APA Rules Question

N

NeZ

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I play in a 9 ball APA league on Monday nights. A situation came up last night that I'm not quite clear on from the rules regarding frozen balls.

The rules state that the opponent must declare that the ball is frozen and the player must agree before the shot for the frozen ball rule to be in effect for that shot.

My question, can a coach or someone else on the team declare the ball frozen or does it have to be the player that is in the match?

In this case there wasn't really time for me to pull the player aside, explain the situation, and have her declare the ball frozen.

The player she was against was an 8 so I didn't worry too much about it figuring he knew the rules but then he played an illegal safe (if the ball had been declared frozen) so I'm wondering for future matches if I could have just stopped him and made sure he understood the ball was frozen even though I wasn't in the match.
 
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The opponent must declare the ball frozen prior to the shot attempt!

NeZ said:
I play in a 9 ball APA league on Monday nights. A situation came up last night that I'm not quite clear on from the rules regarding frozen balls.

The rules state that the opponent must declare that the ball is frozen and the player must agree before the shot for the frozen ball rule to be in effect for that shot.

My question, can a coach or someone else on the team declare the ball frozen or does it have to be the player that is in the match?

In this case there was really time for me to pull the player aside, explain the situation, and have her declare the ball frozen.

The player she was against was an 8 so I didn't worry too much about it figuring he knew the rules but then he played an illegal safe (if the ball had been declared frozen) so I'm wondering for future matches if I could have just stopped him and made sure he understood the ball was frozen even though I wasn't in the match.
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The captain / coach can tell his player to check if the ball is frozen just as they can tell them to mark their pocket in 8 ball but the player must actually make the declaration!
 
You say that the 8 played an illegal safe - illegal according to the rules, as he didn't jack up 45 degrees on the cue ball, I assume - but did you let him get by on it? Or did your player get ball in hand as she should have?
 
ScottW said:
You say that the 8 played an illegal safe - illegal according to the rules, as he didn't jack up 45 degrees on the cue ball, I assume - but did you let him get by on it? Or did your player get ball in hand as she should have?
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I believe the OP is talking about a ball being frozen to the rail, not another ball. There's no rule in the APA saying you have to jack up 45 degrees (or in any rules that I know, come to think of it).

MrLucky is correct - the coach can tell his player to check if the ball is frozen to the rail.

-djb
 
Hurm. I coulda swore the 45-degree bit was an actual rule. But, I just looked through the APA 8/9ball rules online and didn't find any reference to it.

It may well just be a local league operator rule. *shrug*

The OP says "frozen" but not to what (other ball or rail). Be nice to know. :D
 
DoomCue said:
I believe the OP is talking about a ball being frozen to the rail, not another ball. There's no rule in the APA saying you have to jack up 45 degrees (or in any rules that I know, come to think of it).

MrLucky is correct - the coach can tell his player to check if the ball is frozen to the rail.

-djb
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The object ball was frozen to the rail. Instead of hitting the object ball and driving it to another rail or sending the cue ball or another ball into a rail per the frozen ball rules, he just tapped the object ball with the cue ball. It would have been a foul had the object ball been properly identified as frozen prior to his shot.
 
NeZ said:
The object ball was frozen to the rail. Instead of hitting the object ball and driving it to another rail or sending the cue ball or another ball into a rail per the frozen ball rules, he just tapped the object ball with the cue ball. It would have been a foul had the object ball been properly identified as frozen prior to his shot.
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YOU need to declare it frozen...That will stop the shooting until the other player agrees or an impartial party decides.

If you call it frozen and nothing else is said or done except for the shot you mentioned the result is BIH.

Edited to add...
If I were on that ball I'd check it to see it were frozen myself...its just the right thing to do imo.BUT its not outside of the rules for the shooter do what he did given the way the rules are written and your lack of action....just a little less then honorable imo.
 
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NeZ said:
The object ball was frozen to the rail. Instead of hitting the object ball and driving it to another rail or sending the cue ball or another ball into a rail per the frozen ball rules, he just tapped the object ball with the cue ball. It would have been a foul had the object ball been properly identified as frozen prior to his shot.
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You have to be especially careful of better players sometimes. Unscrupulous players exist at all levels, and while you assumed your player's opponent was a good player and therefore should know the rules, you made a mistake in thinking he would actually follow the rules or not take advantage of your player's lack of recognition of the situation and/or rules. Of course, there is also the chance he didn't know about the frozen ball rule....

I've seen similar situations to this. For instance, I saw a fairly high-ranked player foul by not hitting a rail after contact. He was playing a league newbie and just let the newbie play it as it was (newbie didn't know it was a foul - he was used to "bar" rules). When I talked to this player, he said the newbie had to learn, didn't he? :rolleyes:

I hope you spoke to your player to let her know the rule and what she should have done (and of course, you now know that you could've done something in this case as well).

-djb
 
if the ball is frozen to the rail after the cueball completes a hit either the cue ball hits a rail- can be same rails as ball is frozen to- or another rail or the object ball must be driven to another rail...

to do this the ball must be declared frozen and if the above doesn't happen it's ball in hand...
what i woulda done is called off the shot and came to a ruling before allowing to shoot... if it's your player- it's not a time out it's a rules question... the players must declare it frozen or not... the coaches can argue but ultimately i think the players have to come to agreement..but as the coach you can bring it to the forefront right away...
my .02.........
 
Thunderball said:
YOU need to declare it frozen...That will stop the shooting until the other player agrees or an impartial party decides.
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I wasn't playing in the match though, I was scoring for another player on my team. It happened fairly fast and she was on the other end of the table so there wasn't time for me to grab her and explain what was happening in order for her to declare the ball frozen.

So my original question was, could I, as a coach/teamate, have declared the ball frozen or does the player in the match have to do it.

From one reply upthread it sounds like the player has to make the call.
 
http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

From the rulebook PDF:

d. The object ball is frozen to a rail and the player is
contemplating playing a "safety." In order for the
"frozen ball" rule to be in effect, the opponent
must declare the ball frozen and the player should
verify. Once it is agreed the ball is frozen the
player must drive the object ball to another rail (of
course, it could hit another ball, which in turn hits
a rail) or drive the cue ball to a rail after it touches
the object ball. If the latter method of safety is
chosen the player should be sure to obviously
strike the object ball first. If the cue ball strikes
the rail first or appears to hit both the rail and ball
simultaneously, it is a foul unless either the cue
ball or object ball went to some other rail.

Unfortunately there's nothing obvious (see below) in there that says anything about the opponent's coach getting involved.

Seems to me, however, that it's in the best interest of every player out there to know the rules of the game, so they can know what to be watching for and say "let's check if that's frozen before you shoot" or somesuch. Your player's opponent may well have been counting on your player's inexperience and knew just what he was doing.

But, also from the rulebook PDF:

ONLY THE PLAYER OR THE COACH MAY
OFFICIALLY CALL A FOUL although anyone may suggest
to the player or the coach that a foul should be called.

I'd interpret that as saying the coach could call for a frozen-ball check. But that's just me.
 
DoomCue said:
you made a mistake in thinking he would actually follow the rules or not take advantage of your player's lack of recognition of the situation and/or rules.

-djb
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This is very true. The same player later used a jump cue in the same match. Our division is pretty laid back with mostly lower SL players so we hadn't encountered this before. I thought it may be illegal but none of us had the full rule book and he made a big thing about it being legal.

I checked the rules today and they clearly state that jump cues aren't allowed.

I'll definitely watch this guy in the future.

He is really good and would have no problem beating most everyone within the rules so I'm not sure why he doesn't follow them more closely. He may just not know them well.

In this match it was an 8 against a 2. Our 2 isn't very good at all so she had no chance. He beat her 65 to 6 and she was lucky to get the 6.
 
NeZ said:
This is very true. The same player later used a jump cue in the same match. Our division is pretty laid back with mostly lower SL players so we hadn't encountered this before. I thought it may be illegal but none of us had the full rule book and he made a big thing about it being legal.

I checked the rules today and they clearly state that jump cues aren't allowed.

I'll definitely watch this guy in the future.

He is really good and would have no problem beating most everyone within the rules so I'm not sure why he doesn't follow them more closely. He may just not know them well.

In this match it was an 8 against a 2. Our 2 isn't very good at all so she had no chance. He beat her 65 to 6 and she was lucky to get the 6.
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You really should have your team captain contact Brad Hall, the league operator and discuss what happened with the jump cue. His number is on the local APA website. He's very good at handling these things in a constructive way that keeps everything positive.

To answer your first question, there would have been no foul commited by you if you asked one of your teamates to stop play and either get the player, captain or designated coach to check if the ball is frozen, whether you are the captain or not. The captain is not responsible for supervising every minute of all the matches and this is a procedural thing that anyone can jump in on similar to reminding a player to mark the pocket on the eight ball, if you are playing eight ball of course.

That jump cue thing is weird. If it was not the same cue that he was playing with, or was a cue that can be, or was, broken down specifically designed for jumping, then it would have been a foul.

Always keep a copy of the league handbook readily accessable. Either in your cue case, in you car if it's parked nearby, whatever. The league handbook is more detailed in the rules than the rulebook is. There's no reason to go ego to ego over what a rule is or isn't. It's quite alright to take a timeout to look a rule up if needed, and if the rulebook doesn't answer the question, either call the league operator, or if you can't get a hold of him, try to come up with a solution that's fair for everyone and move on. Flip a coin if you have to. :D
 
I thought the rule on jumping had been changed to allow any full-size cue (despite being a break/jump cue) for jumping, as long as it remains full size - i.e. can't remove the butt-end.

I don't see anything in the rulebook or league book PDFs on that, though. It appears pretty much unchanged, i.e. you must use your playing cue to jump with.
 
ScottW said:
Hurm. I coulda swore the 45-degree bit was an actual rule. But, I just looked through the APA 8/9ball rules online and didn't find any reference to it.

It may well just be a local league operator rule. *shrug*

The OP says "frozen" but not to what (other ball or rail). Be nice to know. :D
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In one of the APA books, I think it's ref guidelines about calling fouls. They talk about the frozen ball rule (cue ball and object ball frozen) and raising the cue and how a lot players want a double kiss foul called BUT that it is NOT a foul because it is so hard to call a double kiss that it's better to just not call anything about a double kiss.
 
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ScottW said:
I thought the rule on jumping had been changed to allow any full-size cue (despite being a break/jump cue) for jumping, as long as it remains full size - i.e. can't remove the butt-end.

I don't see anything in the rulebook or league book PDFs on that, though. It appears pretty much unchanged, i.e. you must use your playing cue to jump with.
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The rule includes any cue specifically designed for jumping so I can't see how switching cues for a jump shot, unless maybe it was a random house cue, could be interpreted as anything but specifically designed for said activities.:D

There was a thread on this a while ago with someone from the APA being quoted on it. The language in the rule book is a little muddy. It might be one of those inbetweeners that's up to the league operator at best.
 
i wonder if it would also be considered a coach, I mean if there are more of his balls on the table other then the frozen ball, that might look like a hint for what ball he should shoot.
 
ScottW said:
http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

From the rulebook PDF:

d. The object ball is frozen to a rail and the player is
contemplating playing a "safety." In order for the
"frozen ball" rule to be in effect, the opponent
must declare the ball frozen and the player should
verify. Once it is agreed the ball is frozen the
player must drive the object ball to another rail (of
course, it could hit another ball, which in turn hits
a rail) or drive the cue ball to a rail after it touches
the object ball. If the latter method of safety is
chosen the player should be sure to obviously
strike the object ball first. If the cue ball strikes
the rail first or appears to hit both the rail and ball
simultaneously, it is a foul unless either the cue
ball or object ball went to some other rail.

Unfortunately there's nothing obvious (see below) in there that says anything about the opponent's coach getting involved.

Seems to me, however, that it's in the best interest of every player out there to know the rules of the game, so they can know what to be watching for and say "let's check if that's frozen before you shoot" or somesuch. Your player's opponent may well have been counting on your player's inexperience and knew just what he was doing.

But, also from the rulebook PDF:

ONLY THE PLAYER OR THE COACH MAY
OFFICIALLY CALL A FOUL although anyone may suggest
to the player or the coach that a foul should be called.

I'd interpret that as saying the coach could call for a frozen-ball check. But that's just me.
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After all these posts, I'm glad someone had enough sence to just go to the book, and end the speculation.

If you play APA, you should know the rules. Here they are:http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf

PP25, section about coaching section 11 under "General Rules" is probably the most abused and misunderstood area of the game.

Telling someone (anyone at any time) they are shooting the wrong category of ball is NOT a foul.

Neither is telling someone to check to see if a ball is frozen, to chaulk up, or that a foul has occurred.

Instructing someone to use "high right English" when they have no timeouts left, well, that's a different story.

Again, know the rules.

I'm a new team captain, and I refuse to argue with people about anything. I just go to the book, or call the league operator on the cell phone, or she is a lot of times present.

Enjoy you night out playing APA, not arguing when nobody knows what the heck is going on.
 
Hi,
I am new to posting on this forum, but have been a "lurker for a long time".

As Gregg and others posted only the coach or player can call a foul, but for as long as I have been playing it has been anyone can ask if a ball is frozen before a shot. If the question is asked then it is up to the players to look at and agree upon. If they cannot agree then it goes to the coaches to agree on.
 
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Gregg said:
After all these posts, I'm glad someone had enough sence to just go to the book, and end the speculation.

If you play APA, you should know the rules. Here they are:http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf

PP25, section about coaching section 11 under "General Rules" is probably the most abused and misunderstood area of the game.

Telling someone (anyone at any time) they are shooting the wrong category of ball is NOT a foul.

Neither is telling someone to check to see if a ball is frozen, to chaulk up, or that a foul has occurred.

Instructing someone to use "high right English" when they have no timeouts left, well, that's a different story.

Again, know the rules.

I'm a new team captain, and I refuse to argue with people about anything. I just go to the book, or call the league operator on the cell phone, or she is a lot of times present.

Enjoy you night out playing APA, not arguing when nobody knows what the heck is going on.
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some people might not keep the rule book in their pocket and just come on here to ask a question. But I guess you do, goto the first rule which is gambling :
Definition of Gambling
Gambling Any betting or wagering,
for self or others,
whether for money or not,
no matter how slight or insignificant,
where the outcome is uncertain
or depends upon chance or "skill"
constitutes gambling.
what do we do now?
 
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