, break open the cluster and hope something good happens.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I think that diagram (#2) is a perfect illustration of how one-sided 8-ball can be sometimes. Stripes versus solids really is the difference between winning and losing. The question is, assuming your opponent is a good 7, what can you do to possibly turn the table around? I don't agree with a multi-inning strategy since he's going to see right through it and act accordingly. Either you're going to leave him an out OR he's going to play defense right back and you and further assure victory. This is why I would strongly consider asking Lady Luck for help here. All you need is one good roll and you can find yourself running out. Put everything in play, break open the cluster and hope something good happens.
Click to expand...

Fair enough and well said!
 
I considered tying up the 6 with the three ball cluster while nudging them into something hopefully makeable. I didn't like that, though.

CueTable Help



http://CueTable.com/B/?@1AWXq1BURj1...KaLe4LbJx1MUev1NFGW1OIKh3PVlK3kVlK3kCKi4kWqp@

I also considered the diagram on page 2. I knew I had to rearrange those three balls to have a chance. I could have nudged them into a combo position while leaving him straight on the six and jacked up over the 11. I didn't shoot this because I had no room for error on the kick - the scratch loomed large of the wrong side of the 12 and I didn't have enough confidence to judge the slide at this angle, (new cloth and it was my first match in the tournament and first time playing on the diamond smart tables).

So, I shot the page 1 diagram. Hoping to rearrange the three balls (and maybe, just maybe, the pocket would play big and let the 12 go), and trying to get behind the 13 at cueball B. I ended up a little short at A, instead. He jacks up and makes the straight-ish 5 ball and runs out.

This was one of those situations where I feel like I made the right decisions and executed at a high level, but still ended up losing.

On the first shot, (from the 2 to the 6), I was shooting across the narrowest part of the window to not get hooked behind the 15 and just came up a hair short.

In the other rack, I could only curse luck for putting me in that situation to begin with. I think I made the best of it under the circumstances.
 
Can anyone post a jpeg image of the situation?

Who was it that you were playing? 4 years is a long time for anyone not to lose a match. Even in the APA.
 
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