APA aha moment

[justadub]

That is why I say the APA is brilliant. Everyone that plays for any length of time will get better. So eventually the team will be too strong and the higher SL players will be forced to quit the team and start there own if they want to play in the APA. This is why I say it is a pyramid scheme. The higher SL you get the more likely you are to have to start a new team and find some weak players.

That isn't necessarily true, at least around here. (And yes, every area is different, even though we all feed into the same computer system. Interesting.)

I've been playing APA for about 5 years. What I've seen is that many folks will improve once they start playing regularly, but they will only improve so far...and then settle in to that skill level. Note that I said "many" folks. There will always be some who truly drive themselves to improve and have the ability and time to do so. Still, the majority of casual league players will settle in to their skill level and remain there, within one level up or down, for the most part.

We have had a few folks go right up through the skill levels, up to 7/8. But we have a large, very large majority who stall out at SL5. A few bump up to SL6, and some of them come back down to SL5 again. Same with the SL3's and SL4's. Most folks here seem to hit their ability level, and hang there.

Is this an indictment of APA, and that ALL these folks are sandbagging, no. These folks are trying to win, and playing their once or twice a week pool matches, with no real concentrated effort to improve in a dramatic way. Doesn't mean they don't care, or that they aren't trying to win, just that they don't play pool a lot and they aren't driven to improve in their spare time.

That having been said, we occasionally have one or two teams that get out of balance because a few of the newer players move up, and haven't found their playing level yet. But we rarely have teams break up because of Skill Level issues. And we have between 8 and 14 teams most sessions.

A large majority of us have been playing for at least a few years, many for a very long time. We can always manage to get a player onto another team. Or that player might decide they want to make a new team, and a few of the teams shuffle players, yes bringing in some new blood as well. Then again, we all like playing, and we all get along, so perhaps this is why it isn't such a big deal.

It is a shame that the APA brings more new people into the game, isn't it?

It sounds like the OP is one of those "better" players who probably should be playing in a different format. Still, I will maintain that you can play an SL7/8 if you want to, and you don't have to go changing your team all the time. It can happen, it has for me and for ours for the last 5 years that I've played. (I will admit handling an SL9 must be quite a challenge. Never had that experience.)

 

[purpdrag]

Purpdrag,
I was just like that last year and started getting bored and lost games. This year I started focusing on just playing myself and I have been winning more consistantly. I start each match off with really concentrating on winning the lag, shut outs and trying to get as many b/r as possible so it wouldnt matter who I am playing. Last session I went 10- 1 with 5 rackless and 7 b/r. So far this session I am 10-0 with only 2 rackless but 8 b/r. We play on crappy Connelly tables that arent maintained so the b/r are tough because of bad rolls.

Nice, I've only had 2 b/rs that I can remember and maybe 4 or 5 rackless but I recently looked at my stats and I haven't been credited with any of them so that goes a long way to explaining why I am still a 6. I'm pretty disappointed with my b/r% so that is something I am hoping and working to improve now.

 

[krupa]

I recently started playing again and joined the APA league and quickly moved up and now I am the score keeper because if I play it puts our team over the 23 point system. So know if I want to play I have to start my own team in January with some low skilled players.

APA is brilliant. When you get up to a high SL then you have to recruit weaker players to join so you can play. When they get good, then they have to start a team and find weak players so that they can play. What a brilliant pyramid scheme....I wish I had thought of it....

Clearly this is the work of a criminal mastermind. Getting people to encourage others to start playing pool is dastardly!

Getting existing customers (i.e., pool players) to refer new customers (i.e., pool players) is a great way to grow your business and in this case, grow the sport (the bastards!)

The hard truth for pool is that people can be very intimidated to pick up a cue and play against someone after they watched them run a few balls. Having a friend encourage them to play makes for an easy, comfortable introduction.

The only downside to getting more people playing pool is.... uh... an increased interest in pool? And no one wants that? I am confused.

 

[tashworth19191]

I think it is great to get new people into the game and strongly encourage it. I just don't like watching other play and keeping score all the time because my skill level is so high that it forces my team to make me sit out. In another words, I would like to be included and allowed to play more. I think all of you APA operators want me to be your new player recruiting tool, that is why you force me to sit out until I form a new team that has low skilled new players on it.

I wish you luck in this, but I want to play for a league that values me, not makes me keep score for beginners...

 

[ctyhntr]

Have you asked your APA league operator about joining the Masters division? There is no skill level limit, and you only need 3 people to start a team, unlike 5 people in 8-ball.

If your local APA operator doesn't offer anything other than 8-ball, then I don't see how the action of your league operator should reflect all league operators.

I think it is great to get new people into the game and strongly encourage it. I just don't like watching other play and keeping score all the time because my skill level is so high that it forces my team to make me sit out. In another words, I would like to be included and allowed to play more. I think all of you APA operators want me to be your new player recruiting tool, that is why you force me to sit out until I form a new team that has low skilled new players on it.

I wish you luck in this, but I want to play for a league that values me, not makes me keep score for beginners...

 

[lorider]

I think it is great to get new people into the game and strongly encourage it. I just don't like watching other play and keeping score all the time because my skill level is so high that it forces my team to make me sit out. In another words, I would like to be included and allowed to play more. I think all of you APA operators want me to be your new player recruiting tool, that is why you force me to sit out until I form a new team that has low skilled new players on it.

I wish you luck in this, but I want to play for a league that values me, not makes me keep score for beginners...

i dont understand what your problem is . according to you ....you joined a team and quickly rose in handicap so the captain makes you keep score and never plays you.? i think your problem is with your captain ...not the apa.

what is your handicap now and what is all of your team mates handicap ? i have had a 7/9 on my team for a year,,,i also have a new player that started last session as a 4/4 and is now a 6/7. obviously i can not play both of them the same night but i can switch them up every other week. and switch every one else up also. we play 5 matches with 8 players.....aint no one on my team sitting out 2 weeks in a row.

i sit out several times a session to ensure every one on the team gets their share of matches in. playoffs or higher level tournys are a different matter. i then play the strongest team i can field.

even if you are a 7 the only way you would have to sit out is if your team is top heavy.

in 8 ball my team consists of 2-3's ...3-4's 1 - 5. ..1 - 6 and 1 - 7.

9 ball consists of 2- 2's. both are males and can not play in play offs or higher as 2's " they have to play as 3's ". .. 1 - 3...1 - 4 .. 2- 5's ... 1 - 7 and 1 - 9.

 

[justadub]

I think it is great to get new people into the game and strongly encourage it. I just don't like watching other play and keeping score all the time because my skill level is so high that it forces my team to make me sit out. In another words, I would like to be included and allowed to play more. I think all of you APA operators want me to be your new player recruiting tool, that is why you force me to sit out until I form a new team that has low skilled new players on it.

I wish you luck in this, but I want to play for a league that values me, not makes me keep score for beginners...

My 7 played at least 75% of the time this session. We have 7-5-5-5-4-3-3-3.

As I said before, I want my best player playing.

And I rarely let him keep score. Not cuz he can't, I want him playing on the practice table with others, helping them. And being around for coaching. I can keep score.

As lorider points out, your problem isn't the APA, its your team captain.

 

[tashworth19191]

I want to thank you guys that say it is my captain and yes he is part of the problem. The real problem is that the APA does not offer a solution for leagues that are top heavy. Most of our teams have 2-7's in 8-ball and several 9's in 9-Ball. Me being one of them. They don't offer a Master's and they don't offer a solution (other than recruit weak players). My main complaint is the 23 point system. They should come up with some sort of handicap system that would penalize teams that go over 23 points, but still allow the team to play it's best players. I really could care less if my team wins, I just want to play and not have to sandbag to keep my SL low so that I can play.

 

[krupa]

I want to thank you guys that say it is my captain and yes he is part of the problem. The real problem is that the APA does not offer a solution for leagues that are top heavy.

Yes, the APA has a solution for leagues that are top heavy. It's called APA Masters.

Most of our teams have 2-7's in 8-ball and several 9's in 9-Ball. Me being one of them. They don't offer a Master's and they don't offer a solution (other than recruit weak players).

Correction: Your Local League Operator does not offer a Master's division. If you want to keep playing in the APA, you need to talk to your LO and try to get a Master's division started.

My main complaint is the 23 point system. They should come up with some sort of handicap system that would penalize teams that go over 23 points, but still allow the team to play it's best players. I really could care less if my team wins, I just want to play and not have to sandbag to keep my SL low so that I can play.

Your complaint about APA has been thoroughly documented in this and other threads. People have made suggestions that might enable you to play more and you respond with the same complaint about the 23 rule. Fine, we get it.

At the end of the day, you don't have to play APA. There are other league systems out there. You could even try starting your own. I hear that it's pretty cheap to buy a NAPA franchise.

 

[tashworth19191]

Yes, the APA
At the end of the day, you don't have to play APA. There are other league systems out there. You could even try starting your own. I hear that it's pretty cheap to buy a NAPA franchise.

I am already doing that. My intention is to sandbag so I can play in APA League, so that I can get in singles tournaments (which is the only reason I really want to play APA). I have already joined other league and they are more reasonable. If APA does not want high SL players, I get it.....

 

[DAVE_M]

They don't offer a Master's and they don't offer a solution (other than recruit weak players). My main complaint is the 23 point system.

The APA does have a Masters division. The APA also has a Super 30 division, where teams can play up to 30 points, rather than 23.

I really could care less if my team wins, I just want to play and not have to sandbag to keep my SL low so that I can play.

Then you are in the APA for the wrong reasons.

My intention is to sandbag so I can play in APA League, so that I can get in singles tournaments (which is the only reason I really want to play APA).

Sandbagging is frowned upon. You will never gain any respect as a cheat and you will never improve your game. The fact that that is your intention says a lot about you. You should be playing in regional and national tournaments, if that's all you want to do.

If you play well enough that you are an elite player in the APA, you should be playing in the APA U.S. Amateur Championship each year. Sandbagging is not the right answer if you are wanting to improve your game. Judging by past threads and posts, that seems like what you are trying to do.

 

[lorider]

I want to thank you guys that say it is my captain and yes he is part of the problem. The real problem is that the APA does not offer a solution for leagues that are top heavy. Most of our teams have 2-7's in 8-ball and several 9's in 9-Ball. Me being one of them. They don't offer a Master's and they don't offer a solution (other than recruit weak players). My main complaint is the 23 point system. They should come up with some sort of handicap system that would penalize teams that go over 23 points, but still allow the team to play it's best players. I really could care less if my team wins, I just want to play and not have to sandbag to keep my SL low so that I can play.

i have given this penalizing teams for going over 23 some thought.

i would be ok with this scenario.

in 9 ball . during the last match if i am 23 or under and you are at 25. we deduct the 2 points over plus your players handicap level from the required points my player needs. say we both throw 2 - 5's.

since the race would normally be 38-38 we deduct your 7 penalty points from my player so my player would only need 31 points to your players 38. if you threw a 7 against my 5 my player points would be reduced to 29 points needed to win. i think this would be pretty simple formula to keep up with.

8 ball how ever would be more difficult due to the scoring system that is in place. as you know the current scoring system give 3 points for a shut out. 2 points for a win with your opponent winning at least 1 rack. losers get no points except 1 if they lose hill-hill.

the only thing i can come up with so far is ....the team over 23 has to win the last match by a shut out.. if the team 23 or under wins at least 1 rack they get 3 points and the team over 23 gets 0.

if both teams are over 23 then no penalties would be enforced.

i think this system would add a lot of excitement and pressure to who ever played the last match. plus rewarding teams who met the 23 rule with out penalizing teams over 23 too harshly.

 

[tashworth19191]

Sandbagging is frowned upon. You will never gain any respect as a cheat and you will never improve your game. The fact that that is your intention says a lot about you. You should be playing in regional and national tournaments, if that's all you want to do.

I am not sure that just hitting the balls and not trying is a cheat and I have said nothing personal about you, but you have no idea about me. I follow the APA rules, but just don't try hard in the league. How is that cheating. APA penalizes me for trying hard, so I adjusted my game to fit their rules. I do play in many regional tournaments and have played in National tournaments in the past. Please keep this on subject and not lower yourself to personal attacks.

 

[DAVE_M]

I am not sure that just hitting the balls and not trying is a cheat and I have said nothing personal about you, but you have no idea about me. I follow the APA rules, but just don't try hard in the league. How is that cheating. APA penalizes me for trying hard, so I adjusted my game to fit their rules. I do play in many regional tournaments and have played in National tournaments in the past. Please keep this on subject and not lower yourself to personal attacks.

It's not a personal attack, unless you view it that way. Yes, "just hitting the balls and not trying" is cheating. It's sandbagging. So when you play SL9 speed and you enter into the tournament as a SL5, that's cheating.

The APA was designed for players to get together and have fun on week nights while improving their game. When certain players exceeded the limits of the APA, the APA came up with a Masters division and Super 30. Along with singles tournaments. If you are exceeding the limits of the APA, you should not be playing in the APA, plain and simple. This is not a personal attack by any means. I do not know you. However, you created a discussion on a public forum and I'm voicing my opinion. I apologize if I have offended you in any manner.

That being said, don't play in the APA if you:
Don't care if your team wins or not
Resort to sandbagging so that you can play

 

[Pete]

Not to nitpick, but it's the American Poolplayer's Association...:grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

For Amateurs lol.

Or is it Any Pocket A oops.

FYI, only being cute not throwing in the gauntlet.

I actually prefer the APA format, not the rating system or general rules but I like races, not play and wait...

 

[tashworth19191]

i have given this penalizing teams for going over 23 some thought.

i would be ok with this scenario.

in 9 ball . during the last match if i am 23 or under and you are at 25. we deduct the 2 points over plus your players handicap level from the required points my player needs. say we both throw 2 - 5's.

since the race would normally be 38-38 we deduct your 7 penalty points from my player so my player would only need 31 points to your players 38. if you threw a 7 against my 5 my player points would be reduced to 29 points needed to win. i think this would be pretty simple formula to keep up with.

8 ball how ever would be more difficult due to the scoring system that is in place. as you know the current scoring system give 3 points for a shut out. 2 points for a win with your opponent winning at least 1 rack. losers get no points except 1 if they lose hill-hill.

the only thing i can come up with so far is ....the team over 23 has to win the last match by a shut out.. if the team 23 or under wins at least 1 rack they get 3 points and the team over 23 gets 0.

if both teams are over 23 then no penalties would be enforced.

i think this system would add a lot of excitement and pressure to who ever played the last match. plus rewarding teams who met the 23 rule with out penalizing teams over 23 too harshly.

That is a good idea. I think that is a good penalty system for 9 ball. For 8-Ball, they could give the team that is not over the point difference. For instance if one team is 21 and one team is 25 then give the team that is 21 add 4 points to their score. Sure it may be better for the team that is over to forfeit 3 points instead for last game, but at least the team that has 25 would be able to play... The biggest issue I have is not playing.

BTW... All you guys that PM'd me saying I am an APA hater, I am not. As I stated in this thread, I think the idea is brilliant marketing because they constantly have new customers and I also said I wish I had thought of it. So there is not any hate in my blood. I am just jealous that I did not think of it....

 

[RFranklin]

Apa

Tom,
A couple of suggestions.
1. Dont put anything in writing about intentiionally sandbagging. Frowned upon by LO's that frequent this site and have arbitrary s/l change authority.
2. You shouldnt win 2/3 in 8 and 3/4 in 9 if you want to keep your low, new to APA handicaps. Right below 50% generally keeps you where you are. Take advantage of the matchups with the 9's in 9 ball when you get a chance. a 48-75 race is too easy if you really shoot like you say. That will be huge in Tri cup since your team is in first in 9 right now.
3. Dont use your glamour shot as your avatar. Now all of other Austin AZ members know your mug. Typically these are your higher ranked players, who happen to be team captains, like myself, who need to know how to match up with you.

Ron

 

[APA Operator]

I am not sure that just hitting the balls and not trying is a cheat and I have said nothing personal about you, but you have no idea about me. I follow the APA rules, but just don't try hard in the league. How is that cheating. APA penalizes me for trying hard, so I adjusted my game to fit their rules. I do play in many regional tournaments and have played in National tournaments in the past. Please keep this on subject and not lower yourself to personal attacks.

By not trying hard you are actually part of the problem. Other players are more likely to go up in skill level because they win when you don't try. Then they may be over-rated and lose some matches (intentionally or not), and others may go up as a result.

By the way, just so everyone knows who is speaking here, Mr. Ashworth joined the APA a month ago and has a grand total of seven matches played in APA - 3 matches in 8-Ball and 4 in 9-Ball. He's currently a 6 in 8-Ball and a 5 in 9-Ball, but since he has admitted to sandbagging I'm sure his league operator will be adjusting those numbers soon. If he played in my area I wouldn't even bother adjusting numbers - he would never play another APA match in my area again.

 

[RFranklin]

whoops

By not trying hard you are actually part of the problem. Other players are more likely to go up in skill level because they win when you don't try. Then they may be over-rated and lose some matches (intentionally or not), and others may go up as a result.

By the way, just so everyone knows who is speaking here, Mr. Ashworth joined the APA a month ago and has a grand total of seven matches played in APA - 3 matches in 8-Ball and 4 in 9-Ball. He's currently a 6 in 8-Ball and a 5 in 9-Ball, but since he has admitted to sandbagging I'm sure his league operator will be adjusting those numbers soon. If he played in my area I wouldn't even bother adjusting numbers - he would never play another APA match in my area again.

Rutro. My suggestions may be too late.

 

[DAVE_M]

Rutro. My suggestions may be too late.

:yikes: Rutro is right