another apa thread

[vapoolplayer]

Ask other people in this area, not many people will tell you different. I'm not saying he's ridiculous about it but, a 7 should be running racks consistently, if not they should not be 7's. When there are7's out there who run sets, somebody who only runs 2 or 3 a session is a 6. He raise our 2 middle of states. She won a match was his reason. She won 2-1, one of those games her opponent scratched the 8. The innings were 11,12,13.

Not all 7's are created equal. You're going to have a larger margin of skill at the top level than you are in the other levels, just based on the fact there is no higher a person can go. You can't say "when there are 7s that run sets" everyone who doesn't shouldn't be a 7.

4s, 5s, and 6s will seem much more balanced because if they play worse or better they can go down or up. A 7 however (if you're talking 8 ball) has nowhere to go if they play better than other 7s.

The same thing happens in 9 ball. You have 9s that can spot other 9s two balls, again because the better playing 9 has nowhere to go.

Anytime you have something based on a bell curve you are going to have people that shoot better or worse than average, yet still stay in that bracket. One cannot simply say "because the best of the best do it, everyone else should."

Same thing happens in all sports/games. When you look at the NFL, a handful of players stand out among the rest. Based on your idea, the rest of the NFL shouldn't be allowed to be professional football players because the best of them are so much better.

 

[justadub]

To further that point, we currently have five SL7's in our 8-ball division. (Out of 94 players this session). In 9-ball, one of them is a 9, another is an 8. They can't go any higher in skill level in the 8-ball division.

I'm certain this is only magnified in more populous parts of the country.

Add to that part of the discussion, these 7's that you speak of running multiple racks...are those being run on 9 footers, or 7 footers? Cuz as you know, most APA here in Maine is played on 9's, where's much of the rest if the country plays on 7's, usually with big pockets (Valleys).

Not to be argumentative, just furthering the discussion.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Dub, why would it bother me? I never have to play you. I'm curious, you said you all (some of you all) wonder openly about it, have you ever seen the system? I mean on paper or in text?
I believe that in a previous text lorider said something about being a lower S/L and it being a good thing for him to go into the singles regionals (or something) like that. From having read your's and loriders posts over the last several months I get that you guys wouldn't cheat and you don't sand bag. But hoping you go into a regionals at a lower S/L than you know you should be doesn't quite seem on the up and up to me. The really screwy thing to me is the 35 matches in 8 ball that lo played in one session and that he is a 6 in 8 ball and a 4 in 9 ball, man, I'd hate that race, but it is what it is. I imagine the 35 or so matches were over several different teams.
Some years ago, in tournament play, the APA had inserted a S/L called Super 7, basically you went from 7 to what you might think an 8 would be in some races, but I haven't seen that in some time

 

[justadub]

I can't speak for Lorider, but my guess is his opinion is similar to.mine. if I play my best, and am not sandbagging, and the system brings my skill level down, then I'm gonna chuckle about it and hope for the best.

It's easy to have a clear conscience when you don't cheat. The system isn't perfect, and as such, when it benefits us, I run with it. When it doesn't benefit me, I'll grump and gripe a bit, and then carry on. Fortunately, most of the time the system is close enough so neither of those scenarios happen very often. Usually there is laughter involved with either scenario, cuz what else are ya gonna do, right?

And I haven't had to worry about it in two years now, since I've been stalled at the same Skill Level. I get concerned about members of my team moving up, solely from a strategic standpoint, though I know it will happen. There isn't anything we can do about it, nor would we, but it doesn't stop my concern. We just try to do our best. And have a good time while doing it.

 

[4onthebreak]

Speaking from my own experience in the Portland area:

Taking a casual glance may make one scratch their head about their skill level but I think if you kept anal records about your last 20 matches (who won, by how much, innings, d shots etc) it would make more sense.

Me for example:
My all time stats are right around 50% for both 8 and 9, and the more I think about it that's about how I shoot (overall over the years). I do have stretches where I stink it up and loose to 2's and 3's but I also can have a good session where I'm beating 5's and 6's. This past session I had a 84% win ratio (it sure as hell didn't feel like it ) but I know there have been times when I've gone less then 30%.

There are dozens of factors.

If we all played to our potential in ideal circumstances we'd all be 7/9's.

The terrible fact of the matter is the majority of us have a lot going on in life and/or in our head. We also get somewhat distracted by the tables we play on and the environments we play in.

Did someone cut me off on the way to the bar. I went up. I went down. I had a crappy day at work. I fought with my spouse. I need a new tip. Do I need a new tip? What kind of music is being played. What someone said to me. Someone walked in front of me. I need new shoes. That chick is hot.

And on and on and on.

Sometimes it all gets blocked out and other times it just takes that one thing.

If your pool kung fu is sound then you should work on your mental game. That's what I'm trying to consciously focus on.

If I miss a typical rail cut shot it isn't because of my stick, or the table, or whomever I'm playing. It's in my head. That's a shot I can make over 90% of the time so if I miss it it's something I'm doing to myself.

 

[Ctwitty]

regional handicap

last session was not one of my better sessions so far , especially playing 8 ball. i usually stay around 50 % win loss every session in both 8 and 9 ball.

i was quite supprised when i looked at the scoresheet my 1st night in the new session and found i had been lowered from a 5 to a 4 in 9 ball, still a 6 in 8 ball.

i looked up last sessions stats this morning and it just dont make any sense.

as i stated earlier my 8 ball game went downhill last session. won 11 and lost 20 for a 35 % win record.

in 9 ball i won 11 and lost 12 for a 48% win record. not as good as i usually do but not as bad as my 8 ball game last session.

it just puzzles the heck out of me that i would go down in 9 ball with a 48% win record and stay the same in 8 ball with a 38 % win record.

i am quite embarassed to be lowered but on the bright side it make it a lil easier when i go to singles regionals in 2 months, unless they raise me again right before i go like they have done the last 2 years in a row.

even though last session was a down session for me i still have a lifetime 52% win in 8 ball and 55% in 9 ball.

it seems like i play great one session and suck the next. its been that way every session since i joned apa.

Hi Lorider, always enjoy your posts. Even though you have gone down you will still play at the regionals in march at the level you qualified.

 

[lorider]

Dub, why would it bother me? I never have to play you. I'm curious, you said you all (some of you all) wonder openly about it, have you ever seen the system? I mean on paper or in text?
I believe that in a previous text lorider said something about being a lower S/L and it being a good thing for him to go into the singles regionals (or something) like that. From having read your's and loriders posts over the last several months I get that you guys wouldn't cheat and you don't sand bag. But hoping you go into a regionals at a lower S/L than you know you should be doesn't quite seem on the up and up to me. The really screwy thing to me is the 35 matches in 8 ball that lo played in one session and that he is a 6 in 8 ball and a 4 in 9 ball, man, I'd hate that race, but it is what it is. I imagine the 35 or so matches were over several different teams.
Some years ago, in tournament play, the APA had inserted a S/L called Super 7, basically you went from 7 to what you might think an 8 would be in some races, but I haven't seen that in some time

i will have to some of your viewpoint i agree with. but i would like to clarify a few things. no where did i say i hoped to go down before the regionals. if you wiil re read my post i said i was somewhat embarrased to be lowered. it is an ego thing with me, i always strive to play my best.

strange at it may seem to you i would rather be known as an average 5 than a strong 4 who some people would think i was undercapped.

i did say , on the bright side it would probably be easier on me at regionals as a 4 than a 5 , but again , nowhere did i say i was hoping to be lowered.

you are correct in that i accumaleted 35 matches in one session with several teams, 3 to be exact.

as far as being curios about the handicaping and wondering out loud about it, again you are correct. i started this thread simply because i thought it odd that i would be lowered in 9 ball and stay the same in 8 ball despite the fact that i had a higher win percentage in 9 ball.

whether you believe it or not i would love to be a 7 in both 8 and 9 ball simply for bragging rights to say i was that darn good of a player.

i could care less about any team i play on meeting the handicap limit. i want to be a 7 just for me, i dont want to be a 4,5 or whatever because other people need me to be.

i hope that clarifys where i stand on the subject of handicaps.

 

[lorider]

Hi Lorider, always enjoy your posts. Even though you have gone down you will still play at the regionals in march at the level you qualified.

i thought that might be a possibility but it seems like a gray area somewhat.

here is why i say that.

2 years ago i qualified for regionals as a 3. exactly 4 weeks before regionals i was raised to a 4. when i went to regionals that had me play as a 4 in the level 4 bracket even though i qualified as a 3 . i went 2 and out :frown:

last year i qualified as a 4 and again was raised to a 5 exactly 4 weeks before regionals. this time they had me playing in the 4 bracket as a 5, giving my opponents a 4-3 race. i went undefeated all the way to the finals where i lost hill- hill because i dogged my last ball and they ran out.:embarrassed2:

i guess when i go this time i will find out where they put me.

 

[Ctwitty]

regionals

i thought that might be a possibility but it seems like a gray area somewhat.

here is why i say that.

2 years ago i qualified for regionals as a 3. exactly 4 weeks before regionals i was raised to a 4. when i went to regionals that had me play as a 4 in the level 4 bracket even though i qualified as a 3 . i went 2 and out :frown:

last year i qualified as a 4 and again was raised to a 5 exactly 4 weeks before regionals. this time they had me playing in the 4 bracket as a 5, giving my opponents a 4-3 race. i went undefeated all the way to the finals where i lost hill- hill because i dogged my last ball and they ran out.:embarrassed2:

i guess when i go this time i will find out where they put me.

In both of the above scenarios you went up before the tournament.
this time you have gone down since you qualified at the higher level.
You will most assuredly play at the skill level at which you qualified.

Good Luck this year.

 

[lorider]

In both of the above scenarios you went up before the tournament.
this time you have gone down since you qualified at the higher level.
You will most assuredly play at the skill level at which you qualified.

Good Luck this year.

thanks for wishing me luck. if i play as well there as i did in the qualifier i won i think i wont embarass my self in nashville .

 

[Celophanewrap]

i will have to some of your viewpoint i agree with. but i would like to clarify a few things. no where did i say i hoped to go down before the regionals. if you wiil re read my post i said i was somewhat embarrased to be lowered. it is an ego thing with me, i always strive to play my best.

strange at it may seem to you i would rather be known as an average 5 than a strong 4 who some people would think i was undercapped.

i did say , on the bright side it would probably be easier on me at regionals as a 4 than a 5 , but again , nowhere did i say i was hoping to be lowered.

you are correct in that i accumaleted 35 matches in one session with several teams, 3 to be exact.

as far as being curios about the handicaping and wondering out loud about it, again you are correct. i started this thread simply because i thought it odd that i would be lowered in 9 ball and stay the same in 8 ball despite the fact that i had a higher win percentage in 9 ball.

whether you believe it or not i would love to be a 7 in both 8 and 9 ball simply for bragging rights to say i was that darn good of a player.

i could care less about any team i play on meeting the handicap limit. i want to be a 7 just for me, i dont want to be a 4,5 or whatever because other people need me to be.

i hope that clarifys where i stand on the subject of handicaps.

I stand corrected. In your opening post you commented that it would be easier on you if you were to go to regionals as the lower handicap, so not that you were hoping to be lowered, I interpreted that to mean you were hopeful to maintain your lower S/L to play against lower ranked players. My apologies for my misinterpretation. Sounds to me like lower or higher, you'll do just fine

 

[lorider]

I stand corrected. In your opening post you commented that it would be easier on you if you were to go to regionals as the lower handicap, so not that you were hoping to be lowered, I interpreted that to mean you were hopeful to maintain your lower S/L to play against lower ranked players. My apologies for my misinterpretation. Sounds to me like lower or higher, you'll do just fine

no problem celophane. :thumbup: i have taken peoples posts out of context on here more than once myself.

 

[trob]

Winning percentage is a small part of it. I won as an 8 in 9 ball and won match after match and didn't move up. Then I Lost 3 matches in a row but were all low inning matches..and got moved up to a 9. It's hard to say why people get moved up. In apa I feel if the match comes down to the last rack both players having a chance to win then the handicaps were correct but apa doesn't see it that way I guess...nor does most the players in our league. They moan about having to play me all the time. lol I couldn't care less who I play but then again I think apa is a shit hole sand baggers league that I would quit tomorrow if my wife didn't like it so much lol

 

[tablerunna]

"

Not all 7's are created equal. You're going to have a larger margin of skill at the top level than you are in the other levels, just based on the fact there is no higher a person can go. You can't say "when there are 7s that run sets" everyone who doesn't shouldn't be a 7. "

Yes i agree that all 7's are not created equal. I believe that the top of any handicapped sport should be the best of the best say top 10%. They should all have a chance against each other but, when you have near pro level(and pro level shooters) even against others who run maybe one rack out of 50, that is a large range in my opinion.

"4s, 5s, and 6s will seem much more balanced because if they play worse or better they can go down or up. A 7 however (if you're talking 8 ball) has nowhere to go if they play better than other 7s. "

4, 5, and 6s are really more unbalenced, they have usually not played as long or are at that handicap because they play inconsistently. Once you are a 7 you cant' go back down. Right no place to go so some should not be 7s to begin with.


"The same thing happens in 9 ball. You have 9s that can spot other 9s two balls, again because the better playing 9 has nowhere to go."

Anytime you have something based on a bell curve you are going to have people that shoot better or worse than average, yet still stay in that bracket. One cannot simply say "because the best of the best do it, everyone else should."

"Same thing happens in all sports/games. When you look at the NFL, a handful of players stand out among the rest. Based on your idea, the rest of the NFL shouldn't be allowed to be professional football players because the best of them are so much better.

"

These sports are not handicapped. They are also team sports so you have good and bad on both team to average things out. There will always be somebody better then someone else. That is why leagues are handicapped to give everybody a fair chance. What I am saying is the spread between many 7s is so great that lower 7s have no chance of winning, unless they get real lucky(but it shouldn't be about that).

 

[lorider]

I stand corrected. In your opening post you commented that it would be easier on you if you were to go to regionals as the lower handicap, so not that you were hoping to be lowered, I interpreted that to mean you were hopeful to maintain your lower S/L to play against lower ranked players. My apologies for my misinterpretation. Sounds to me like lower or higher, you'll do just fine

just saw on the website my lo raised me back to a 5 in 9 ball. i thought he would after i talked to him tuesday night. oh yea did you see my post where i said he told me if i kept playing like i was tue night he could see me being raised to a 7 in 8 ball ? yay ! :smile:

 

[justadub]

just saw on the website my lo raised me back to a 5 in 9 ball. i thought he would after i talked to him tuesday night. oh yea did you see my post where i said he told me if i kept playing like i was tue night he could see me being raised to a 7 in 8 ball ? yay ! :smile:

Good stuff, dude!

Tonight I won an even race against another SL5 (who should certainly be a 6) when all I wanted to do was to split the match 8-12 (we were ahead in the matches for the evening, so if I kept it to 8-12 it was a victory) and I beat him 15-5! I was stoked, and we won the division championship for the 3rd time in 3 years.

Just goes to show you, you never know, till it's played out.

 

[hang-the-9]

Winning percentage is a small part of it. I won as an 8 in 9 ball and won match after match and didn't move up. Then I Lost 3 matches in a row but were all low inning matches..and got moved up to a 9.

This actually makes sense, you can win and still be bad. You are only good if you play good, not only if you win. I have beaten players better than me, that does not mean I am good, only that they played worse than me that time. If the rank is more weighed towards innings, safety play and such, that is where the player shows the skill. If they only counted wins or used wins as a major thing, you'd be bouncing up and down in rank a lot more, since the handicap system is there to allow a lower skill player to (in theory) be about 50% win ratio to a better player. So you'll hit that level, then you go up a bit because you win, then you start to loose once you reach past your skill, then you drop, you go to even, then go up, start to lose to the better players you are even with, you go down again. If they just rank you on YOUR ability, you stay the same rank for longer, but then just the win-loss ratio has less of a bearing on the handicap you get.

 

[hang-the-9]

""

These sports are not handicapped. They are also team sports so you have good and bad on both team to average things out. There will always be somebody better then someone else. That is why leagues are handicapped to give everybody a fair chance. What I am saying is the spread between many 7s is so great that lower 7s have no chance of winning, unless they get real lucky(but it shouldn't be about that).

They need finer tuned rankings then. I like the USAPL rankings, they go to 125, which allows for much finer skill rank. You can have two people that would be 7s in the APA that are 90 and 110 in the USAPL, which would give them a fairer handicap. A funny thing about the USAPL rankings, they start you off at a 50 for 3 weeks, which makes it very easy for a B and up player to win. After 3 weeks and 3 wins I shot up to a 125 which is basically A+ level. Which is well over my actual skill, but I was so far over being a 50 that I won easily, and with low innings, which messed up the handicapping system and overshot my rank. Eventually the rank settled down for me in the high 90s, low 100s, which is where I should have been, but for a few months I had a hell of a time spotting people 2 games I should be equal to.