APA 9 ball Rules

[Jude Rosenstock]

There are lots reasons to lay up. Say you can make the 3 (but tough to get in the right place for the 4) but you have to make the 4 and break the 5 out of a pack. Do you make the 3 and hope to get in the right place so you can make the 4 and get the breakout you want, or do you make the 3 and try to hook the 4 if you don't get in the right place?

If you have a better chance of hooking him on the 3 rather than the 4, then why make it and screw yourself if you don't get in the right place. Even if you don't hook him, you're going to put it in a place that will make it tough for him to put a run together.

If the ONLY objective is to make the nine, then it doesn't matter how many of the other balls you make. I don't care if the other guy makes seven or eight balls as long as I make the last one.

At least that's what I was thinking. Turns out it's better to make the 3 and 4 even if you don't get in the right place because that's two points.

I'm not following you here. I don't know what ball you're shooting on nor do I really care.


Here is a simple philosophy that you should consider: Either you pocket the ball or you play safe. When you do play safe, make sure they can't pocket the ball. In fact, it's best when they're jumping, kicking or curving. If your intent is not to run out then your intent should be to safe with the hopes of receiving ball-in-hand as a result.

If you feel that allowing your opponent to clear the table for you is good strategy, I would strongly recommend that you keep this game on a casual level. I don't care if there is a problem down the road or whatever. There is almost always an offensive or defensive solution better than allowing your opponent to address it.

I'm sorry for being blunt but this is D-level stuff. I hope the people that use this forum have aspirations higher than this.

 

[Jeff]

I'm not following you here. I don't know what ball you're shooting on nor do I really care.

Well, you for sure are not following me and I do care.

If you feel that allowing your opponent to clear the table for you is good strategy, I would strongly recommend that you keep this game on a casual level.

And just where do you see that anywhere

I'm sorry for being blunt but this is D-level stuff. I hope the people that use this forum have aspirations higher than this.

Being blunt is ok as long as you understand what you are reading.

 

[Gregg]

Being blunt is ok as long as you understand what you are reading.

Either not understanding or choosing not to read and blindly posting.

Strategy is strategy, on any level. Sure in some cases you and your opponent's ability must come into question, but what we are discussing here has little to do with A+ or D- shooter skill levels.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Well, you for sure are not following me and I do care.



And just where do you see that anywhere



Being blunt is ok as long as you understand what you are reading.

You said in your original post: "But I was shocked as I had been playing and laying up when I could have made some balls because I was looking at the end game of winning (making the 9)."

This suggested to me that you were allowing your opponent to clear the table, thinking they would not make the 9-ball. I got this impression based on the fact that you allowed them to score more points than you normally would had you known the scoring format. If you safed successfully, they would not be able to pocket the next ball hence, they would not have scored additional points and you would have gotten your win.

In my opinion, APA 9-ball versus normal 9-ball is no different until you get to the final few points. That is to say, you play the same shots as you would normally until you reach the final few points of the match. Then and only then do you forget about the rack and focus on each individual ball.

You led me to believe that your focus was not on controlling the table from start to finish but only taking control when the getting-out was foreseeable. When you properly control the table, opponents don't pocket balls.

 

[Jeff]

You said in your original post: "But I was shocked as I had been playing and laying up when I could have made some balls because I was looking at the end game of winning (making the 9)."

Maybe my explanation isn't the best.

I tend to think in odds, maybe too much.

If I have a 95% chance of hooking a guy on the 5 and I believe I have a 30% chance of making the 5 and finishing the run, then I'm going to hook on the 5.

With the APA rules, I would make the 5 and take the chance of making a few more even if I didn't think I had a very good chance of finishing out.

 

[Gregg]

In my opinion, APA 9-ball versus normal 9-ball is no different until you get to the final few points. That is to say, you play the same shots as you would normally until you reach the final few points of the match. Then and only then do you forget about the rack and focus on each individual ball.

The logic (or lack there of) is to say that you don't have to worry about scoring points or your opponent scoring points until the game comes down to the wire, when either your or your opponent are close to their needed points to end the match.

Why not worry about the points off at the start, beginning, and end, that way you gain the most team points and win by a larger split (how team points are calculated)?

Why not tell a basket ball team not to worry about score of a game until the final two minutes (when the game may be well lost or won)?

Sorry, but I just don't see the logic.

And, no, I don't believe you read my post about how and why you play APA nine ball differently than U.S. Open rules.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Maybe my explanation isn't the best.

I tend to think in odds, maybe too much.

If I have a 95% chance of hooking a guy on the 5 and I believe I have a 30% chance of making the 5 and finishing the run, then I'm going to hook on the 5.

With the APA rules, I would make the 5 and take the chance of making a few more even if I didn't think I had a very good chance of finishing out.

No, I don't think it's wrong to think in terms of odds. It's what's called being a Percentage-Player. The shot with the higher percentage of success is the correct shot. With the numbers you provided (95% success-rate on the safety and 30% success rate on pocketing the ball), I would venture to say you made the correct decision. Unfortunately, it appears you just failed to execute (happens to all of us).

In sum, your strategy for APA 9-ball should be incredibly similar to your strategy for standard 9-ball. The only difference would be end-of-match scenarios but that has more to do with positioning than anything else. You'll play straight on the match-winning ball as though it were the final 9-ball in standard play. Or, if you're opponent needs 3 points and you cannot contact the 1-ball, tying up anything beyond the 3-ball will not serve any purpose. Beyond scenarios like that, the format demands that you be MORE defensive since you want to control the table as much as possible.

I think you just lost this time but if you're playing defensively when appropriate you'll do fine in the long-run. I think those that get more aggressive than they normally would are going to have problems being consistently competitive.

 

[Jeff]

In sum, your strategy for APA 9-ball should be incredibly similar to your strategy for standard 9-ball.

"Similar" is the same thing as "close", and have you ever heard the expression, "close is only good in hand grenades and horseshoes".

In regular 9-ball the prize (or goal) is the 9 ball. In APA the prize (or goal) is points. That's not close, that's a big difference.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

"Similar" is the same thing as "close", and have you ever heard the expression, "close is only good in hand grenades and horseshoes".

In regular 9-ball the prize (or goal) is the 9 ball. In APA the prize (or goal) is points. That's not close, that's a big difference.

Ok Jeff, let me put it another way: I understand the scoring system perfectly. I know the differences. Can you please show me a shot where playing safe is incorrect because of the point system? We'll say it's the first rack so the end-game scenario is moot.

 

[Gregg]

No, I don't think it's wrong to think in terms of odds. It's what's called being a Percentage-Player. The shot with the higher percentage of success is the correct shot. With the numbers you provided (95% success-rate on the safety and 30% success rate on pocketing the ball), I would venture to say you made the correct decision. Unfortunately, it appears you just failed to execute (happens to all of us).

In sum, your strategy for APA 9-ball should be incredibly similar to your strategy for standard 9-ball. The only difference would be end-of-match scenarios but that has more to do with positioning than anything else. You'll play straight on the match-winning ball as though it were the final 9-ball in standard play. Or, if you're opponent needs 3 points and you cannot contact the 1-ball, tying up anything beyond the 3-ball will not serve any purpose. Beyond scenarios like that, the format demands that you be MORE defensive since you want to control the table as much as possible.

I think you just lost this time but if you're playing defensively when appropriate you'll do fine in the long-run. I think those that get more aggressive than they normally would are going to have problems being consistently competitive.

This is going nowhere.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This is going nowhere.

Which is why I asked Jeff to illustrate his point. If someone can show me one shot that is exclusive to APA 9-ball, I'd be happy to see it. Must be first-rack though. Obviously things are diff. in the end.

 

[Jeff]

Ok Jeff, let me put it another way: I understand the scoring system perfectly. I know the differences. Can you please show me a shot where playing safe is incorrect because of the point system? We'll say it's the first rack so the end-game scenario is moot.

For me, and I can only say this from one experience at APA 9 ball. But the odds you use to determine what you do in regular 9 ball compared to APA will be very different, they will be lower. In APA, I will go with shots where the odds say I won't finish to the nine because the goal is different.

 

[bsmutz]

Man, I can't believe Jude can't through to you guys. What he's saying is that even though the scoring is different, the goal should still be the same. You want to be at the table and if you have to give it up, you want to give it up so that your opponent doesn't have a chance to make balls. I agree with him that in either case you don't want to let your opponent shoot all the balls in hoping that he will get tripped up as he gets closer to the 9-ball. I do this in 8-ball sometimes when a good safety doesn't present itself. I'll hope that having one or two of my opponents balls tied up will be enough to keep him from getting out. It doesn't always work out, but sometimes it pays off with a win. It just isn't as effective in 9-ball. It's just a better strategy more of the time to play safe for the next ball when you have to give up the table in 9-ball.

 

[Jeff]

Man, I can't believe Jude can't through to you guys. What he's saying is that even though the scoring is different, the goal should still be the same.

But the "goal" IS different. As Greg, said, this is going nowhere. People look at things diffrently, and I guess we will have to leave it at that.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

For me, and I can only say this from one experience at APA 9 ball. But the odds you use to determine what you do in regular 9 ball compared to APA will be very different, they will be lower. In APA, I will go with shots where the odds say I won't finish to the nine because the goal is different.

Please show me an example otherwise, let's just drop it. I honestly don't think you can.

 

[ScottW]

This is going nowhere.

What gave it away?

APA 9-ball rules are what they are. Simple as that. Some folks like'em, some don't. Big whoop!

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jeff, you stated "Sometimes it's good to make a ball, scratch on purpose, to let someone else deal with a cluster. Sounds crazy with regulation U.S. Open nine ball rules, but is good strategy in certain situations."

If you do this against a competent player, you are handing them the entire rack. Your scoring is done. I mean, this is the type of strategy that's only going to work against someone who can't play. Bringing it up here is like going to a recruiter for a job flipping burgers.

If you want to talk strategy against a good player, I'll continue this. Otherwise, I'm done. I'm not going to offer advice on how to beat a beginner.

 

[Gregg]

Please show me an example otherwise, let's just drop it. I honestly don't think you can.

Jude,

Let me try to try to explain this.

I win the lag, and choose to break. I break open the rack, and drop the six ball. The table is WIDE open, AND the seven is frozen to the nine ball, and the nine ball is dead straight into the pocket. In other words, hit the seven ball from almost anywhere, and I can pocket the nine ball if I want to. If I'm playing in the U.S. Open, the choice is obvious; hit the seven and pocket the nine for the win. But WAIT!@# This is APA, and the correct choice may not be so obvious!@# Take the following layout, after the break, (consider that even a D- player is shooting)

CueTable Help

At this point, I have one point for the six ball down off the break, and now I am faced with a choice; shoot the seven/nine combo for two points (nine is worth two points) and a new rack OR...

I could shoot the one, two, three, four, five, and then the seven/nine combo. This would likely leave two dead balls (seven and the eight) and would come away with eight points, instead of only three.

See where this can change the strategy, even at the beginning of the game? This happens all the time.

And, as I said (and I hope you read it) the break on a bar table often leave the cue ball snookered off the break on the congested bar tables APAers commonly shoot on, so it's not always safe to count on a strong break or a shot after a new rack.

Keep in mind this is one of many variations that come up durning APA 9 ball play.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,

Let me try to try to explain this.

I win the lag, and chose to break. I break open the rack, and drop the six ball. The table is WIDE open, AND the seven is frozen to the nine ball, and the nine ball is dead straight into the pocket. In other words, hit the seven ball from almost anywhere, and I can pocket the nine ball if I want to. If I playing in the U.S. Open, the choice is obvious; hit the seven and pocket the nine for the win. But WAIT!@# This is APA, and the correct choice may not be so obvious!@# Take the following layout, after the break, (consider that even a D- player is shooting)

CueTable Help

At this point, I have one point for the six ball down off the break, and now I am faced with a choice; shoot the seven/nine combo for two points (nine is worth two points) and a new rack OR...

I could shoot the one, two, three, four, five, and then the seven/nine combo. This would likely leave two dead balls (seven and the eight) and would come away with eight points, instead of only three.

See where this can change the strategy, even at the beginning of the game? This happens all the time.

And, as I said (and I hope you read it) the break on a bar table often leave the cue ball snookered off the break on the congested bar tables APAerscommonly shoot on, so it's not always safe to count on a strong break or a shot after a new rack.

Keep in mind this is one of many variations that come up durning APA 9 ball play.

Ok, I've reviewed your example and can say with certainty, there are absolutely no alternatives here. This rack will end with a 7-9 combination. Some players may even look for ways to avoid running to the 7-ball but the proper approach would be to pocket the balls in order to the 7-9. Any route that would allow you to clear the entire table would be extremely risky and low-percentage.

 

[Jeff]

Jeff, you stated "Sometimes it's good to make a ball, scratch on purpose, to let someone else deal with a cluster.

This will be my last post directed at, or answering you in this thread. NO WHERE did I say ANYTHING about "scratching" on purpose. As I said earlier, you are putting words in my mouth and frankly I think you are trying to prove something to everyone reading this. What you are trying to prove is beyond me, but I'm done with being part of it.

If you want to talk strategy against a good player, I'll continue this. Otherwise, I'm done. I'm not going to offer advice on how to beat a beginner.

I really don't know who you think you are, are you on the circuit, are you sponsored by anyone?

I'm not a pro, I'm a 6 in APA but I think I can hold my own with most people. Here's a quarter (25¢), go call someone who wants to listen to you.