APA scorekeeping; safeties

[Celophanewrap]

The intent of the shooter is often known only to the shooter so though it probably shouldn't be, deciding a shot was a defensive shot is very subjective. Ultimately, if the score keeper thinks it's a safety, then it is.
Playing in NTC a few years ago I was keeping score and sitting directly across the table from the other teams scorekeeper. Every time our player missed she marked a defensive shot offering up her reasoning as, "he could have made that shot". So I went back and marked a safe for every inning for their player, she got pissed. "What are you doing?" she asked. "All those shots your player missed were makeable shots"
Yeah, yeah, yeah, two wrongs.... and all that stuff, but what did I care, I was never going to see these people ever again. We argued, I refused to budge.
People have asked me if my shot was a defense what I have began to say is if you think it was one then feel free to mark it down as one.
I think that after saying something like if the shooter wasn't trying to play offense (or make a shot) then he was playing defense and expecting score keepers to go by that. there are additional things that a score keeper must be able to evaluate on the spot. There are several elements to a defensive that the score keeper should be able to recognize. Like did the shooter "really" try to not make a ball? Was the intent to leave the incoming shooter in a bad spot? Was any advantage gained (or if the shot was properly executed) by the shooter? I'm sure there are more. As it is now, marking defensive shots is pretty much subjective and left to the discretion of the score keeper.

 

[jeffj2h]

Who knows and who cares. Everyone is undercounting defense shots. APA should just drop the Equalizer system, and it's counting of innings and defense shots, and adopt Fargo.

 

[GARY LLOYD]

Kicking with out the intent to pocket a ball...

What I have found to help people understand is this explanation... Why were you kicking to just hit the ball and make legal contact? Usually the response is I did not want to give you ball in hand... I reply then you were defending against giving up ball in hand right?There for it is a defensive shot and should be marked accordingly...

Usually the second they make the connection to defending against ball in hand... The light goes on and even the most adamant of players then agrees it was a defensive move... Even if they had never believed it to so in the past...

I hope this helps someone in the future to explain it and get all on the same page and marking score sheets consistently and correctly...

 

[AceAngeles]

Defense

Who knows and who cares. Everyone is undercounting defense shots. APA should just drop the Equalizer system

Everything is subjective. We have a league operator that controls a larger area. Plus he is busy with other things. Does he do a good job.... He doesn't stress or try to stress the defensive scorekeeper issue as much as he should. Obviously it effects the whole area and the system in general. If 90% of the teams in our area don't come close to marking correctly and you do it for your team, you are hurting your team. It's common in our area for a score sheet at the end of the night to have only 5-10 defensive shots marked (many times less). It's screwed up but one person shouldn't be the sore thumb and hurt their own team by being righteous when 90% of the other teams don't do it. Sorry no guilt here. Integrity is important but this falls completely on the league operator who is earning the money an is in the best position to correct things.

 

[AceAngeles]

attempt

If your intent was to try to make the ball then clearly it is not defensive. However, if you call it but never try to get an angle or hit it hard enough to even come close, then I would mark it.

Subjective... for me it doesn't make sense. I understand that that is what the rules says. I'm not sure how much thought was put into it. I think the rule should say "if the shooter does not make an attempt to make an obviously makeable ball it will be determined to be a defensive shot since no attempt was made to pocket the ball." It's still subjective for the score keeper but it makes more sense. Efren Reyes makes a 2 rail kick shot to hit his ball after he was snookered (hidden), does the commentator say "that was a great defensive shot"? No, he says that was a great hit because there was no obvious possible shot to be made/pocketed. That is just a dumb rule made for the masses who may lack common sense to determine if the shot was makeable or not. A defensive shot is and should be a shot when someone misses on purpose or tries not to make a ball on purpose (an obviously makeable shot) in order to put his/her opponent in a more difficult position. As stated earlier unfortunately most scorekeepers on teams are players that may lack experience or have a lower skill level because the team captain / coach / higher skill level player is concentrating on watching the player shoot in order to determine when to use a timeout.

 

[Banks]

Subjective... for me it doesn't make sense. I understand that that is what the rules says. I'm not sure how much thought was put into it. I think the rule should say "if the shooter does not make an attempt to make an obviously makeable ball it will be determined to be a defensive shot since no attempt was made to pocket the ball." It's still subjective for the score keeper but it makes more sense. Efren Reyes makes a 2 rail kick shot to hit his ball after he was snookered (hidden), does the commentator say "that was a great defensive shot"? No, he says that was a great hit because there was no obvious possible shot to be made/pocketed. That is just a dumb rule made for the masses who may lack common sense to determine if the shot was makeable or not. A defensive shot is and should be a shot when someone misses on purpose or tries not to make a ball on purpose (an obviously makeable shot) in order to put his/her opponent in a more difficult position. As stated earlier unfortunately most scorekeepers on teams are players that may lack experience or have a lower skill level because the team captain / coach / higher skill level player is concentrating on watching the player shoot in order to determine when to use a timeout.

Some people already aren't marking them and you stated previously that you intentionally do not mark them to keep up/down with the other teams. What difference do semantics make in a situation where the known rules are skipped on purpose? Seems many people don't have a hard time understanding the rule. Now, those that understand and refuse to follow are another matter. You basically admit to cheating while saying others have no common sense. Also, i doubt Efren is just flailing at a ball without purpose in mind.

 

[pogmothoin]

Some people already aren't marking them and you stated previously that you intentionally do not mark them to keep up/down with the other teams. What difference do semantics make in a situation where the known rules are skipped on purpose? Seems many people don't have a hard time understanding the rule. Now, those that understand and refuse to follow are another matter. You basically admit to cheating while saying others have no common sense. Also, i doubt Efren is just flailing at a ball without purpose in mind.

I agree and the team I'm on has made a conscious decision to play by the rules.We have been burned in the LTC's by obvious sandbaggers so we know what the consequences are and we have paid for playing by the rules that others don't follow. We've lost really good teammates because they got raised up while others of similar abilities have remained the same for years. We've discussed it as a team and it still doesn't matter to us, you either have integrity or you don't.

League operators could perhaps do a better job of explaining the rules to all players and empowering their DR's to take a more active role. To simply point a new player to a youtube video and hand them a rule book is probably insufficient to ensure proper score keeping.

The bottom line though is that the APA game is played for fun by most. If you are so intent on scamming your way through your matches I can't believe you're having much fun. There's just not enough money in it to make me want to go through that.

 

[lorider]

I agree and the team I'm on have made a conscious decision to play by the rules.We have been burned in the LTC's by obvious sandbaggers so we know what the consequences are and we have paid for playing by the rules that others don't follow. We've lost really good teammates because they got raised up while others of similar abilities have remained the same for years. We've discussed it as a team and it still doesn't matter to us, you either have integrity or you don't.

League operators could perhaps do a better job of explaining the rules to all players and empowering their DR's to take a more active role. To simply point a new player to a youtube video and hand them a rule book is probably insufficient to ensure proper score keeping.

The bottom line though is that the APA game is played for fun by most. If you are so intent on scamming your way through your matches I can't believe you're having much fun. There's just not enough money in it to make me want to go through that.

You and.a few others....notably banks and cellophane.get it. Others...not so much
.
Contrary to what people.may believe each and every apa member can help prevent sand bagging.

You can stat by teaching every one who keeps score what to look for as far as safeties go.....even low level players can learn.

As a few have stated...score sheets do not have to match..let me tell you...i have had a few instances where opposing captains copped an attitude when they go to sign my score sheet and they safeties marked on their players. I stood my ground when a few said to take them off or argued their were not as many as I had marked
even had one refuse to sign my score sheet.

Another thing....if you see some one as d bagging...write it up..our area provides handicap review sheets..if yours does mot write it on a sheet of paper and attach it to your score sheet. Don't just gripe.or complain someone was shooting better than their handicap.. Every one has those nights. Give specifics on exactly what that person was doing to make you believe that they were sandbagging

The lo's are all the time getting complaints about the other person is under capped or your player is over handicapped and usually takes those complaints with a grain of salt
.if you and others in your area believe some one is samdbagging and give legitimate reasons for.your belief the lo.will look into it unless he is one of those that could.care less.


I am not one to go complaining to my lo.because I know everyone has good.and bad nights. She i do see some one not in lime with their handicap I do relay it to my lo..

This past session I started a team on a new night. Our 1st night we faced a team where I knew most players from playing them in other divisions onw particular played on that team I did not know but I knew from watching his match that he was under rated.that night I tct my lo.amd told him what I thought

He.asked me what made me think that and I gave him specific and detailed situations that arose in that match.

He said that team was in tricups that weekend and I sounded like.he needed to watch that particular player. The following.week I saw that player had been raised..so yea...you can make.a.difference ic you go by the rules and.take.appropriate steps on stead of just whining about it.

 

[Skippy27]

Subjective... for me it doesn't make sense. I understand that that is what the rules says..

As I good and very intelligent player I am able to see intent fairly well and will mark it accordingly whether they agree or not will not be debated.

It's screwed up but one person shouldn't be the sore thumb and hurt their own team by being righteous when 90% of the other teams don't do it. Sorry no guilt here. Integrity is important but this falls completely on the league operator who is earning the money...

As far as your suggestion to cheat because other people cheat and you are hurting your team goes.... that is just stupid. You can't control their integrity, but you can control your own and by the sounds of your posting "Sorry no guilt here", you have little of it.