Any EXPERTS on Ivory here

[Bruce S. de Lis]

Curious on what is the DEAL on Ivory, Exportation of Cues with, Real Elephant Ivory Shaft Ferrules, Butt Caps, Joints, Inlays, etc. Or Importation of Cue with Cues with, Real Elephant Ivory Shaft Ferrules, Butt Caps, Joints, Inlays, etc.

What NECESSARY Paperwork do you have to have to keep your Cue from getting confiscated by the Inspectors of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, or U.S. Customs Service.

 

[Barbara]

Curious on what is the DEAL on Ivory, Exportation of Cues with, Real Elephant Ivory Shaft Ferrules, Butt Caps, Joints, Inlays, etc. Or Importation of Cue with Cues with, Real Elephant Ivory Shaft Ferrules, Butt Caps, Joints, Inlays, etc.

What NECESSARY Paperwork do you have to have to keep your Cue from getting confiscated by the Inspectors of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, or U.S. Customs Service.

Well all I know is, if you're shipping to Japan, just report "pool cue" on the shipping label and that's all folks. Details are best left out. Japan's really a stickler on imports and will take all necessary measures to confiscate anything suspicious. Even if it is fake looking ivory.

Barbara

 

[VonRhett]

Well all I know is, if you're shipping to Japan, just report "pool cue" on the shipping label and that's all folks. Details are best left out. Japan's really a stickler on imports and will take all necessary measures to confiscate anything suspicious. Even if it is fake looking ivory.
Barbara

Excuse me, Barbara, but that's just terrible advice. We import/export as part of our core business, and we are Bonded Importers by the Customs Dept/Dept of the Treasury.

ALL Commercial Trade of any & all Ivory is strictly banned by the CITES Convention. Any amount of ivory coming in OR leaving the country "must" be approved by Customs. You can request a CITES form at Customs or your friendly local Customs Broker can do it for a fee.

Here's a list of all participating countries: http://www.fws.gov/international/cites/citeslop.html

Some countires, specifically the PI, don't even attempt to enforce CITES. But if you're buying one of those piece of crap PI cues loaded with Ivory, you really should get the necessary approval from Customs before having the cue shipped. The process takes about 30-days.

Exporting falls under the same rules, Barbara. If you're exporting a cue to JP, or any country on the list, you really need to register (license) that ivory with Customs prior to shipping. The Law is "No Commercial Trade", which applies equally to both import & export activities.

I'm sure we can all cite the hundreds of times that a cue has been shipped out or imported in without doing the paperwork, but the poster asked for advice on trading items with Ivory. And the proper advice to give is that ALL IVORY, whether in-bound or out, must be registered/approved by Customs, in accordance with US and International Laws, as governed by the CITES Convention/Treaty.

Should you decide to risk it (which most people for cues do), you will defientely lose the stick and possibly be fined (though rare for that amount), if Customs decides to do a spot check on your package.

But now that Customs falls under DHS, more packages are being physically examined - an order of magnitude greater. But it doesn't cost a cent to fill out the CITES form.

BTW, even pre-ban Ivory should be registered if importing or exporting, or even re-importing.

And for the people who think that Ivory from a hippopatumus is OK, but from an elephant (all Asian & All African species) is not OK - thinik again. Ivory has been under a worldwide TRADE BAN since 1989. The only legal trade of ivory is currently that from a mammoth, provided the animal died naturally. ( Of course, not many Mammoths running around Kansas, eh, Dorothy?) Also, about 3-years ago the collective, wonderous wisdom of the UN decided that limited ivory from certain African countries was now OK, provided all pprwrk is in order. This was the UN's answer to starving children, but that's another thread.

-Rhett

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

Excuse me, Barbara, but that's just terrible advice. We import/export as part of our core business, and we are Bonded Importers by the Customs Dept/Dept of the Treasury.

ALL Commercial Trade of any & all Ivory is strictly banned by the CITES Convention. Any amount of ivory coming in OR leaving the country "must" be approved by Customs. You can request a CITES form at Customs or your friendly local Customs Broker can do it for a fee.

Here's a list of all participating countries: http://www.fws.gov/international/cites/citeslop.html

Some countires, specifically the PI, don't even attempt to enforce CITES. But if you're buying one of those piece of crap PI cues loaded with Ivory, you really should get the necessary approval from Customs before having the cue shipped. The process takes about 30-days.

Exporting falls under the same rules, Barbara. If you're exporting a cue to JP, or any country on the list, you really need to register (license) that ivory with Customs prior to shipping. The Law is "No Commercial Trade", which applies equally to both import & export activities.

I'm sure we can all cite the hundreds of times that a cue has been shipped out or imported in without doing the paperwork, but the poster asked for advice on trading items with Ivory. And the proper advice to give is that ALL IVORY, whether in-bound or out, must be registered/approved by Customs, in accordance with US and International Laws, as governed by the CITES Convention/Treaty.

Should you decide to risk it (which most people for cues do), you will defientely lose the stick and possibly be fined (though rare for that amount), if Customs decides to do a spot check on your package.

But now that Customs falls under DHS, more packages are being physically examined - an order of magnitude greater. But it doesn't cost a cent to fill out the CITES form.

BTW, even pre-ban Ivory should be registered if importing or exporting, or even re-importing.

And for the people who think that Ivory from a hippopatumus is OK, but from an elephant (all Asian & All African species) is not OK - thinik again. Ivory has been under a worldwide TRADE BAN since 1989. The only legal trade of ivory is currently that from a mammoth, provided the animal died naturally. ( Of course, not many Mammoths running around Kansas, eh, Dorothy?) Also, about 3-years ago the collective, wonderous wisdom of the UN decided that limited ivory from certain African countries was now OK, provided all pprwrk is in order. This was the UN's answer to starving children, but that's another thread.

-Rhett

Great Information.....

 

[bruin70]

Excuse me, Barbara, but that's just terrible advice. We import/export as part of our core business, and we are Bonded Importers by the Customs Dept/Dept of the Treasury.

ALL Commercial Trade of any & all Ivory is strictly banned by the CITES Convention. Any amount of ivory coming in OR leaving the country "must" be approved by Customs. You can request a CITES form at Customs or your friendly local Customs Broker can do it for a fee.

Here's a list of all participating countries: http://www.fws.gov/international/cites/citeslop.html

Some countires, specifically the PI, don't even attempt to enforce CITES. But if you're buying one of those piece of crap PI cues loaded with Ivory, you really should get the necessary approval from Customs before having the cue shipped. The process takes about 30-days.

Exporting falls under the same rules, Barbara. If you're exporting a cue to JP, or any country on the list, you really need to register (license) that ivory with Customs prior to shipping. The Law is "No Commercial Trade", which applies equally to both import & export activities.

I'm sure we can all cite the hundreds of times that a cue has been shipped out or imported in without doing the paperwork, but the poster asked for advice on trading items with Ivory. And the proper advice to give is that ALL IVORY, whether in-bound or out, must be registered/approved by Customs, in accordance with US and International Laws, as governed by the CITES Convention/Treaty.

Should you decide to risk it (which most people for cues do), you will defientely lose the stick and possibly be fined (though rare for that amount), if Customs decides to do a spot check on your package.

But now that Customs falls under DHS, more packages are being physically examined - an order of magnitude greater. But it doesn't cost a cent to fill out the CITES form.

BTW, even pre-ban Ivory should be registered if importing or exporting, or even re-importing.

And for the people who think that Ivory from a hippopatumus is OK, but from an elephant (all Asian & All African species) is not OK - thinik again. Ivory has been under a worldwide TRADE BAN since 1989. The only legal trade of ivory is currently that from a mammoth, provided the animal died naturally. ( Of course, not many Mammoths running around Kansas, eh, Dorothy?) Also, about 3-years ago the collective, wonderous wisdom of the UN decided that limited ivory from certain African countries was now OK, provided all pprwrk is in order. This was the UN's answer to starving children, but that's another thread.

-Rhett

\\

i don't know rhett,,,,,this sounds like reporting asbestos when it's just better to take it out yourself(the corrugated type). i mean,,,you're probably right and all but,,,,,tell me what the process is for customs to inspect merchandise they have no clue about ....ie,,,if i say "cue stick" on the description,,,,will customs automatically inspect the cue just to make sure? if i say "mah jongg" set will customs check the tiles? if i say"letter opener", will customs check THAT?

i know someone who mentioned ivory inlays when describing a fancy SW, and he ended up waiting a year for the cue to pass customs in japan.

 

[catscradle]

Well all I know is, if you're shipping to Japan, just report "pool cue" on the shipping label and that's all folks. Details are best left out. Japan's really a stickler on imports and will take all necessary measures to confiscate anything suspicious. Even if it is fake looking ivory.

Barbara

That's interesting they're so worried about those Elephants, but they don't seem as concerned about endangered whales. Sounds like the typical liberal when it's convient, but not when it's an inconvient.

 

[catscradle]

... The only legal trade of ivory is currently that from a mammoth, provided the animal died naturally. ( Of course, not many Mammoths running around Kansas, eh, Dorothy?) ...

-Rhett

So do you have to hire an anthropologist to examine the fossil remains and determine whether or not the mammoth died of eating some bad berries or was speared by a cave man (unnatural cause)?

 

[Snapshot9]

Actually there are ...

Excuse me, Barbara, but that's just terrible advice. We import/export as part of our core business, and we are Bonded Importers by the Customs Dept/Dept of the Treasury.

ALL Commercial Trade of any & all Ivory is strictly banned by the CITES Convention. Any amount of ivory coming in OR leaving the country "must" be approved by Customs. You can request a CITES form at Customs or your friendly local Customs Broker can do it for a fee.

Here's a list of all participating countries: http://www.fws.gov/international/cites/citeslop.html

Some countires, specifically the PI, don't even attempt to enforce CITES. But if you're buying one of those piece of crap PI cues loaded with Ivory, you really should get the necessary approval from Customs before having the cue shipped. The process takes about 30-days.

Exporting falls under the same rules, Barbara. If you're exporting a cue to JP, or any country on the list, you really need to register (license) that ivory with Customs prior to shipping. The Law is "No Commercial Trade", which applies equally to both import & export activities.

I'm sure we can all cite the hundreds of times that a cue has been shipped out or imported in without doing the paperwork, but the poster asked for advice on trading items with Ivory. And the proper advice to give is that ALL IVORY, whether in-bound or out, must be registered/approved by Customs, in accordance with US and International Laws, as governed by the CITES Convention/Treaty.

Should you decide to risk it (which most people for cues do), you will defientely lose the stick and possibly be fined (though rare for that amount), if Customs decides to do a spot check on your package.

But now that Customs falls under DHS, more packages are being physically examined - an order of magnitude greater. But it doesn't cost a cent to fill out the CITES form.

BTW, even pre-ban Ivory should be registered if importing or exporting, or even re-importing.

And for the people who think that Ivory from a hippopatumus is OK, but from an elephant (all Asian & All African species) is not OK - thinik again. Ivory has been under a worldwide TRADE BAN since 1989. The only legal trade of ivory is currently that from a mammoth, provided the animal died naturally. ( Of course, not many Mammoths running around Kansas, eh, Dorothy?) Also, about 3-years ago the collective, wonderous wisdom of the UN decided that limited ivory from certain African countries was now OK, provided all pprwrk is in order. This was the UN's answer to starving children, but that's another thread.

-Rhett

More Mammoths running around Kansas than you think. About 2 months ago,
here in Wichita, construction workers working on a major highway renonvation
(Highway 54, Kellog in Wichita) discovered under the dirt, down under some, a
tusk belonging as it was determined later, to a mammoth from jillions of years
ago. They took the tusk to Wichita State University, where experts are
examining and testing it. Sorry to make a liar out of you, but thought you
might enjoy knowing ....

Anyone salivating now can forget it, it will end up in a museum, and not
on cues ... lol

 

[VonRhett]

[QUOTE=bruin70]
i don't know rhett,,,,,this sounds like reporting asbestos when it's just better to take it out yourself(the corrugated type). i mean,,,you're probably right and all but,,,,,tell me what the process is for customs to inspect merchandise they have no clue about ....ie,,,if i say "cue stick" on the description,,,,will customs automatically inspect the cue just to make sure? if i say "mah jongg" set will customs check the tiles? if i say"letter opener", will customs check THAT?
i know someone who mentioned ivory inlays when describing a fancy SW, and he ended up waiting a year for the cue to pass customs in japan.[/QUOTE]

Will Customs automatically check? No. Unless the package or description is suspect, or could contain contraban.

However, approx 1/9 packages are inspected. Some are electronically "sniffed", others are X-rayed, others are physically opened. These spot checks are not affected by the package, size, weight or desciption.

i know someone who mentioned ivory inlays when describing a fancy SW, and he ended up waiting a year for the cue to pass customs in japan Again, a simple form could have prevented that. mentioning ivory is not the same as having it approved. CITES enforcement is no worse in JP than here or the UK. It's an International Treaty.

As earlier referenced, the vast majority of people don't mention ivory, or do the paperwork. My point is simply that they run a risk by doing so. I am neither condoning nor condemning the activity.

The poster asked "what's the deal with ivory?" The deal is that someone is supposed to get the approval from Fish & Wildlife (CITES form), and provide that to Customs.

if i say "mah jongg" set will customs check the tiles? if i say"letter opener", will customs check THAT?

Of course not. BUT - if that package is selected for a random check, and the description is wrong, it will be confiscated.

 

[bruin70]

[[

Of course not. BUT - if that package is selected for a random check, and the description is wrong, it will be confiscated.

what is the penalty?

i can see a reasonble scenario wherein the sender declares a mahjong set without mentioning "ivory". purely an omission of detail that the sender may not have thought about.

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

what is the penalty?

Confiscation, then the illegal Item is Held in a US Customs, or US Fish & Wildlife Warehouse until they get enough stuff to build a Big Fire...

I remember a few years ago going on a Cruise in the Western Caribbean, several passenders on the Cruise purchased Gold Jewelry, Watches, etc., and some Mistakenly FORGOT to declare the Goodies on their Custom Declaration, as the importation of these goods was FREE up to a Certain Dollar Limit, No Foul.

But the High Dollar Stuff over the legal dollar limit, Gold Jewelry, Rolex Watches, (some hidden in luggaed, and some wron on people) and other High Dollar items was allowed to Pass Through Customs after the Proper Duty in U.S. Dollar was Paid on the Spot.

Think you could bring back $300.00/Person in goodies from you trip. Without paying an Import FEES... Uncle Sam wants there Money....

Also remember years ago ordering a Minolta Camera from A White Photo in Hong Kong, I had to go to the Main Post Office to pickup my Camera, and open the box in front of a Postal Inspector.

Reason was they were not allowing the Mail Import of Nikon Cameras. Had my Camera been a Nikon I would have had 2 choices, file off the Nikon Logo/Name, or have the illegal import Seized.

Glad I bought a Minolta.

US Customs, or US Fish & Wildlife Inspector are trained to spot REAL IVORY, and they have the Law, Badges, and Guns on their side....

 

[Tokyo-dave]

When a buyer like myself here in Japan, purchases a cue from a cue maker in the states, is the paperwork concerning the ivory the responsibility of the cue maker shipping the cue, or the responsibility of the buyer? I've read all the regs concerning ivory, but it was so confusing that I couldn't make heads or tail. First of all, you have to be able to prove that the ivory used in the cue is 'legal', and how do you go about doing that? No cue makers I've ever come across have ever provided me with paperwork that verified the sources of their ivory.
Also, the customs (Fish and Wildlife) are not a bunch of experts!! I sent a cue for repair to the states only to have it held up in Alaska for a month. I was told that the ferrules were ivory (which they weren't), once we cleared that up, they then tried to tell me that the wrap was monitor skin!! I paid about $70 for that pressed pig skin, and they tried to tell me that it was monitor. Tell me where I can get monitor for $70!!!! We fought and fought, and they said that they would remove the leather for testing. My question was "ok, remove the leather, and once you jerks confirm that it's not leather, will you replace it, or reimburse me for the cost of having it wrapped again?" Of course the answer was no. I felt like I was being bullied buy a bunch of 'experts' that couldn't tell the difference between LBM and ivory!!!

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

Ask the same Question to Three People/Experts, and get three answers

When a buyer like myself here in Japan, purchases a cue from a cue maker in the states, is the paperwork concerning the ivory the responsibility of the cue maker shipping the cue, or the responsibility of the buyer? I've read all the regs concerning ivory, but it was so confusing that I couldn't make heads or tail. First of all, you have to be able to prove that the ivory used in the cue is 'legal', and how do you go about doing that? No cue makers I've ever come across have ever provided me with paperwork that verified the sources of their ivory.
Also, the customs (Fish and Wildlife) are not a bunch of experts!! I sent a cue for repair to the states only to have it held up in Alaska for a month. I was told that the ferrules were ivory (which they weren't), once we cleared that up, they then tried to tell me that the wrap was monitor skin!! I paid about $70 for that pressed pig skin, and they tried to tell me that it was monitor. Tell me where I can get monitor for $70!!!! We fought and fought, and they said that they would remove the leather for testing. My question was "ok, remove the leather, and once you jerks confirm that it's not leather, will you replace it, or reimburse me for the cost of having it wrapped again?" Of course the answer was no. I felt like I was being bullied buy a bunch of 'experts' that couldn't tell the difference between LBM and ivory!!!

Dealing with the FUZZ, & Experts sure is FUN... Funny thing about the Police, Customs Inspectors, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Experts, Game Wardens, etc..

Ask the same Question to Three People/Experts, and get three answers....

P.S. Dave

What happen to you Cue? Did it get to its Destination, and did you get it back? End of Story PLEASE......

 

[bruin70]

When a buyer like myself here in Japan, purchases a cue from a cue maker in the states, is the paperwork concerning the ivory the resp,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,was being bullied buy a bunch of 'experts' that couldn't tell the difference between LBM and ivory!!!

there's the rub. BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, customs have so much power to delay, they can jerk you around as long as they want, and there's nothing you can do except sit idly by.

 

[bruin70]

Confiscation, then the illegal Item is Held in a US Customs, or US Fish & Wildlife Warehouse until they get enough stuff to build a Big Fire...


US Customs, or US Fish & Wildlife Inspector are trained to spot REAL IVORY, and they have the Law, Badges, and Guns on their side....

so far, i haven't heard a real good arguement to declare, even if the ivory is legal. customs will do whatever they want,,,with their pretense being "suspicion"

 

[Colin Colenso]

Excuse me, Barbara, but that's just terrible advice. We import/export as part of our core business, and we are Bonded Importers by the Customs Dept/Dept of the Treasury.

ALL Commercial Trade of any & all Ivory is strictly banned by the CITES Convention. Any amount of ivory coming in OR leaving the country "must" be approved by Customs. You can request a CITES form at Customs or your friendly local Customs Broker can do it for a fee.

Here's a list of all participating countries: http://www.fws.gov/international/cites/citeslop.html

Some countires, specifically the PI, don't even attempt to enforce CITES. But if you're buying one of those piece of crap PI cues loaded with Ivory, you really should get the necessary approval from Customs before having the cue shipped. The process takes about 30-days.

Exporting falls under the same rules, Barbara. If you're exporting a cue to JP, or any country on the list, you really need to register (license) that ivory with Customs prior to shipping. The Law is "No Commercial Trade", which applies equally to both import & export activities.

I'm sure we can all cite the hundreds of times that a cue has been shipped out or imported in without doing the paperwork, but the poster asked for advice on trading items with Ivory. And the proper advice to give is that ALL IVORY, whether in-bound or out, must be registered/approved by Customs, in accordance with US and International Laws, as governed by the CITES Convention/Treaty.

Should you decide to risk it (which most people for cues do), you will defientely lose the stick and possibly be fined (though rare for that amount), if Customs decides to do a spot check on your package.

But now that Customs falls under DHS, more packages are being physically examined - an order of magnitude greater. But it doesn't cost a cent to fill out the CITES form.

BTW, even pre-ban Ivory should be registered if importing or exporting, or even re-importing.

And for the people who think that Ivory from a hippopatumus is OK, but from an elephant (all Asian & All African species) is not OK - thinik again. Ivory has been under a worldwide TRADE BAN since 1989. The only legal trade of ivory is currently that from a mammoth, provided the animal died naturally. ( Of course, not many Mammoths running around Kansas, eh, Dorothy?) Also, about 3-years ago the collective, wonderous wisdom of the UN decided that limited ivory from certain African countries was now OK, provided all pprwrk is in order. This was the UN's answer to starving children, but that's another thread.

-Rhett

The best solution to all this ivory nonsense is allowing elephants to be farmed and ivory to be sold on the free market.

That way there would be an abuncance of elephants in the same way as their is an abundance of sheep, cattle, pigs etc. Banning trade and animal husbundy leads to extinction. Just as price restrictions lead to shortages.

Trust governments and bureaucrats to stuff everything up!

 

[Tokyo-dave]

Dealing with the FUZZ, & Experts sure is FUN... Funny thing about the Police, Customs Inspectors, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Experts, Game Wardens, etc..

Ask the same Question to Three People/Experts, and get three answers....

P.S. Dave

What happen to you Cue? Did it get to its Destination, and did you get it back? End of Story PLEASE......

I had to call the office in Alaska to first explain to them that the reason that I didn't have any paperwork for the ivory was because "THERE IS NO #$%%*ING IVORY IN THAT CUE!!!!" And since I couldn't prove that the wrap was not monitor, the only way possible was for them to remove it and run tests. I ended up having them sending my cue back to me, so in the end result, my cue took a round trip to Alaska and back. From what I hear, I might have been lucky just to get the thing back. However, I was fully prepared to fly to Alaska to get it back personally.

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

From what I hear, I might have been lucky just to get the thing back. However, I was fully prepared to fly to Alaska to get it back personally.

You are lucky you got it back...