I play in the 8 ball league. I have a hard time understand how the handicap formula really works. Is it based more on winning percentage or innings? Does it matter if you defeat a higher handicap player over a lower ranked player?
APA handicap system
- Thread starter AceAngeles
- Start date
1) Fewer innings per game mean higher rating
2) Safeties where you don't lose control of table contribute to higher ratings
3) Beating higher ranked players contribute to higher ratings
4) Beating higher ranked players in near minimum games contributes to even higher ratings
5) Beat low ranked players in other than few innings contributes to lower rating
When I was playing it seemed part of the equation took the number of innings and subtracted out the number of safeties to get a term that was then multiplied by other functions.
It doesnt...
Yea they base it on an average of ..innings and games won......so your rank changes on your performance in match play.
I noticed there is a lot of sandbagging where people lose on purpose....I didnt like that and it happens a lot..You will play people rated 4 that are actually 5 or better..this happened to many times. So I left..I prefer an honest game.
Have funn :grin::thumbup:
I noticed there is a lot of sandbagging where people lose on purpose....I didnt like that and it happens a lot..You will play people rated 4 that are actually 5 or better..this happened to many times. So I left..I prefer an honest game.
Have funn :grin::thumbup:
Based on your best 10 out of last 20 matches
It would interesting to know the formula. It just seems that the secretive nature of the handicap system leads to more difficulty and bad feelings than a more open approach would.
What is the threshold for each s/l in 8 and 9 and how do they get there??? Anyone want to share that info?
I know, it's proprietary, so I guess we'll just keep on guessing and calling each other names. That may be half the fun come to think of it.
What is the threshold for each s/l in 8 and 9 and how do they get there??? Anyone want to share that info?
I know, it's proprietary, so I guess we'll just keep on guessing and calling each other names. That may be half the fun come to think of it.
When I played APA 9 Ball I quickly established myself as an 8. And I was the only 8 in my league. Then a new player came into the 9 ball league and he eventually established his performance as a 9. Whenever I played this 9 rated individual I always won. But I never got my rating bumped up to a 9, and the 9 rated player never got bumped down to an 8. So go figure that...
i don't know the formula but i will say the number of innings is a big part of it....imo. its not who you beat...how often you beat them or your winning percentage ...its how you win.
i recall back when i was raised from a 4 to a 5 . i played a 3 and won 3-0 in 4 innings ...iirc. after the match my g/f ....who had been playing apa for a few years and was the one who got me to join apa said , you will will be a 5 next week. i said ...what makes you think so ? she said ...you just won 3-0 in 4 innings.....4's dont do that. sure enough i was raised the following week.
i just looked up my stats from fall of 2013 when i was raised to a 6 in 8 ball. in 22 matches i had
4- 8 on the break
4- break and runs
1- 8 ball mini slam
6 - rackless
then i came back down to earth and started playing my regular speed and was lowered back to a 5
a few months ago i was raised to a 6 in 9 ball. i was raised due to having one helluva week where the pool gods were smiling down on me ...never missing a shot i should make...getting very good position on every shot and i was breaking like svb.
it started on a fri night where i skunked a 4 by 20-0 in 6 innings.
sat beat a 5 by 18-2
mon i beat a 9 16-4
then i came back down to earth....my break sucked....missed shots i should make ...getting out of shape and was lowered back to a 5.
like i say...how you win has a lot to do with it. i am currently at 70% win record this session including beating an 8 and a couple of 7's but i aint blowing them away like i was when i got raised.
and yea ....been called a sandbagger more than once. truth is ...i have nerve damage in my stroking hand. some times it hurts like hell and i play bad. when it fells good ...i shoot good. simple as that.
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The thing to remember is what the APA calls the "Implied Score" (or "Applied Score" ?)
This means that at your current S/L you SHOULD play only a certain number of innings per game. Lets'say that you're an S/L 5 with a win percentage of 60%. The book says an S/L 5 with a 60% win percentage should play 4 innings per game. So you win your match 4 - 2. In those 6 games you play a total of 32 innings. The 2 games you lost totaled 5 innings, so now those 32 innings go to 27. You also played 4 defensive shots in that match, now the 27 innines goes to 23 innings. Here's where "Implied Score" comes into play. The data entry person will enter those 23 innings, the software then notices that you're an S/L 5. Your 23 innings then becomes 16 innings - 4 per game - "Implied Score"
When you win you can play less than the 4 innings, but you will never play more.
I'm reasonably sure the only games that ever count are the games you win, even in matches you lose. When you lose you get credit for the innings you play in the games you win up to a point. I believe you never exceed (as an S/L 5) the implied score it would have taken to win the match.
With a few more details I have used this formula to track skill levels of a team of players over a calendar year and it proved out to be very accurate, but then I became bored and stopped caring who was ranked what. It kinda takes the fun out of the game.
One other thing to remember is that S/L's can only change when the data has been entered, the data isn't entered every day, sometimes not even every week, sometimes once a month or even less. So you're an S/L 3 after losing your first couple of matches and your data entry person is one of those people that enters stuff once a month, sometimes less. In those 6 or 7 weeks since then you have beat a bunch of senior level players and had 15 break and runs and you're still a 3. Shit happens, you're probably only gonna go up one s/l at a time after the data is entered.
This means that at your current S/L you SHOULD play only a certain number of innings per game. Lets'say that you're an S/L 5 with a win percentage of 60%. The book says an S/L 5 with a 60% win percentage should play 4 innings per game. So you win your match 4 - 2. In those 6 games you play a total of 32 innings. The 2 games you lost totaled 5 innings, so now those 32 innings go to 27. You also played 4 defensive shots in that match, now the 27 innines goes to 23 innings. Here's where "Implied Score" comes into play. The data entry person will enter those 23 innings, the software then notices that you're an S/L 5. Your 23 innings then becomes 16 innings - 4 per game - "Implied Score"
When you win you can play less than the 4 innings, but you will never play more.
I'm reasonably sure the only games that ever count are the games you win, even in matches you lose. When you lose you get credit for the innings you play in the games you win up to a point. I believe you never exceed (as an S/L 5) the implied score it would have taken to win the match.
With a few more details I have used this formula to track skill levels of a team of players over a calendar year and it proved out to be very accurate, but then I became bored and stopped caring who was ranked what. It kinda takes the fun out of the game.
One other thing to remember is that S/L's can only change when the data has been entered, the data isn't entered every day, sometimes not even every week, sometimes once a month or even less. So you're an S/L 3 after losing your first couple of matches and your data entry person is one of those people that enters stuff once a month, sometimes less. In those 6 or 7 weeks since then you have beat a bunch of senior level players and had 15 break and runs and you're still a 3. Shit happens, you're probably only gonna go up one s/l at a time after the data is entered.
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Celophanewrap,
It sounds very interesting what you wrote about applied score. Where did you get the information that the "book says"... What book? I follow everything you wrote except 23 innings, software notices your a 5 S/L Your 23 innings then becomes 16 (did you mean 18?). Thank you for your information. It's frustrating, I am the captain of 2 teams with stats getting updated weekly but many times I'm caught shaking my head how some players never go up and some players seem to go up without reason. I've seen players go 15-1 in a session and never go up.
It sounds very interesting what you wrote about applied score. Where did you get the information that the "book says"... What book? I follow everything you wrote except 23 innings, software notices your a 5 S/L Your 23 innings then becomes 16 (did you mean 18?). Thank you for your information. It's frustrating, I am the captain of 2 teams with stats getting updated weekly but many times I'm caught shaking my head how some players never go up and some players seem to go up without reason. I've seen players go 15-1 in a session and never go up.
im not saying you are wrong....but there are exceptions sometimes.
i don't think some people realize just how much influence an lo has over raising or lowering s/l's ....within apa guidlines of course. accurate s/l's depend on accurate scorekeeping and lo's assimilating the info they see before them instead of just transfering numbers from a scoresheet into the database.
as you know ....new players start at a 4 unless they are known player. one night a friend of mine shows up with a new player on her team, when we are playing her.
i say ...damn you got him on your team...i have known the guy for years and he is a pretty good player. i tell her she needs to put him down as a 6 ...at least. she states the rules say all new players start as a 4 and she did not know how good he was .
so we compromised and agreed to start him as a 5. our lo inputs data weekly and as a result of this players 1st match he was raised to a 7 before his 2nd match the next week.
i once had a team mate go from a 6 to an 8 during 9 ball ltc's. after anihilating a 7 in his 1st match 18-2.
i am not answering for cellophane because i really don't know the answer. i will say this though.
i play in 5 apa divisions.....in 3 of those divisions our lo plays on my team....he does not show up every night though because sometimes he visits other divisions. if you were to ask him anything about how the handicapping system works he will tell you he can not answer that. however ...one night he let a lil tidbit slip.
he came in and sat down and i said ....hey i see you raised me to a 6 in 9 ball this week. he said yea ...you have ben on a roll. that match where you skunked that 4 in 6 innings is s/l 7 territory. i told him that was an unusual night. i was making 2-3 balls every break....always had a decent shot at the next object nall and was getting good on the next shot almost every time. then my break started sucking again after that match...we both laughed at that.
having been a captain for the last 3 years on most of the teams i am on let me give you some advice.
1. i used to get frustrated like you about certain players handicaps but not anymore. now i just worry about my own players handicaps. i have found that most players i thought were under handicapped eventually went up.
2. keep an accurate score sheet. mark every inning and every safe. all too often i have seen people fail to do those two simple things. the scorekeepers are busy on their phones or talking to some one.
3. if you have good reason to suspect some one is sandbagging fill out a handicap review form. those forms are provoded in your scoresheet packet every week. if they are not provided in your area ask your lo for one or write down ona sheet of paper all the pertinent information.
your name and member number
your team name
the date of the incident
the person in question name and member number
his teams name
the reason you think he is sandbagging ...missing too many easy shots . give details of certain shots ..etc
4. dont get discouraged if you take the above steps and that person is not raised the next week....it takes more than one incident or one person complaining.
If everyone knew the formula............ they would all know how to sand bag to keep their SL low..............
Stop worrying about it an just play pool............
Kim
Our scoresheets don't show it, but the APA handicap system tracks your handicap to the tenth point fraction.
You could wonder why as a 4, losing hill-hill to a 5, get bumped up the following week. The system could have you tracked as a 4.9 who won all his/her games in 2-3 innings. The 5 could be a 5.1 who has been losing the majority of his/her matches. So, I don't think win/loss record matters as much as winning in tracking your performance.
No handicap system is completely perfect, or fool proof. You'll always find someone who will gain the system, and cheat. Overall, its appears to work for over 250K people playing on a weekly basis for the last 20-25 years.
You could wonder why as a 4, losing hill-hill to a 5, get bumped up the following week. The system could have you tracked as a 4.9 who won all his/her games in 2-3 innings. The 5 could be a 5.1 who has been losing the majority of his/her matches. So, I don't think win/loss record matters as much as winning in tracking your performance.
No handicap system is completely perfect, or fool proof. You'll always find someone who will gain the system, and cheat. Overall, its appears to work for over 250K people playing on a weekly basis for the last 20-25 years.
I meant 16: as an S/L 5 (in the example) your applied score as a 5 is 4.0 per game, you won 4 games so regardless of how many innings you actually play you get credit for a maximum of 4 innings per game - 4 games times 4 innings per game = 16 innings. The S/L's are (from what I understand) broken down into 10th's, for example an S/L 7 would be 0.0 to maybe 2.1 (or maybe it's 1.7, I really can't remember), and S/L 6 goes from 2.2 to 3.8, the numbers that I'm giving are arbitrary as they were in the example that I gave but you get the idea. Certainly (I believe, as lorider indicated) LO's have the ability to influence a S/L and I'm pretty certain that like any other organization with a large membership or population people are reduced to mere numbers and sometimes they just fall through the cracks. The system is not infallible and if you're not the one entering the information how do you know it gets updated as often as you think it does, but for the most part I think it's really pretty accurate. The best advice I think anyone can give you would be to just play and not worry about it. As an APA member you are really at it's mercy and even the best sandbagger can't really control it though some may claim they can. The fact is that very few APA player can really claim to be good enough to effectively sandbag, and if there really are any they wouldn't want to. If you give your best effort and keep score accurately the s/l's will be accurate and be aware that your best effort will differ from night to night for any number of reasons. I can't stress this enough, just play and don't worry about the s/l, it is what it is and it's out of your hands. If people call you names and accuse you of cheating then the chances are that you're already in their head and half the battle is already won.
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